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TullyAckland

Player Experience & Self-Policing Suggestion Thread

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 We want betrayal, we want treachery, we want spies.

 

No, what you want is a risk-fre betrayal and treachery. As a player, what are you risking if you fail at this? Nothing, some gear, a spot on KOS list, and a trip to resser. The guild risks a great deal more.

 

If you want to infiltrate someone you need to put something on the line. That something should be an account with some effort spent on making it belivable. If you fail, that account is likely useless. This is appropriate risk. If you succeed, you get a great deal of reward (assets, bank contents, and so on).

 

Risk vs. Reward should be reasonable, or guild won't recruit.

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I get what you are saying, but its not hard to create a bunch of parachute accounts and do a thing, its just going to make it harder for players with one account to ever get in anywhere because a guild they were in once a year ago might make them suspect


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No, what you want is a risk-fre betrayal and treachery. As a player, what are you risking if you fail at this? Nothing, some gear, a spot on KOS list, and a trip to resser. The guild risks a great deal more.

 

If you want to infiltrate someone you need to put something on the line. That something should be an account with some effort spent on making it belivable. If you fail, that account is likely useless. This is appropriate risk. If you succeed, you get a great deal of reward (assets, bank contents, and so on).

 

Risk vs. Reward should be reasonable, or guild won't recruit.

I'm pretty sure if I screw over a guild or player, their tears will flow into the forums and every communication medium they have. This isn't like a new gameplay style, this happened way before APIs and guilds handled it.


☆ We are in a positive posting drought, so just post. Be the change you want the forums to be. Go wild. Just follow your positive posting star. ☆
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500+ posts in this thread?  Might as well add in another ;)

 

TL;DR - Repeated killing, hunting, making life miserable for another player through death and general game tom-foolery should not be considered griefing.  Player policing outside of internal guild policies will be difficult to maintain because there is no real bright line test outside of very specific racial slurs.  Creating a game bent on death and destruction while also saying mean words aren't cool is strange.  Real life and game life need to be separate.  The fires of conflict are a necessity to develop strength in mind, body, and spirit.  And for the love of god, put together some really good guild management tools because those tools can be the crux to solving this whole "policing" problem.    

 

Long Version Below

To start, definitions -

  • Griefing - Repeatedly killing another individual and/or prevent another individual from accomplishing their tasks in a game world.  For example, corpse camping in UO for 3 hours is griefing. 
  • Verbal Abuse - Taunts, mockery, insults, jokes, etc directed at another individual or group of individuals.
  • Harrassment - legal, varies by state/country on both civil and criminal levels.  In game terms, I consider this to be legitimate hate speech (race/gender/sexuality) with intent of hate.  Many times it relates to characteristics of an individual they cannot control, like race, gender, or sexuality.  But intent needs to be there, IMO.  Otherwise it's just.....
  • Stupidity - What 90% of the vocal playerbase has in any game, including Crowfall.  

As ACE has said, PKing people is to be expected. Repeated PKing of people is to be expected.  Corpse camping is to be expected (more on that later).  So far, so good.  

 

Cheats, hacks, etc will not be tolerated.  Still good thus far.  

 

Player self-policing ideas.......... not working out so well because of three big reasons.  

  1. Unlike real life, there are not multiple levels of appeal or even evidence checks.  Hearsay breeds distrust, discontent, and abuse.  
  2. Also unlike real life, there are no consequences.  The worst thing that happens is you get banned and lose the time/money invested in the game.  In real life, the worst thing that happens is jail time and potentially making the rest of your life much more difficult.  
  3. Human beings are greedy and selfish by nature thanks to our mammalian heritage and Darwin's theory of evolution pushing us to be the best no matter how that happens.  As such, any self-created system in a game without the checks/balances of the previous two statements will be tailored to appease those creating the system and those who will look for any loophole possible to get ahead.  

As has been stated, the basic functionality of /ignore and /block and the like solves many problems people may have with other individuals.  But at the end of the day, it is really, really important to note that we are the ones that can choose to be affected by words and we're also stubborn and stupid enough to not use the /ignore features in games.  Furthermore, we as humans have lost a lot of our innate ability to judge intent.... and intent is the absolute crux between jest and hate.  This is both IRL and IGL.  

 

Words and language are mere constructs used to convey abstraction of the infinite universe into a finite reality for someone else to understand.  They can be made up, they can be misused, and they can be misspelled all while still conveying that abstraction.  Whether I drop a dozen F-bombs or continually bash someone over genital size because they rolled and guinecean while I rolled a centaur, there needs to be freedoms in speech in the game.  This involves me mocking and bashing others along with them being able to mock and bash me.  And then when we get together on a podcast or conference we can smile and acknowledge each other's skill with both pen and sword, much like the real great warriors of past ages did.  

 

In a game about skill, that means skill on all levels, including psychological.  For all the people who remember UO, EQ Rallos Zek, AC1 DarkTide, DAOC, and SB, there was real conflict and challenge between guilds.  The "old school" guilds like LotD, TheMercs, Sinister, Disciples of the Dark Hand, The Regulators, Nurfed, and others was the stuff of legend.  The verbal abuse across games and forums would make most players these days cry.  Seriously, we made people cry and quit.  I'm sorta proud of that, but also not.  At the end of the day, all "joking" and "gaming" aside, there was respect and acknowledgement between these old school PvP guilds.... at least between those that didn't depend on hacks/cheats to succeed :)

 

That abuse also forged us in many ways.  LotD's leaders (for example) have been through crazy amounts of verbal back and forth along with hundreds of thousands of kills and being killed in PvP.  It can be rough for new players who expected a cushioned, protected existence free from the malice and suffering that fills the world.  But absolutely nothing will make that go away, not even giving humanity immortality.  There will always be something that pushes a button and, honestly, sometimes some "wrath" is needed in order to get people on the right track.  IRL this can involve both words and fists.  And, just like IRL, it takes a helluva lot of wisdom and courage to execute at the correct time in the correct place.  As such, people without the awareness of their actions on a macrocosmic level fail.  

 

That's a sign of skill just as much as button mashing, feinting, and mocking someone's mother.  

 

In a game with guineapig bipeds, centaurs, and minotaurs, is racial pride or racial mockery going too far?  If I use a lot of clever cow/beef/fat analogies to insult a minotaur player's mom, is that ok?  Or because it could be perceived that I'm really insulting that player's mom by calling them a "fat cow sweet pea who gives milk to any bull that tosses her a copper" and, thus, not be allowed?  This is important because there is no bright line test (from a legal standpoint) for where to draw the line.  Thus, everything really should be addressed on a case-by-case basis with a broad perspective of events at hand, much like our IRL legal system (flawed as it may be).  Mob rule and mob appeasement is usually not a good thing.  

 

The John Gabriel Greater Internet super ninja Theory is alive and well.  You cannot stop it without stopping humans from being human.   People are stupid and do a lot of stupid things, unaware of their actions and the stupidity of it.  And often times they just don't care.  And for those who aren't ready to face any kind of challenge to their way of life, simple tools like /ignore are enough to prevent that from happening.  

 

As for systems regarding player interactions with other players....

 

Do not go overboard with the API's.  Tracking kills, deaths, etc is fine, but to get to the level of detail where you're tracking individual killers will be incredibly annoying and clunky from a database management standpoint and UI standpoint.  Think of this 1 year down the road after having killed/been killed potentially tens of thousands of times.  We're talking hundreds of millions if not billions (1 million players * 10,000 deaths = 10 billion) of records to manage in the database and then thousand of records that players will have to sort through in the game UI.  

 

There also doesn't need to be a character peak system like WoW, Aion, Diablo 3, etc have because gear is not that important.  If gear were important, then yes, looking at a person's gear and seeing how "the great players" are stacked is beneficial.  But skill is not something that can be taught.  Skill requires a lot of practice, a lot of failure, and a lot of learning.  My seeing Doc Gonzo is wearing bone armor instead of plate means nothing to me if he continually makes me eat dirt.  Even discipline builds won't matter much from a "quick, lookup how they are stacked" perspective.  

 

I wanted to touch on those even though this thread is supposed to be about player self-policing.  A large chunk of the 500+ posts mention it, so might as well throw it out there since I didn't see anyone else consider "infrastructure" as a reason to not go down certain paths :)

 

Now back on topic with player policing.... 

 

AA's jail and other system were brought up as possible options, but also had their flaws shown.  Aside from those flaws, I want to reference something else that most everyone glossed over:  lack of safe zones.  This is an important point because it relates to gameplay and any system we could devise to self-police.  Player tribunals and the like are all dependent on safe zones in order to work.  Otherwise, what happens is LotD crashes every trial, bounty billboard, etc to ruin your days.  And while some might consider that griefing, the idea that there are no safe zones and that this is a PvP-centric game by nature means that you should expect to die anywhere at any time.  Repeated death cannot and should not be griefing, no matter how many bad feels it might give you.  

 

Unfortunately, ACE, the very decisions you made to promote death, destruction, conquering, and combat are the very decisions that will make any game-wide system of player self-policing outside of internal guild structures fail.  But this is not a bad thing!  It just means more freedom, and more creation.  Guilds will need to be top notch, something a lot of newer guilds don't understand.  Forums and word-of-mouth will be used like in the past to mark people for death.  It will be a return to the olden days and it should be glorious :D

 

That being said, here's what you can do...

 

The guild management interface needs to be amazing.  LotD's GM, Hades, has been a huge advocate in the gaming community for improving guild management tools.  Things like ingame calendars, note systems, various levels of permissions, granular levels of permission, resource access control and more.  Because this is a "Game of Thrones" style game, each guild becomes a different kingdom.  LotD might be the Targaryens while another guild might be the Martells.  Both seek domination and both have internal policies to keep their "kingdom" in check.  Giving guilds the resources and interface options necessary I think will be key to "self policing."  

 

Amongst the necessary options to track are KOS lists and guild combat tracking.  If LotD adds Horse Hung (a centaur guild) to their KOS list, track the overall number of kills and deaths between them.  Give guilds this as an option to really take the world by storm.  Allow guild leaders to right-click and add the target's guild to their KOS list.  And make KOS lists shareable between guilds.  This way "policing" happens through player driven guild alliances and guild sharing.  It also tackles another problem related to "leaderboards" and "scoring" games and GvG combat.  Many birds go down with the stone of proper guild management features.  Make use of it.  

 

In Conclusion

 

Players are human and humans are asses, especially in the realm of anonymity without fear of punishment.  Expect a harsh reality, steel yourself for it, and venture forth as the brave, courageous individual you are.  Then, when you're done for the evening, return to the comfort of reality and enjoy it for what it is: a happy existence with friends, family, and love.  Embrace both the dark and the light to truly understand and appreciate the world as it is.  

 

And don't think of guild management last please :)


Gaunsaku

Elder, Lords of the Dead

lotd.org

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I just don't like the idea that it should be fixed on one side because if players had full control there would be slight inconsistencies throughout the judgments, however if customer support took care of it all then I feel like cases wouldn't be explained to the players properly and that customer support trust would be lessened due to "closed door" procedures.

Interesting point. Let CS take care of the judging and call in 2 (random? volunteering?) players as witnesses. That would avoid the closed door feeling and maybe reduce false claims of injustice at the forum.

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I'm pretty sure if I screw over a guild or player, their tears will flow into the forums and every communication medium they have. This isn't like a new gameplay style, this happened way before APIs and guilds handled it.

 

What would stop the reverse from happening? That is, why not try and fail, try and fail... Where is YOUR risk in this?

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What would stop the reverse from happening? That is, why not try and fail, try and fail... Where is YOUR risk in this?

Getting caught?


☆ We are in a positive posting drought, so just post. Be the change you want the forums to be. Go wild. Just follow your positive posting star. ☆
☆:*´¨`*:.•.¸¸.•´¯`•.♥.•´¯`•.¸¸.•..:*´¨`*:.☆

(¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯) Member of the Pro-ACE Club (¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯)

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I get what you are saying, but its not hard to create a bunch of parachute accounts and do a thing, its just going to make it harder for players with one account to ever get in anywhere because a guild they were in once a year ago might make them suspect

 

Parachute accounts take $$$. So you can't endlessly keep trying it, and if you keep failing at it, at least you will be out of some money.

 

I also think you overstate "guild they were in once", in most circumstances this is explainable.

Getting caught?

 

So you are saying rolling another alt is lots of effort? I don't think so.

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So, on this topic: what functionality do you want to see? What would help you?

 

In full brainstorm mode here...

 

I'd want something that would help you all in your decision making when acting on reports of harassment. I'm thinking of a Reputation system where players can do a single commend/rebuke on another player. They can change their commend/rebuke at any time but they can't have any more than one per player. The system would be weighted meaning if someone commended 6 players and rebuked 1 their rebuke would weigh more heavily than someone that rebuked 7 players and commended 0. This could be calculated at downtime to avoid overtaxing resources. It may or may not be visible to the general population but each player could see their own reputation.

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In full brainstorm mode here...

 

I'd want something that would help you all in your decision making when acting on reports of harassment. I'm thinking of a Reputation system where players can do a single commend/rebuke on another player. They can change their commend/rebuke at any time but they can't have any more than one per player. The system would be weighted meaning if someone commended 6 players and rebuked 1 their rebuke would weigh more heavily than someone that rebuked 7 players and commended 0. This could be calculated at downtime to avoid overtaxing resources. It may or may not be visible to the general population but each player could see their own reputation.

That would be a horrible system. Big guilds would just "downvote" everyone they don't like.


7ug90hM.png


 


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Well, atleast you stick with your opinion.

 

I think they should atleast be punished in some way, like have a temporary chat ban if they really cross the line or are reported often.

If you burn their house down and all their friends houses and explain to them why you did it, the peer pressure of his group will do more to alter his behavior than anything rules can do,

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If you burn their house down and all their friends houses and explain to them why you did it, the peer pressure of his group will do more to alter his behavior than anything rules can do,

 

This breaks down if there are ways to be "judgement proof" by having nothing to lose.


IhhQKY6.gif

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Shrug.  Fair enough.  Sorry if I get frustrated when I think there's a really interesting discussion going on about a really huge feature and people (not singling any person out) instead seem to just post comments that derail the discussion or drastically twist words around.  But, I guess I'm forgetting that this is the internet, and that's usually just a sign that the discussion is no longer going anywhere.

 

I'll just shut up here until there's something new brought to the table.  No sense feeding the beast.

I will put the quietus to this argument once and for all........CF will have ancient technology, the most advanced thing on any of the worlds is a black powder pistol.  Taint no computers.  Have to get all yer info the hard way.  Eve obviously had high tech, but this aint Eve.   

 

Damn, next you guys will be wanting go carts so you can get around faster.

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...the most advanced thing on any of the worlds is a black powder pistol.  

 

Ugh, you are making me want to revive the Guinea Pig pistol debate.

 

Must....resist....

 

20100216-stains.jpg

Edited by cemya

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Ugh, you are making me want to revive the Guinea Pig pistol debate.

 

Must....resist....

OHHHHHH, just walk away.     Plz.   


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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And let me be clear, all of these, even though harmless, should be private and only shared on consent.

 

There's no such thing as private stats tracking. If ACE exposes stats to anyone, even just the tracked player, you will be in situations where you have to share those stats (via screenshot or private API key) for access to desired social groups. At that point, "private" stats are just a formality.

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