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Ziz

Where's The Long Term Character Progression?

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Diminishing returns bud... you talk a lot about real life skills and mastery through time and hard work. That is all the light blue line, not the dark blue... certainly not the purple.

 

I'd actually even argue that real life isn't an upward ascending line so much as a flat horizontal one, and truly competitive games favor the flat line over anything progressive.  Flat lines RULE!!!

 

When you pick up Street Fighter, you don't have to grind for epic loot to equip to Guile so he can beat up Bison.  You also don't have to worry about some other player being level 55 when you're still level 12.  You are presented with the skills of the archetype you have chosen and need to master them.  It seems simple but tournaments prove otherwise.

 

Same applies in real life for the most part.  You can pick up a knife and carve some wood, but that guy with the same knife is going to make a masterpiece next to your wooden duck.  You can buy a more expensive knife and maybe a chisel... but is it REALLY going to do JACK to allow you to make anything better than a wooden duck?  Hell no.

 

So the light blue line is indeed the closest to competition's ideal which is the horizontal line while still having SOME progression.

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The problem that comes with this is that, while a new player technically is indeed viable. Not only is the other player at a statistical advantage, they are likely at a skill advantage as well since they have played the game a lot longer. This gives a double advantage to the maxed player. if you strip away the statistical advantage, the veteran player is still highly likely to win just because the "exp bar" of the actual player behind the computer is quite a bit higher, he simply doesnt need a numerical advantage as well. Its extremely frustrating as a new player to go up against people who not only are legitimately better players than you, they also have an artificial advantage too, just because they have spent more time in game. It doesn't matter at all if its logarithmic or just linear any advantage at all can be frustrating. 

 

also need to add that there is indeed a linear power curve in this game. you do hit harder with a higher skill in your sword, and you can indeed get higher faster if you actively train rather than just rely on passive training. The advantage is there, its just not as pronounced.

 

I want a fantasy world simulator, not just a casual pvp arena game that I play with no immersion for the sake of testing my real life skills in. 

 

I have plenty of games like that already ... I don't need anymore. 

 

I want a deeper and richer experience. And yes, that means imbalances. A certain degree of unpredictability and unfairness (but within reason). That is exciting. 

 

You can only actively train the first little sliver of any given skill. It's a slap in the face for those who want active skilling. 

 

 

Draw me like one of your linear power scales?!

 

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I'd prefer the light blue myself. The faster people can join the fray the better. The less power they accumulate while they are in the fray, the better. This makes a good competitive game that isn't defined by time spent becoming more powerful just because, but rather by time spent learning to maximize the power you already have. Diminishing returns bud... you talk a lot about real life skills and mastery through time and hard work. That is all the light blue line, not the dark blue... certainly not the purple.

 

We want a mostly level playing field with the majority of characters for this game to even function. We need players who are fresh to the game to be able to compete directly with the veterans on a power level. Your linear model kills this.

 

I'll make it simple.

 

Two handed sword skill level 1 to 2 increases damage by 1%. 

Two handed sword skill level 98 to 99 increases damage by 1%.

 

Total power gained from 1 to 99 is a 99% increase in damage over a new player. Twice as strong. That's linear, even. Each level grants exactly the same boost as the previous one. But yet, each level requires an exponentially growing amount of experience to gain. Therefore, for an increasing amount of work, you get the same reward. Not diminishing returns directly, only in ratio of effort to reward. 

Edited by unknownxv

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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Totally a slap in the face.

And a kick in the balls to boot.

 

The decision of how characters level up is based solely on how much psychological damage it would cause to people that love pointless grinding.

 

Class active lawsuit I say


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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Could you stop pretending you only want active skill up?

 

Because what you really want is skill up that takes years


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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I want both. I want an active skill progression system that is linear in power delivery as described (each level gives the same reward) but takes an increasing amount of experience per each level (without an increase to how much experience you generally acquire for any given activity). This means that levels early on are quick to train, mid level they are a bit longer, 70% of the way they start to get pretty tough, and after 80 it's a 90 degree climb up, again for the same reward. 

 

This means two things, that most will never reach mastery, as it should be. Mastery should be incredibly rare, or it is no more than a joke. And secondly, because of the power delivery scale, no one feels like they are compelled to reach mastery. It's a bonus, not a necessity like in most themepark mmos. 


The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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I want both. I want an active skill progression system that is linear in power delivery as described (each level gives the same reward) but takes an increasing amount of experience per each level (without an increase to how much experience you generally acquire for any given activity). This means that levels early on are quick to train, mid level they are a bit longer, 70% of the way they start to get pretty tough, and after 80 it's a 90 degree climb up, again for the same reward. 

 

I.E the WoW model, just with even more grind.

No thanks, we dont want another casual grindcore game.

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I want both. I want an active skill progression system that is linear in power delivery as described (each level gives the same reward) but takes an increasing amount of experience per each level (without an increase to how much experience you generally acquire for any given activity). This means that levels early on are quick to train, mid level they are a bit longer, 70% of the way they start to get pretty tough, and after 80 it's a 90 degree climb up, again for the same reward. 

 

This means two things, that most will never reach mastery, as it should be. Mastery should be incredibly rare, or it is no more than a joke. And secondly, because of the power delivery scale, no one feels like they are compelled to reach mastery. It's a bonus, not a necessity like in most themepark mmos. 

Both can be accomplished by using their current proposed system as well as having a deeper system that is based on effort vs reward.  I think they are on the right track so far.  I just think they are missing a piece of the puzzle.  They have gotten the loot portion back in by the way they are doing disciplines.  You have to PvP in the campaigns in order to get then disciplines.  They need a way to integrate some effort vs reward in order for the system to be complete.  Effort vs reward does not have to equate to power.  Although that is the easiest way to implement it.  So instead of going back and forth on both sides with such a narrow vision why don't we try to come up with some alternative ideas?? 

 

Lets be realistic and honest with ourselves.  They are not reinventing the wheel here.  There are triggers based on human nature that will determine whether or not this game like all others in the past can hold someone's interest of enough people's interests to be a viable game.

 

Sandbox, themepark, whatever the title is, the bottom line is they are introducing systems to guide us through the game.   You need to look it as a road with the yellow line going down the center as being a thempark (rails) and the ditches (players decides path) being the sandbox.  BUT, the bottom line is they are still guiding you and pushing you in a specific direction with less restrictions.  The end result is the same in both styles of game.  A fully developed char that has stayed within the boundaries of their archetype system.

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I want both. I want an active skill progression system that is linear in power delivery as described (each level gives the same reward) but takes an increasing amount of experience per each level (without an increase to how much experience you generally acquire for any given activity). This means that levels early on are quick to train, mid level they are a bit longer, 70% of the way they start to get pretty tough, and after 80 it's a 90 degree climb up, again for the same reward. 

 

This means two things, that most will never reach mastery, as it should be. Mastery should be incredibly rare, or it is no more than a joke. And secondly, because of the power delivery scale, no one feels like they are compelled to reach mastery. It's a bonus, not a necessity like in most themepark mmos. 

 

In a competitive PvP game where the PvP actually has meaning this sort of system is horrible.  Even 1% to competitive PvPers feels mandatory.  So anyone who cares is going to be trying to get it.  So basically, instead of actually PvPing, they're out grinding mobs trying to raise their skill.  On top of that it highly encourages macro leveling.  And that would become a big problem with this game and would probably cause a lot of players to quit.  More then would quit from not having your sort of long term active leveling system.  

 

You're free to want it all you want.  There's nothing wrong with that being your system of choice.  But there's a reason they went with a passive leveling system and that's not changing in this game.

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Darkfall absolutely sheened its bed by not imposing maximum cap on all skills. Early days of DF where everyone could compete, with late days where hardcore maxed out characters were untouchable were two entirely different games.

 

Thing is, players don't want to go through 'hazing rituals' where for months any PvP encounters is auto-lose. You need to have a game maximum character power is capped. If it isn't, no matter diminishing returns, someone will grind it out to be OP.

 

UO had 7GM system, it worked. You had 7 skills you could max. Most players would have only 1-2 maxed, but you still could compete with 7GM. If you could max every skill (and that was the case early in the game), there was no way 1-2GM could compete.

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I for one would LOVE to NOT have to go through another macro marathon under the 'guise of "character development". Everything that unknown has proposed would inevitably lead to that and I've already had enough for a 3 lifetimes of managing my character development macros 24/7, always the last thing I check before going to bed/wok and always the first thing when I get up in the morning/get back from work.. That kinda thing is very, very tiresome, mentally.

 

The level of character development already proposed by ACE seems plenty deep, engaging and meaningful(whatever the feck that means) enough.


Member of The BlackHand Order

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When people are playing the same character for months on end with no sense of progression or advancement it get boring.

 

But the devs have said in recent Vodcasts they understand some people wont care about their Eternal Kingdom... so that cant be the only long term progression.

 

 

To address these two:

  • The feeling of progress or achievement in a game like this is often unrelated to how much time the player spends grinding levels.
  • Just because they won't care about their EK, doesn't mean they won't care about or be working toward their guild's EK or their guild's progression. 

 

UO, EVE, There, Salem, Second Life, ATITD, Puzzle Pirates... the design of most sandbox MMOs is very different from the design of the prolific EQ/WOW variants. The feeling of accomplishment and growth often stems from one's personal goals and not necessarily from the game progression. If anything, the game progression is a means to an end not an end itself.

 

The clearest example of that is in gear. In most EQ/WOW style games, the ultimate goal is the best gear. Once you have that, you're pretty much done with content until the next gear chase is released. In games like UO and EVE, not only is the gear chase for one's preferred gear (not necessarily the top gear) but that is only a means to their end which may be some profession/objective not even defined by the game.

 

The same with levels. Level cap isn't the end. It's just a means to the end. If the means is taking forever, the player never gets to work toward their actual end, either because they spent all the time leveling or those that have leveled faster are done with that and now impede them. "But AC said there won't be major level disparity!" Now you're starting to see some of the reasons why. 

 

You bring up RR, but RR was just leveling under a different name, much like the endgame advancement points of EQ, AoC and other games. Crowfall isn't that type of game.  

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I.E the WoW model, just with even more grind.

No thanks, we dont want another casual grindcore game.

 

You just aren't even paying attention now. I've told you several times, no, it is not like WoW or any other themepark game.

 

WoW utilizes an exponential power delivery system, whereby the difference between a level 1 character and level 100 is several thousand times. And that's purely in raw stats. When you add in the penalty for missing (which is automatic and not based on player skill in WoW) it becomes so absurd that a thousand level 1s couldn't even dent a naked level 100. 

 

To make it even worse, the progression from 1 to 100 is active but extremely quick.

 

So, the power delivery is so immense (and the entire game is a themepark) that it is an absolute requirement that you level to the end. No debates. You HAVE to reach max level to properly play in pvp or pve. And it's easy to do so.

 

This means that levels are essentially meaningless. Yes, you get a little sense of achievement for pushing through, but it's a very small achievement given how quick it is to level, and it offers no prestige at all because everyone else was utterly compelled to level to max as well.

 

Compared to what I am proposing, where level 1 in a skill compared to 99 is a 99% increase, two fold; you cannot compare that to a several thousand fold increase. And then to reiterate, the leveling design ensures that most will not pursue their skills to the top mastery level; to most it just won't be worth it, it'll be too long and arduous a task. But to the few who tough it out, proper prestige will await. Your character will be just a little stronger but really, it's about the achievement. 

 

Just like seeing a set of six pack abs in real life is extremely impressive, though it only offers a slight reward compared to those who don't workout, it's something people awe over. But really, it's just a bunch of cardio and crunches. No skill involved. Why are people impressed? Because it's difficult to get down and do the work every day for years. In such, few do it, it's rare, the entire set of circumstances coalesce to form immense value and purpose. 

 

 

Both can be accomplished by using their current proposed system as well as having a deeper system that is based on effort vs reward.  I think they are on the right track so far.  I just think they are missing a piece of the puzzle.  They have gotten the loot portion back in by the way they are doing disciplines.  You have to PvP in the campaigns in order to get then disciplines.  They need a way to integrate some effort vs reward in order for the system to be complete.  Effort vs reward does not have to equate to power.  Although that is the easiest way to implement it.  So instead of going back and forth on both sides with such a narrow vision why don't we try to come up with some alternative ideas?? 

 

Lets be realistic and honest with ourselves.  They are not reinventing the wheel here.  There are triggers based on human nature that will determine whether or not this game like all others in the past can hold someone's interest of enough people's interests to be a viable game.

 

Sandbox, themepark, whatever the title is, the bottom line is they are introducing systems to guide us through the game.   You need to look it as a road with the yellow line going down the center as being a thempark (rails) and the ditches (players decides path) being the sandbox.  BUT, the bottom line is they are still guiding you and pushing you in a specific direction with less restrictions.  The end result is the same in both styles of game.  A fully developed char that has stayed within the boundaries of their archetype system.

 

The game is not even in pre-alpha yet. The wheel hasn't been invented. With enough logic and reason, maybe it can be changed to some degree. All I can do is try, give me one chance? ( B))

 

You don't have to have any direction at all in a sandbox game. But yes, they've chosen a slightly directed experience through archetypes and classes over entirely free form design (like Darkfall for example). Which while not my favorite option, is still okay and can work. It's all down to how skills are trained, that is my only real point of contention here. 

 

 

In a competitive PvP game where the PvP actually has meaning this sort of system is horrible.  Even 1% to competitive PvPers feels mandatory.  So anyone who cares is going to be trying to get it.  So basically, instead of actually PvPing, they're out grinding mobs trying to raise their skill.  On top of that it highly encourages macro leveling.  And that would become a big problem with this game and would probably cause a lot of players to quit.  More then would quit from not having your sort of long term active leveling system.  

 

You're free to want it all you want.  There's nothing wrong with that being your system of choice.  But there's a reason they went with a passive leveling system and that's not changing in this game.

 

Correct, in an Esports game where immersion does not matter, where rpg does not matter, where it is not an mmo, where the entire focus of the game is testing your human abilites against other human abilities like an advanced and quick form of chess, any deviation from an even playing field is a bad idea. 

 

That is not at all what I want, and I hope not what most want either. I hope more people want a fleshed out and vibrant fantasy world simulator, not just a casual form of advanced twitch chess. We already have dozens of those. We don't need more purely competitive pvp games. We need a fantasy world with competitive elements, but that can't be all there is. There's no life to that. That isn't a world or an RPG. 

 

I for one would LOVE to NOT have to go through another macro marathon under the 'guise of "character development". Everything that unknown has proposed would inevitably lead to that and I've already had enough for a 3 lifetimes of managing my character development macros 24/7, always the last thing I check before going to bed/wok and always the first thing when I get up in the morning/get back from work.. That kinda thing is very, very tiresome, mentally.

 

The level of character development already proposed by ACE seems plenty deep, engaging and meaningful(whatever the feck that means) enough.

 

If there is no technical way of detecting and disabling macros than you are correct, everything I have proposed is pointless as many would simply abuse it to hell and back and it would lose the entire point. 

 

However, I highly doubt in 2015 with the best technology and minds at work, that there is no way to detect and stop macros in an MMORPG. 

Edited by unknownxv

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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Correct, in an Esports game where immersion does not matter, where rpg does not matter, where it is not an mmo, where the entire focus of the game is testing your human abilites against other human abilities like an advanced and quick form of chess, any deviation from an even playing field is a bad idea. 

 

That is not at all what I want, and I hope not what most want either. I hope more people want a fleshed out and vibrant fantasy world simulator, not just a casual form of advanced twitch chess. We already have dozens of those. We don't need more purely competitive pvp games. We need a fantasy world with competitive elements, but that can't be all there is. There's no life to that. That isn't a world or an RPG. 

 

This may not be an Esports game but the PvE is pretty much non-existent.  The moment you step foot in a campaign it's about resources, crafting and PvP.  I really think you've got this idea about what this game is in your head, that isn't at all what this game is aiming for.  This is a team based PvP game with politics and territory control.  That's the gist of the whole game.

 

I know you seem to think that the sort of leveling in this game equals casual play but you couldn't be more wrong.  Sure you can have character progression be a grind and so not really be casual to level or you could have it easy to where it feels like a game for casuals... If leveling IS the game.  Which it's not in this game.  So you can't really say this passive sort of leveling is casual play because leveling has very little to do with this game.

 

Having played Shadowbane, I have no doubt that if your type of leveling system was in SB it would've been horrible.

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I can say this much, the proudest moment of my life in MMORPGS was not hitting level cap or maxing my craft in WoW, it was when I became a trusted advisor and Senior Officer in my guild or when the guild I lead achieved something as a guild. That's what I want from an MMORPG in a nutshell. Not some spoon fed vertical progression system. Social progression should be the key drive behind in game action. Whether it be your goal be an effective leader, an infamous robber,professional mercenary, or respected crafter is inconsequential. All of these are social goals and achieving them is more meaningful than any skinner box pixel manipulation that ACE can conjure up.

 

Why? Because it is your peers that determine whether you are successful or not. Not some computer program.

Edited by Joziah09

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Thing is, players don't want to go through 'hazing rituals' where for months any PvP encounters is auto-lose. You need to have a game maximum character power is capped. If it isn't, no matter diminishing returns, someone will grind it out to be OP.

 

Well that's the thing, you can't claim your game is about player skill, then have huge power difference between characters.

 

If you want people to have fun right away, feel useful, and make skill matter - then the power gap between characters needs to be relatively small.


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Your primary source of Crowfall news, guides, and information.

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You guys don't really want an MMORPG. You want an entirely combat focused game. Not an immersive role playing experience within a vibrant dynamic world that offers more than combat for combat's sake. 

 

Maybe the aim of this game isn't what I was hoping for. 


The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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You guys don't really want an MMORPG. You want an entirely combat focused game. Not an immersive role playing experience within a vibrant dynamic world that offers more than combat for combat's sake.

 

Maybe the aim of this game isn't what I was hoping for.

The RPG aspect comes from other players and your relationship with them...instead of NPCs.

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You guys don't really want an MMORPG. You want an entirely combat focused game. Not an immersive role playing experience within a vibrant dynamic world that offers more than combat for combat's sake. 

 

Maybe the aim of this game isn't what I was hoping for. 

 

I agree there with HamletDynamic, the RPG element comes from the Lore, the Worlds, the Story's that Players are writing due to their Tasks and everything in between. The Character progression will probably be more horizontal than vertical by what we heard so far, which is a good thing!

 

Combat is simply a big part what many want to do, but it is in no way something that rules out the true core of a RPG which is character development not only by stats, but by the actions and stories he has to tell, which in a sandbox game like this which relies so heavily on teamwork and crafting as well fighting will provide in Buckets I'm sure about that. :)

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