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aceofclubs

Gamepad Support - Gamepads As First Class Citizens

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meh,

 

I think players should be allowed to play the way they want.. The pc has the means for controllersupport, so why not?

Players using a controller is just another lootbag and should be allowed to die and give me their items.

 

Limited resources (capital & labor) is a justification to drop features that are insignificant of importance.

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Limited resources (capital & labor) is a justification to drop features that are insignificant of importance.

 

Very true.

They should only add additional hardware features if they have the resources to do so.

VR was a special case, since Unity already has support for it, so they only need to some basic work to implement it into the game.

 

Changing the entire UI of the game and make everything work with gamepads is a much larger task.

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Changing the entire UI of the game and make everything work with gamepads is a much larger task.

Except nobody is talking about changing the UI; which is something a moot point anyway, since the UI doesn't even exist yet. This is why it's important to talk about gamepad support right now, at Crowfall's earliest stages of development. So that the game can develop with innovate controls directly in mind; which is to say, seeing the development of gamepad support right alongside keyboard and mouse controls. There have been a few MMORPGs like FFXIV that already make good use of gamepad support at a competitive level. While just about every other PC genre has already seen gamepad support integrated years ago. Heck, even Valve is working on a controller of their own, acknowledging that a keyboard and mouse isn't always the most effective way to play a game. As such, there's no reason at all why Crowfall shouldn't see gamepad support, it's a sound idea that stands to benefit the game substantially.

Edited by Kintor

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Except nobody is talking about changing the UI; which is something a moot point anyway, since the UI doesn't even exist yet. This is why it's important to talk about gamepad support right now, at Crowfall's earliest stages of development. So that the game can develop with innovate controls directly in mind; which is to say, seeing the development of gamepad support right alongside keyboard and mouse controls. There have been a few MMORPGs like FFXIV that already make good use of gamepad support at a competitive level. While just about every other PC genre has already seen gamepad support integrated years ago. Heck, even Valve is working on a controller of their own, acknowledging that a keyboard and mouse isn't always the most effective way to play a game. As such, there's no reason at all why Crowfall shouldn't see gamepad support, it's a sound idea that stands to benefit the game substantially.

 

But we are talking about a small company here.. FFXIV was developed by a very large team and had quite a large amount of money put into it.

FFXIV have two skill UI's that you can change ingame, that twice the work for a single UI artist that ACE probably has.

 

I'm not saying you guys shouldnt have gamepad support, in my post above I stated I agree with you. I am just being a little realistic that ACE might not have the funds to do this at launch, but perhaps later down the road when they have the resources to allocate into adding additional UI stuff.

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But we are talking about a small company here.. FFXIV was developed by a very large team and had quite a large amount of money put into it.

FFXIV have two skill UI's that you can change ingame, that twice the work for a single UI artist that ACE probably has.

 

I'm not saying you guys shouldnt have gamepad support, in my post above I stated I agree with you. I am just being a little realistic that ACE might not have the funds to do this at launch, but perhaps later down the road when they have the resources to allocate into adding additional UI stuff.

Interestingly enough, FFXIV: A Realm Reborn is a game that is fortunate to be even made. The original version of FFXIV was a dismal failure, lacking the charm of its predecessor FFXI, low interest from gamers lead to the MMORPG's cancellation. Yet, in an unprecedented move, a small but passionate team with Square Enix sought to resurrect FFXIV; they rebooted the game and fixed many of its issues. As a result FFXIV is now one of the most popular MMORPGS on the market; there's even an expansion pack scheduled for release later this year.

 

I mention all this to illustrate that even the biggest of publishers have to contend under tight budget constraints, where every team has to do the most they can with the limited resources they've been allocated. In this respect, I have every confidence that ACE is fully capable of delivering Gamepad support right alongside the rest of the game. It’s far better now to develop gamepad support before the UI is finished. Any effort to turnaround and try to add Gamepad support later will only prove to be a far greater drain on ACE’s resources, in the always difficult post-launch months no less.

Edited by Kintor

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Interestingly enough, FFXIV: A Realm Reborn is a game that is fortunate to be even made. 

The difference is that at this point Square Enix could make more than a few flops prior to bankruptcy, whilst Artcraft can only make one.

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The difference is that at this point Square Enix could make more than a few flops prior to bankruptcy, whilst Artcraft can only make one.

The profit margins for the big publishers in this industry are a lot narrower than you might believe. The failure of any AAA game can cost a publisher dearly, to say nothing of the consequences towards the development team who bears the direct responsibility for that failure. So, it's overly simplistic to pretend that a publisher the size of Square Enix is immune to market conditions; their games need to make a profit just like everybody else. Nevertheless, ACE is in a good position with Crowfall, they've raised well over the target $800,000 goal, plus any other money that ACE's management has directly contributed towards the development of the game. As such, I say it's quite reasonable to be talking about gamepad support right now, especially since devoting time to this feature now will save money in the long run.

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Very true.

They should only add additional hardware features if they have the resources to do so.

VR was a special case, since Unity already has support for it, so they only need to some basic work to implement it into the game.

 

Changing the entire UI of the game and make everything work with gamepads is a much larger task.

If it was so easy, why even bother making it a stretch goal?  I mean it should have been in by default by the way you talk.  And controller support in a PC game being more a niche than VR is laughable,  check out SteamOS the Steam Controller and get back with me if you think they haven't done their research.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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If it was so easy, why even bother making it a stretch goal?  I mean it should have been in by default by the way you talk.  And controller support in a PC game being more a niche than VR is laughable,  check out SteamOS the Steam Controller and get back with me if you think they haven't done their research.

 

When did I say controllersupport in a pc was more niche than VR?  I'd like a qoute pls.

The strechgoals were mainly goals they already were going to put in the game later on, but wasnt a priority for the Core Module. They have said this several times.

 

Like I've said multiple times now, if you console players want your controllers, I'm fine with it. The pc supports it, so why not. I'll still gank you just as easy if not easier than a m/k player anyways.

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When did I say controllersupport in a pc was more niche than VR?  I'd like a qoute pls.

The strechgoals were mainly goals they already were going to put in the game later on, but wasnt a priority for the Core Module. They have said this several times.

 

Like I've said multiple times now, if you console players want your controllers, I'm fine with it. The pc supports it, so why not. I'll still gank you just as easy if not easier than a m/k player anyways.

When you agree with "Very True.", to a statement that calls [controller support] a "feature insignificant of importance", yet don't seem to have the same feelings about VR implementation than the sentiment is implicit if not explicit.  If this is not your sentiment than I apologize for misrepresenting you.  However, others who have argued against controller support seem to be ok with VR's niche status within a niche game.  VR might not remain niche, and may in fact be an emerging trend, but controller support is an already established trend.  Again if you don't believe me do some honest research into SteamOS and the Steam Controller, because I think there are more and more PC gamers using controllers for a variety of reasons, reaction speeds aside.   

 

On that note, I think people still overestimate the pace of Crowfall's yet untested combat and assume you are going to need FPS aiming speeds to be competitive.  There will be no headshots as far as I know, the hitboxes will be much more generous than those in a FPS because of melee combat; likewise, the pace of combat due to any number of constraints such as cool downs, animation locks, and resource management, will be much slower than a FPS and allow plenty of time to aim a reticle with a thumb stick. 

 

Trust me this thread is tiring for all involved, the difference is that those in favor of controller support feel like they are being told to shut up and be a quiet minority.  I see the attacks against controller support getting a lot more personal.   Make your case to the devs not us, this is a suggestions thread in a suggestion forum, yet they always devolve into an anti-suggestion threads because their is always some other feature, stretch goal, suggestion that should take precedence when it comes development time and money.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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Trust me this thread is tiring for all involved, the difference is that those in favor of controller support feel like they are being told to shut up and be a quiet minority.  I see the attacks against controller support getting a lot more personal.   Make your case to the devs not us, this is a suggestions thread in a suggestion forum, yet they always devolve into an anti-suggestion threads because their is always some other feature, stretch goal, suggestion that should take precedence when it comes development time and money.

 

I understand where you are coming from.

The SB crowd that rule this forum does not like change, and would be happy if ACE released SB 2.0.

 

The PC supports controller, and I agree it should be implemented atleast if they want VR to be a thing (I dont like VR).

All I was arguing for was the budget of the game, and if ACE would have the resources to make two UI's, which would be twice the work for the UI designer and programmers working on that feature.

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I understand where you are coming from.

The SB crowd that rule this forum does not like change, and would be happy if ACE released SB 2.0.

 

The PC supports controller, and I agree it should be implemented atleast if they want VR to be a thing (I dont like VR).

All I was arguing for was the budget of the game, and if ACE would have the resources to make two UI's, which would be twice the work for the UI designer and programmers working on that feature.

Fair enough.  Thanks for being civil.  Though I would like to argue against the notion that you have to have two completely separate UI's. 

 

Most games including MMOs that offer both types of controls (most of the 3D Elder Scrolls games including Skyrim, DCUO, FFXI, FFXIV) are able to use 90% of the UI for both purposes.  If a UI is designed with controllers in mind, it is in fact "the" UI, used for both sets of controls, the only thing I am suggesting that would need to be different would be the hotbars (and that's assuming there is some sort of icon driven hotbar sytem).  If they let the user arrange each skill/icon on screen individually (instead of fixed linear banks of 10 skills) to create custom layouts and then save them and lock their X,Y that would be good enough for me.  Most games let you reposition and resize UI elements, I hope no one will rail against that functionality, so why not do the same for individual skills and free us from the hotbar.  You could then lay you skills out radially, linearly, in a cross pattern or multiple cross patterns, or like this ( + ) on either/both sides of the target reticle so you can keep your focus on the center of the screen. 

 

Regarding the SB crowd:

While it's usually good to have a community that is monolithic because it generates loyal customers, it can be as restrictive on the developers as the board of directors at a major corporate publisher.  Even though the game is being designed to fill a niche that doesn't mean you wouldn't want to appeal to the largest percentage of that niche without compromising on core gameplay. 

 

What blows my mind, is that people think a game this early in development, that will likely see many many iterations to combat before it's all said and done, is already so rigid in its core gameplay that they can definitively say controllers are contrary to the games core and that somehow gamepads will result in a "dumbing down".  If I wasn't sold on the core gameplay advertised I wouldn't have backed it in Kickstarter, and I will play Crowfall with KB&M if necessary, but playing with controller makes games (for me) more comfortable, more enjoyable, more relaxing, and more convenient.  Will controllers make me a more competitive gamer, no, but that's not the point, if winning was everything we'd all turn our graphics settings down until the game looked like mud, play on tiny screens so we could see all the action at a glance, and move somewhere we could get fiber optic internet service.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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 if winning was everything we'd all turn our graphics settings down until the game looked like mud, play on tiny screens so we could see all the action at a glance, and move somewhere we could get fiber optic internet service.

 

*raises hand*

 

:rolleyes:

 

I play CSGO on 4:3 res and on lowest settings.. I've always turned down foilage/graphics in mmos, because its usually a distraction and makes the environment more cluttered. And more FPS means better reactiontime.

But then again, I am not assuming people are as ocd about pvp as me, so its not like I am asking ACE to change anything.

 

About controllers:

Would'nt the UI have to change more than 10%, since you would have to be able to use the controller to check/change settings/inventoy/quests etc?

I've played alot of FFXIV, but not with a controller, so I wouldnt really know how the different UI windows operate with a gamepad.

Edited by zinnie

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I usually try to tread a balance between pleasing aesthetics and fps.  I find in most competitive games that I turn off: shadows, foliage, post processing, motion blur, bloom, depth of field.  But I likes me some high res textures and AA on the models and environments.  In PvE games, I turn everything on.


"Food for the crows..."    Nobuo Xa'el

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*raises hand*

 

:rolleyes:

 

I play CSGO on 4:3 res and on lowest settings.. I've always turned down foilage/graphics in mmos, because its usually a distraction and makes the environment more cluttered. And more FPS means better reactiontime.

But then again, I am not assuming people are as ocd about pvp as me, so its not like I am asking ACE to change anything.

 

About controllers:

Would'nt the UI have to change more than 10%, since you would have to be able to use the controller to check/change settings/inventoy/quests etc?

I've played alot of FFXIV, but not with a controller, so I wouldnt really know how the different UI windows operate with a gamepad.

Kind of a loaded question since you say "change" but the truth is the UI is stilling being designed and wouldn't need to be "changed" if it was designed correctly from the ground up with controllers in mind, that aside I can still answer that question.  Most GUI's can be navigated with a system called focus.  It's the same in Actionscript, Java, Python and other scripting languages.  Each UI element is assigned a unique spot in the hierarchy and that hierarchy can be unique to each window and there are hierarchies for cascading windows.  This is what allows you to navigate websites or electronic forms using the "tab" key, you are essentially cycling through the focus hierarchy in the order predetermined at the time of UI creation.  To make the system work with controller you give them a way to cycle (forwards and backwards) through UI elements they want to interact with, usually by opening a menu (same as hitting ESC in most MMOs) selecting the window you want to open and then cycle the contents within the window. 

 

FFXIV has a very complex but full functioning UI that looks the same for both input methods (with exception of the hotbar configuration but not functionality), it allows for multiple windows to be open simultaneously, tabs within windows, and right-click sub menus to allow for quick operations like moving items to storage, sorting inventory, equipping/un-equipping, selling to vendors, buying stack quantities, and myriad other options specific to that game.  This right-click functionality is identical for controller and mouse, mouse just also gives you the added option of drag and drop, but I don't miss it and I find it's slower to drag items around the screen with a mouse for operations like selling, buying, equipping, and setting actions to my hotbars, but to each his own (or at least that's the way I'd like to have it).  Obviously the buttons needed to navigate menus, inventory, etc., will need to be shared with combat, so it's unlikely you'll want to open your inventory in combat, but this is probably good advice anyways and not a problem unique to controllers.  You can't be sorting your inventory and fighting simultaneously with a KB&M either.  Their UI also allows pretty much everything to be mapped to the hotbar including emotes, equipment changes (out of combat use only), item use, and even hotbar swapping so you can move between hotbars without opening windows.  Did SE make a big investment in its UI? I am sure it did, but I doubt it doubled the cost to add controller support because they had to have a UI regardless, and some of the things I mentioned above that were added to ease play with controller still benefit KB&M users. 


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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Far from breaking-up the community, as you put it, having more controller options that to gamepad support will allow a greater variety of people to play the game and help the community grow. I mean, it's not as if all keyboard and mouse set-ups are equal; yet there's no distinction amongst players between those who use cheap Microsoft peripherals and those who spend hundreds of dollars on the latest Razer products. This same sense of fairness should be extended to gamepads as well; let the player choose how they to control the game and decide the rest on a PVP battlefield later. After all, Crowfall is not a FPS, there's nothing special about a keyboard and mouse which makes it ideal for an action MMO. There are actually plenty of MMOs, like FFXIV, that already have competitive level gamepad support; so there is already precedent for Crowfall to use gamepad support as well.

 

Well, the part about breaking up the community was referred to shooters, one of the reasons in the past why gamepad vs mouse was always split (mouse get a huge advantage).

 

FFXIV is not a great example either, since it's an MMO that was designed from the ground up to be a console game first, PC game second. I remember the mouse and keyboard control and UI being actually poor. Same thing happened with PSO, it was designed to be played through a gamepad. Now, it's not like Crowfall can't follow suit and design it based around gamepads, but that can be limiting per se.

 

Again, we don't have enough info yet on combat system or amount of skills. However, I'm sure it'll be more healthy to design it around a PC game first, and then add gamepad support, if possible. That said, if they can add it after the core engine is ready, then great, more power to those players that prefer it. 


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Through the Hunger and Darkness, might our Light shine through...


- (Future) Character name: Ydriel -

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Well, the part about breaking up the community was referred to shooters, one of the reasons in the past why gamepad vs mouse was always split (mouse get a huge advantage).

 

FFXIV is not a great example either, since it's an MMO that was designed from the ground up to be a console game first, PC game second. I remember the mouse and keyboard control and UI being actually poor. Same thing happened with PSO, it was designed to be played through a gamepad. Now, it's not like Crowfall can't follow suit and design it based around gamepads, but that can be limiting per se.

 

Again, we don't have enough info yet on combat system or amount of skills. However, I'm sure it'll be more healthy to design it around a PC game first, and then add gamepad support, if possible. That said, if they can add it after the core engine is ready, then great, more power to those players that prefer it. 

Wow, equip yourself with some facts first please.  FFXIV was out on PC for over a YEAR, before coming to PS3, and was almost three years old before coming to PS4.   Did they design it from the ground up with controllers in mind, yes, but not as a "console game first, PC game second".  I played 1.0 and the UI was clunky but not because of controllers, and I find nothing poor about FFXIV:ARR's keyboard controls or UI atm; in their functionality they are pretty standard fare for most MMOs, only the UI does double duty, because of its smart design.  But you just made the case that if you want first class controller support it needs to be integrated from the ground up.   Crowfall isn't a shooter, not by a stretch, an aiming reticle does not a shooter make.  If you think this game will come down to twitch aiming I bet you'll be disappointed. 


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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Wow, equip yourself with some facts first please.  FFXIV was out on PC for over a YEAR, before coming to PS3, and was almost three years old before coming to PS4.   Did they design it from the ground up with controllers in mind, yes, but not as a "console game first, PC game second".  I played 1.0 and the UI was clunky but not because of controllers, and I find nothing poor about FFXIV:ARR's keyboard controls or UI atm; in their functionality they are pretty standard fare for most MMOs, only the UI does double duty, because of its smart design.  But you just made the case that if you want first class controller support it needs to be integrated from the ground up.   Crowfall isn't a shooter, not by a stretch, an aiming reticle does not a shooter make.  If you think this game will come down to twitch aiming I bet you'll be disappointed. 

You are definitely right about the lack of twitch-aiming, if the sample videos are any indication. It seems like it'll be a smooth, more fluid style of fighting, which is far from anti-gamepad. Again, I still prefer a mouse and keyboard myself, but if they decide to make Crowfall gamepad-compatible, I fail to see how it affect my style of gameplay. I've seen people say things like "it'll gimp the control" and "It's the same as dumbing it down", but I play DCUO and that has a wonderful compatibility for gamepad (I tried it out myself), but I still prefer KB&M because it works better for me. Under no circumstances have I ever thought that DCUO was dumbed down or bad for KB&M players simply because it has great gamepad controls.

 

Likewise, I've played FFXIV:RR (on KB&M, not gamepad) and it was alright. I didn't like the game much so I didn't stick with it past the free trial, but not because of shoddy gameplay. If anything I thoroughly enjoyed killing things, I just got tired of hunting boring, random mobs (such a typical MMO thing, sadly). Nothing about the UI screamed inefficient, and if you're right and it was built for controller as well (if I misunderstood anything involving this, forgive me), then I'd say it worked out just fine.

 

But likewise I have NO idea what the devs have in store and can not predict their plans without much more information than what's given right now. I have no idea if they're gonna make something that works with controllers or if they're making a KB&M game. If they're making something with both in mind, then I have no problem with that because previous experience says that's not a bad thing. DCUO and FFXIV:RR have fantastic UIs despite (or because of) being accessible to both forms of control. If they pull off something similar to that, then it doesn't matter what controller you use, you're gonna have an awesome experience.


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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I feel the shortcomings of gamepads have been well documented by this thread, though they don't convince me that controllers won't be suitable for Crowfall.

 

However, what about the things gamepads can do that cannot be done by KB&M?

 

1.  Smoothly transition from walking to running and back to walking using an analog stick.  This might sound like a small thing but in a game about physics, momentum, and objects with mass, characters that start off at full gait and stop abruptly will look awkward.  KB&M inputs are binary in function, you are either pressing or not pressing the WASD, and so keyboard controls usually require a separate button press to toggle run/walk.

 

2.  Gamepads more distinctly separate character movement from camera direction.  

 

Example: With a controller I could run my character directly towards the camera or pivot the camera to look behind my character while maintaining movement; granted, some games still lock the camera in relationship to the character, that is a choice made by devs and not a limitation of gamepads.  To accomplish the same thing with mouse and keyboard I would have to right-click (or w/e enabled free look) and then pivot the camera 180 degrees until I was looking at my character from the front, which is a subtle difference.  To add this functionality some games have keybinds that temporarily flip your camera to look behind you, which is functional but often disorienting.  If somebody knows differently or has seen different implementation in KB&M games let me know.  

 

3.  Almost all gamepads provide force feedback, and while force feedback on mice is possible it is uncommon.   Force feedback won't matter to some players, but I think it would be a blast to have for the voxel part of the game; things like mining, tunneling, and breaking objects.   Even force feedback on successful blocks or parries.  

 

4.  They future proof the game, to be released on more platforms.  I expect this to be highly contentious, so let me just say I am not endorsing or evening dreaming of a console version, but if the devs are even remotely considering it they would be hamstringing themselves by not supporting it upfront during development.  

 

Crowfall is initially a game for Windows PCs. As for other platforms:

 

We expect that if a Macintosh has Windows compatibility and a 3d Graphics card it will work. We are not planning a native client at this time. Other OS variants such are Linux are not being considered at this time.

Realistically, as a small company with a game for a relatively small audience, we won’t be able to afford to support multi-platform clients.

Console is not completely out of the realm of possibility, but it is not a current priority, and would require separate funding.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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I think gamepad is a great idea, to really define the character classes. I made a post on the Steam Controller thread also, trying to detail what the uses of a controller will offer. We really need to define these things, in order to make things work as intuitively as possible. Also keep in mind, ranged combat will take a hit. So thinking of ways to compensate them, for the Mouse loss is also a goal. Though the game could support, both Keyboard and Mouse, I think it's easier to support one. That way you can tell, when people are cheating easier, or when bots are made also.

 

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