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nesogra

Why Not Make 'insert Controversial Mechanic Here' Optional Advantages/disadvantages?

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While this is a response to the telegraphing topic specifically I feel the same approach could apply to other topics such as friendly fire hence the title and apologies if someone else has already posted this idea.

 

The basic idea is this, if there is a mechanic that lowers the skill floor of combat like telegraphs either require players take an advantage to turn on those features or give players disadvantages that turns them off.  This way those players who want these features can have them while making the builds of those who opt out of them more powerful because the latter have more points to work with.

Edited by nesogra

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I think CF would be lag-infested with either of these being optional. But if the creation point (ccp) optional model doesn't slow down the game and isn't open for exploits, it would be fine to do this. Otherwise Yes to FF and No to telegraphs.

 

I would also like to see Shade added to the list of creation runes. This way human archetypes can be modified to fit these sub-races. We already have half-giants and half-demons (Nephilim) possible.

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Here are my suggestions.

 

Imaginary - Become invulnerable to damage and earn the ability to craft and ride flying mounts, in addition, other players that mute or ignore you will no longer be able to see you or be affected by your abilities. 

 

Special - Earn the ability to generate materials in your EK, all structures in your EK become unfunctional, materials may not leave your EK, and all other players can no longer see structures inside your EK.


How Can Mounts Add to the Crowfall Experience?  Caravans, Hunting Boars, and more.

 

How Complex can Mining be in Crowfall?  Mining difficulty, fatigue, infrastructure.

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Seems like a copout when it comes to making an actual decision for the game.

 

Annoying kid from Barakamon hits the nail on the head. It's really just the same as before where they said you could turn off the telegraph textures.

 

It's not a choice, or not a meaningful one. It's already been clear (to the devs as well) that telegraphs for all attacks isn't the way to go, why are people still discussing this?

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Annoying kid from Barakamon hits the nail on the head. It's really just the same as before where they said you could turn off the telegraph textures.

 

It's not a choice, or not a meaningful one. It's already been clear (to the devs as well) that telegraphs for all attacks isn't the way to go, why are people still discussing this?

 

:( She's a qtpie.

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:( She's a qtpie.

 

Oh yeah she grows on you.

Like an itchy fungal infection.

(I'm sad that series is over)

 

I wouldn't want to be in the Dev's shoes by the way, they've got some really tough decisions to make, and they will displease some people with those choices, no matter what. And they already accepted that fact. The telegraphs thing, these forums have been fairly vocal about though. So it shows they do listen, if our voices make sense at least. Which a lot of times, they don't. Tough job.

Edited by Osegrim

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Why not make 2 games on one lean game budget?

 

The real problem with using ground telegraphs and than turning them off is that quality design for the gameplay as a whole is going to be made based on how players react to information. You make a game that works around a specific kind of information, than turn the information off, and now it's a totally different game, that's like having a football team where some players have an isometric viewpoint of the field on a mini visor and than others don't, it's a totally different game based on the information provided.

 

If the pace and exchange of combat are designed with readable animations, the game doesn't need ground telegraphs, looking at Vindictus or Monster Hunter, learnable tells and good recognition work better without paint all over the ground.

 

In a game designed with and FOR ground telegraphs, you could just turn them off, just like you can turn off the reticle in a shooting game, but it's still gonna be a game designed to play around those telegraphs or reticles, and the omitting players can't enjoy surpassing other players in free aiming because their playing against players who aren't even using the same system.

 

Would you play football without pads just because you don't like pads, even if everyone else can wear pads? Better player or not, your gonna get trashed, without pads is a totally different game, your better off playing Rugby with rules designed without the pads, the two don't belong together.

 

Now, look at Wildstar and Tera, and tell me, without telegraphs in Wildstar, how many other things are different in gameplay because it's a game designed to work with telegraphs...

 

Identical games, except the telegraphs, no? The kind of information given is closely tied to how the game plays, this is why third and first person are not directly interchangeable, and why I don't appreciate Oculus Rift for a third person game, why ground telegraphs or lock animation are coupled with different kinds of gameplay or information, and why you can't just make alternate game features well without compromising related features and content.

 

That and budget, making two totally different systems is wasteful, if Wildstar gameplay is so good, enjoy Wildstar... It's already available :-/

Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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The real problem with using ground telegraphs and than turning them off is that quality design for the gameplay as a whole is going to be made based on how players react to information. You make a game that works around a specific kind of information, than turn the information off, and now it's a totally different game, that's like having a football team where some players have an isometric viewpoint of the field on a mini visor and than others don't, it's a totally different game based on the information provided.

 

If the pace and exchange of combat are designed with readable animations, the game doesn't need ground telegraphs, looking at Vindictus or Monster Hunter, learnable tells and good recognition work better without paint all over the ground.

Build the game around combat that doesn't require telegraphs but give people who want it the option of using them at the cost of gimping their build...  If the attack has clear animations that tell you where the attack is going to hit then placing a little circle or cone on the ground doesn't change anything about the combat other than making the attack easier to read.  Readable animations are telegraphs without the ground paint.

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Build the game around combat that doesn't require telegraphs but give people who want it the option of using them at the cost of gimping their build... If the attack has clear animations that tell you where the attack is going to hit then placing a little circle or cone on the ground doesn't change anything about the combat other than making the attack easier to read. Readable animations are telegraphs without the ground paint.

If your talking about a skill that players can access via trade offs to see hidden information, than its not really the same, and.they'd be better off seeing more unique information.

 

A system can be designed with a featured tacked on even though it doesn't belong, but the question is whether it's a better game for it, I mean laser sights have been around for ages, but how many shooter games put them on everything? There is a certain level of challenge appropriate for a system along with the gameplay it incorporates.

 

For those that want animated tells, they don't want any half @ss option that would serve to make the game playable without doing the animations right. Various other issues like floor paint becoming meaningless in large groups and ensuring there's an even playing field, and the best choice simply becomes to do one thing right than do two things "okay".

 

This kind of publisher mindset is the source of many bad games, where it's not clearly evident which things were done wrong, but apparent that universal appeal derailed a game from being great at something specific.

 

Again, a lean game budget. If they had the budget, best compensation for different appeals would be seperate campaigns for different features, but there's a limit to how many practical game modes you can run on such a campaign system.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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My problems with only animation telegraphs:

1) Fps tanking:  If the fps drops low enough animation tells are useless as by the time someone can see enough of the animation to tell what the attack is it's too late to do anything about it. This isn't a problem in smaller fights as players can just turn the settings down until they get a decent frame rate but as more and more players join a fight there comes a point where no matter how low the settings are fps will tank for that player.

2) Small avatar advantage: Some archetypes will likely be harder to read simply because their size means there is less real estate to work with when making animations (hence why I'm pulling for team gerbil right now).

 

Character size doesn't affect ground telegraphs and they can still function at cinematic frame rates because players only have to see one frame to know to move.  As for the entire floor being covered just make the 'paint' more transparent with a bright edge (like aoes in gw2) so when many are on the ground you can just move from the spots with tons of circles to the dimer areas to take less damage.  If you have ideas for handling these concerns I would love to hear them.  I just gravitate towards ground telegraphs as a solution for a very simple reason...  Since many aoes place textures on the ground along with animations and effects I would hope using that code to place one of a few very plain art assets would be very inexpensive in terms of both developer time and money.  Especially since we've already seen a version of the game with that ability.

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Frame rate is something the game optomization and technology will have to face, it is a 2017 game on a new engine, and they already said the game probably won't run on low end computers, even though the graphic fidelity is lower.

 

As for being able to see and tell attacks, that's more a combat choreography concern, attacks and defense don't have to work around highly reactive defense, in a game with collision, you may not have the option to move out of the way anyway, and when your being attacked by more than 2 players, it's not practical to rely on timed blocks anyway, because the opponent can just sequence their attacks to strike in sequence so even if you could block every time a single player struck, you'd just get hit between every block anyway. Trying to emphasize FPS in light of the actual situation you meet in a saturated battlefield is fairly misdirected.

 

As for using outline telegraphs rather than block telegraphs, that's really not that useful either, it's still going to be a mesh of lines, and the same problem as above applies, in a dense battle with collision, you won't be able to move, or you'll just move into another opponents attack. That's why I feel that every archetype should be able to avoid and block to different extents, with some being far better at one or the other, but at least able to attempt to respond in immobile defensive manners, "Wildstar" movement and telegraphs are poorly designed for organized combat.

 

If... they designed combat to be more tactical, you could defend yourself to one extent or another with any weapon, and not just timed block, instead of spending most of the time attacking, one could focus on remaining defensive and attack when beneficial, attack while defending, attack in cooperation with others to defeat opponents defense, or attack under more effective circumstances which circumvent an opponents defense. Battle does not have to be "how are we going to use this occasional dodge or block to avoid dozens of attacks based on viewing animated tells or ground telegraphs"... Unless they make it that way, which would be dumb.

Edited by BahamutKaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I think CF would be lag-infested with either of these being optional. But if the creation point (ccp) optional model doesn't slow down the game and isn't open for exploits, it would be fine to do this. Otherwise Yes to FF and No to telegraphs.

 

I would also like to see Shade added to the list of creation runes. This way human archetypes can be modified to fit these sub-races. We already have half-giants and half-demons (Nephilim) possible.

 

 

Just a technical note here: Projections do absolutely nothing as far as network lag is concerned. Your client has to receive info that X actor is performing Y action already. The just adds one additional special effect on the visual effect that is triggered (client side). On the graphics side. There really isn't a lower requirement visual effect than a 2d projected texture on the ground. While this certainly wouldn't be absolutely zero change in performance, each of these will take an order of magnitude less processing power than (for example) the sparklies falling off of an enchanted weapon. With or without projections in a given scene *might* have a performance decrease of 1%. IE you would see 1 fps loss if you were operating at 100 fps.You really couldn't even make edge cases where people went from playable to non playable when you are talking about such a small difference. (20.2 fps isn't actually more playable than 20 fps).

 

Now. If you want to make an argument for why the telegraphs would be bad: Point at the obvious that there would be dozens of these on the ground in a fair battle. That will get very ugly very quickly as far as visually.

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While this is a response to the telegraphing topic specifically I feel the same approach could apply to other topics such as friendly fire hence the title and apologies if someone else has already posted this idea.

 

The basic idea is this, if there is a mechanic that lowers the skill floor of combat like telegraphs either require players take an advantage to turn on those features or give players disadvantages that turns them off. This way those players who want these features can have them while making the builds of those who opt out of them more powerful because the latter have more points to work with.

You're late. Art craft is going with the less twitch (skill) system in favor of TERA style reticle and animation lock. I'm extremely skeptical but always hopeful they'll change their mind after they realize their orginal concept was far better


 7d4g0V5.png

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"Now. If you want to make an argument for why the telegraphs would be bad: Point at the obvious that there would be dozens of these on the ground in a fair battle. That will get very ugly very quickly as far as visually."

 

Care to provide the alternative


 7d4g0V5.png

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"Now. If you want to make an argument for why the telegraphs would be bad: Point at the obvious that there would be dozens of these on the ground in a fair battle. That will get very ugly very quickly as far as visually."

 

Care to provide the alternative

 

I am actually fine with them, I was just pointing out that his argument as of WHY they were bad had obvious faults, when there was a easily noticed criticism he left out. 

 

As an alternative: you can omit telegraphs from some abilities. Melee character frontal arcs: every player already knows every melee character is going to be swinging in front of them, unless it is a persisting effect, or unusually large arc this is just clutter (and will be a lot when 4/5 melee are piled up). Any spell that is instantaneous and doesn't leave lasting effects doesn't need a telegraph. All it does is serve to say "this spot was hit" and doesn't really give the option of dodging or avoiding it.  Finally making telegraphs limited to certain abilities gives more developer options. If you want a super ultra fireball from space, it telegraphs for a few seconds first, meaning you can also make this do more damage. Maybe a hunter, assassin or other character which may use stealth has an ability (shot from the dark) which shoots an arrow in a line without any indication.

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I think there needs to just be one consistent and focused combat design. There's not room for multiple different systems without making it convoluted.

yep this.

 

Plus fact is no one in their right mind would purposely gimp themselves and let others have an advantage outright. Any system where there is an option isn't really an option, it'll be mandatory to use.

Edited by pang

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