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Where's The Long Term Character Progression?


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***PLEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING***

 

I AM NOT ASKING FOR a continuous power climb. ***BUT***  most people like the sense of achievement that character progression gives. Without it I fear for the longevity of Crowfall.

 

This is the type of problem GW2 has that was never addressed. (despite many posts, myself included, more than a year before launch)

 

A good example are Realm Ranks from DAOC. They took years to progress and gave a small amount of character power but at the end of the night you still felt like you progressed your character.

 

 

 

In Crowfall we can:

 

- Select an Archetype with Advantages & Disadvantages

 

- Chose a Promotion class

 

- Select Disciplines

 

- Passive Training

 

 

The above is NOT deep character progression.

 

- You could spend time experimenting but, if you know what you want its going to be fast.

 

- Your Eternal Kingdom is not character progression. Especially not for people who aren't interested in it.

 

- Gear will not give long term progression because of degradation, timed campaigns and crafters need turnover.

 

- Playing a different character is the opposite of what I'm talking about.

 

 

 

Being "fun" is NOT enough. (Progression is "fun" for some people, myself included, so you cannot discount this because you disagree). I had a ton of fun in GW2 (and other games) leveling many characters to max before I stopped playing because it felt pointless. 

 

Another example is how people feel about their character in World of Warcraft. The time and effort they have in their characters gives them immense value and meaning. If my character in Crowfall is the same as a relatively new character wheres the value and meaning in that? 

 

 

I hope to see more information on character progression sooner rather than later or never.

Edited by ziz

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You're making assumptions that you will gear up to best in-slot immediately and be done, that's far from true and the fact that items decay means that constant gear upgrades and replacements are neces

I was going to ask the same thing.. 

A long time!   Specifics TBD. 

How can you make this claim? How do you have any clue how 'fast' it's going to be to get your ideal disciplines and full armor?

 

How do you not see this?

 

The fact you can go from completely naked to geared, dead/broken, regeared, etc. etc. within a 3 month campaign shows how fast it can be.

 

And when I've been playing the Alpha for a year...Day 1 Launch, I will spend ZERO time experimenting.

Edited by ziz

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There is no meaningful character progression in Crowfall, at all. Since it is essentially entirely passive, any progression made is done by the computer automatically, not you. And even there, "progression" is quick.

 

Crowfall is not designed as an individual character/individual player RPG focus. It's a casual / hardcore hybrid group based arena simulator. Which can still be fun for what it is, but don't try to change it. Believe me, I spent many weeks trying to discuss it here, but no one cares for meaningful progression. They just want fun 24/7. All dessert, no vegetables. 

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How about social conquest progression?

 

The main hook of this game is social interaction and kingdom building. Building a huge kingdom or collaborating on building one seems to be the long term progression in this game.

 

Think about it, can a man continue to make significant strides in strength and fighting power? Or is his power multiplied fastest through his estate and position in society?

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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There is no meaningful character progression in Crowfall, at all. Since it is essentially entirely passive, any progression made is done by the computer automatically, not you. And even there, "progression" is quick.

 

Crowfall is not designed as an individual character/individual player RPG focus. It's a casual / hardcore hybrid group based arena simulator. Which can still be fun for what it is, but don't try to change it. Believe me, I spent many weeks trying to discuss it here, but no one cares for meaningful progression. They just want fun 24/7. All dessert, no vegetables. 

 

Thank you for trying, people need to realize this is going to kill the game. Its not some MOBA where character progression doesnt matter.

 

When people are playing the same character for months on end with no sense of progression or advancement it get boring.

 

How about social conquest progression?

 

The main hook of this game is social interaction and kingdom building. Building a huge kingdom or collaborating on building one seems to be the long term progression in this game.

 

Think about it, can a man continue to make significant strides in strength and fighting power? Or is his power multiplied fastest through his estate and position in society?

But the devs have said in recent Vodcasts they understand some people wont care about their Eternal Kingdom... so that cant be the only long term progression.
 
And professional athletes, warriors do spend their entire lives dedicated to honing their craft becoming better and better.
Edited by ziz

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I like to think of my combat skill, social behavior knowledge, and mechanics expertise as my character development.  I would compare this to LoL, when you learn about map awareness (And avoid getting ganked 10+ times).

 

If my character dies less and achieves more because of my decisions and knowledge, it makes me feel my character progressed.  Plus gaining skills all the time and trying out new skills will also help (Disciplines swapping).

 

Achievements from Campaigns also makes me feel progression. So the EK are filling a nice role there.

 

You probably won't understand a word I just said though.  If you don't see progression in the current vision, you are going to be one very frustrated puppy.

How Can Mounts Add to the Crowfall Experience?  Caravans, Hunting Boars, and more.

 

How Complex can Mining be in Crowfall?  Mining difficulty, fatigue, infrastructure.

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Thank you for trying, people need to realize this is going to kill the game. Its not some MOBA where character progression doesnt matter.

 

When people are playing the same character for months on end with no sense of progression or advancement it get boring.

 

But the devs have said in recent Vodcasts they understand some people wont care about their Eternal Kingdom... so that cant be the only long term progression.
 
And professional athletes, warriors do spend their entire lives dedicated to honing their craft becoming better and better.

 

 

I don't think I know a single person who quit EVE because the character progression wasn't satisfying enough. You're taking themeparks and comparing it to this when that doesn't make much sense because one of the primary GOALS of themeparks is to have character progression. 

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How do you not see this?

 

The fact you can go from completely naked to geared, dead/broken, regeared, etc. etc. within a 3 month campaign shows how fast it can be.

 

And when I've been playing the Alpha for a year...Day 1 Launch, I will spend ZERO time experimenting.

 

Doesn't mean you'll have the 'best' gear. You ignore that you're competing against other players for the best gear.

 

You also ignore that balance will likely change through patches, etc.

Edited by Teekey

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I understand the progression argument and it may have merit... but all I can tell you is that this game will most likely play like Shadowbane and we didn't need any huge progression. There was too much game and politics going on to worry about something like character progression.  Planning your strategies and sneaking around enemy territory looking for mobs that drop a rune you needed, protecting castles... planning your next deception etc. is what kept most of us going. I would hope that would be enough for this game as well, but hard to say. Would achievements feel like progression to you?  Achievements which gave titles?

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Just because some people won't participate in their EK doesn't mean they'll have an alternative for progression. They can enjoy exploring and fighting and looting, but they aren't entitled to another flavor of long term progression just because they overlook an optional one they have...

 

Asking where it is doesn't qualify an expectation, if they wanted players to get bent on character progression they'd have an active progression system and deep equipment progression.

 

There's a lot of things to enjoy in Crowfall, but there are things they plainly denied for other benefits. Are you prepared to challenge the demands of PvP and society enthusiast with progression entitlement?

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Character progression will be tied to the training system or the passive training system. In Eve Online the character get points over a duration of time based on the skill being trained. Tier 1 skills level faster than Tier 5 skill. Each Tier has 5 levels, Tier 1 Level 5 is faster (generally 3-7 days) than a Tier 5 Level 1 (generally 7-9 days).

 

Eve Online has a skill point counter at the top of the character UI which has all the skill points accumulated as of the time you looked.  My character (as of 5 years ago) had 112 million skill points. My friend (who started 6 months behind me) has 150 million skill points, he kept his character going which I did not.  That is progression in a passive leveling system.  I'm not assuming CF will have total skill points but they'll have something where you can relay that 'power' to others.

 

EO has the same gear degrading (with overcharging) and loss (ship blows up) and character loss (which has implants to decrease time to train). AND it's plausible to lose skill points at character death (if you do not have a clone capable to handle the amount of skill points you have).

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We don't know how many skills will be relevant for a character in a specialization (I brought this up once before). The one detail we know is that it'll take 1 month to become 100% in a skill, and higher than 100% is possible. In six months, a character can have 11 skills at 100% with the tertiary training system.

 

Will that be a maxed out character? What if a arch/discipline/spec has 30 or more skills that are relevant? That would take a year and a half. 

 

Participating in the Campaign Tournaments will be a very long endeavor. I imagine winning one of those will be quite a feat and something to strive for long term. 

 

And then there are all the things you disqualified for some reason: improving your EK; acquiring a large selection of relics; having a pantheon of characters to use; building social reputation.

 

Personally, I'd prefer EKs be removed, and all characters exist only for the length of a Campaign. No progression outside of the Campaigns at all. But that's not gonna happen, and I'll find value in EKs and Eternal Heroes.

Edited by motstandet
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***PLEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING***

 

I AM NOT ASKING FOR a continuous power climb. ***BUT***  most people like the sense of achievement that character progression gives. Without it I fear for the longevity of Crowfall.

 

This is the type of problem GW2 has that was never addressed. (despite many posts, myself included, more than a year before launch)

 

A good example are Realm Ranks from DAOC. They took years to progress and gave a small amount of character power but at the end of the night you still felt like you progressed your character.

 

 

 

In Crowfall we can:

 

- Select an Archetype with Advantages & Disadvantages

 

- Chose a Promotion class

 

- Select Disciplines

 

- Passive Training

 

 

The above is NOT deep character progression.

 

- You could spend time experimenting but, if you know what you want its going to be fast.

 

- Your Eternal Kingdom is not character progression. Especially not for people who aren't interested in it.

 

- Gear will not give long term progression because of degradation, timed campaigns and crafters need turnover.

 

- Playing a different character is the opposite of what I'm talking about.

 

 

 

Being "fun" is NOT enough. (Progression is "fun" for some people, myself included, so you cannot discount this because you disagree). I had a ton of fun in GW2 (and other games) leveling many characters to max before I stopped playing because it felt pointless. 

 

Another example is how people feel about their character in World of Warcraft. The time and effort they have in their characters gives them immense value and meaning. If my character in Crowfall is the same as a relatively new character wheres the value and meaning in that? 

 

 

I hope to see more information on character progression sooner rather than later or never.

 

Eve like training, it will take a long time to learn all the skills needed to do different things. The Devs plan to continually add to this system as well. If the skills alone are anything like EVE there will be plenty of progression.

Also it seams like crafty will be much more complex and meaningful. You will have different "loadouts" or gear you can used based on your skill (and archetype...) so this should satisfy the people who like the more theory crafting/min, maxing/spreadsheet progression. Again this will take a LONG time. I am sure there will be a lot of cosmetic options as well. There will be a lot of things that I feel will show accomplishments or prestige.

 

Then there is the fact you will lose items through being killed or just use. Much like EVE, this gives a economic/progressive loop. 

 

I guess I would ask you what you have in mind. I apologize friend if i am missing the meaning, however all you have said is that there is a lack of progression. What are you looking for exactly. If you compare it to a game like EVE it has all of that and EVE has tons of progression. If you compare it to WOW, well it doesn't have leveling.. Which is a redundant system, not true progression, it also splits the player base and sets a high power curve.  So friend, what are you looking for exactly?

 

I feel like there will be plenty of meaningful permanent things about your character you can get attached. But I feel like you might have some more suggestions? not just statements?

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We don't know how many skills will be relevant for a character in a specialization (I brought this up once before). The one detail we know is that it'll take 1 month to become 100% in a skill, and higher than 100% is possible. In six months, a character can have 11 skills at 100% with the tertiary training system.

 

Will that be a maxed out character? What if a arch/discipline/spec has 30 or more skills that are relevant? That would take a year an a half. 

 

Participating in the Campaign Tournaments will be a very long endeavor. I imagine winning one of those will be quite a feat and something to strive for long term. 

 

And then there are all the things you disqualified for some reason: improving your EK; acquiring a large selection of relics; having a pantheon of characters to use; building social reputation.

 

Personally, I'd prefer EKs be removed, and all characters exist only for the length of a Campaign. No progression outside of the Campaigns at all. But that's not gonna happen, and I'll find value in EKs and Eternal Heroes.

 

Perhaps a possible ruleset for a select few campaigns could be blank character. I'd definitely be down to play a few of those :)

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It seems that it will take about 18 years to train all the skill sin eve to max, assuming they don't add more and you spend alot of money remapping attributes and buying the best implants for the skills your are training at the time. Haha i kinda hope Crowfall is something akin to this.

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A good example are Realm Ranks from DAOC. They took years to progress and gave a small amount of character power but at the end of the night you still felt like you progressed your character.

 

Being "fun" is NOT enough. 

 

RR meant little to me in of itself, the skills granted however were meaningful as they could potentially provide a nice advantage over others. Which doesn't seem to be their plan. Older characters will be more powerful simply due to time and what players have learned and acquired (Disciplines).

 

If they are going for anything like EVE, individual Archetypes should have a decent number of skills to progress. While most of it will be done passively, they've said they want it to still feel like we've achieved something.

 

Being "fun" is subjective. I've played the same FPS games (CS/TF2) for much longer than I've played any MMORPG, simply because I can jump in and out at anytime without being drastically behind, having to purchase 5 expansions I missed, or lacking what is needed to play the game.

 

 

Thank you for trying, people need to realize this is going to kill the game. Its not some MOBA where character progression doesnt matter.

 

When people are playing the same character for months on end with no sense of progression or advancement it get boring.

 

You are right that it isn't a MOBA, but it isn't a traditional MMO(RPG) either. They are going more along the lines of strategy simulator and mixing elements of many "lobby" games into the mmorpg system.

 

Sounds like they will have some sort of universal rankings/standings/tracking/achievements in place either personal or public. Not unlike MOBAs and other such games. These in themselves are that "still feel like you progressed your character" element.

 

I can't speak for "most people" but depending on the game, I can easily play the same character or account without any direct progression visible beyond my skill improving and maybe some stats reinforcing that belief.

 

We really don't know what they have planned but going with "no sense of progression" seems to assume quite a lot. Those that want to "max" out a skill/character might need to focus on one character for months/years. Although there is nothing stopping players from enjoying multiple characters in multiple campaigns if one isn't enough.

 

I don't see any easy way nor something that would fit with their vision that would provide "significant" progress between new and old players where it would "matter" enough. While there is vertical progression, it seems likely to hit a plateau at some point and only those really pushing will keep progressing. Which hopefully will provide enough reward to be worth doing for some.

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It seems that it will take about 18 years to train all the skill sin eve to max, assuming they don't add more and you spend alot of money remapping attributes and buying the best implants for the skills your are training at the time. Haha i kinda hope Crowfall is something akin to this.

 

I don't think Crowfall should have this much skill training time. The way this ended up happening in EVE was the need for different weapon sized skills, passive skills, economy skills, management skills, skills for each ship tier. If anything I think at launch, there should be something like 6-8 years of skills. Granted we don't know enough about the skills to be concluding anything like this, I'm just making a random guess.

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