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Ziz

Where's The Long Term Character Progression?

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I want all you describe too, just with active and meaningful character progression.

 

Shame there doesn't appear to be a middle ground anyone wants to entertain. 


The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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I want both. I want an active skill progression system that is linear in power delivery as described (each level gives the same reward) but takes an increasing amount of experience per each level (without an increase to how much experience you generally acquire for any given activity). This means that levels early on are quick to train, mid level they are a bit longer, 70% of the way they start to get pretty tough, and after 80 it's a 90 degree climb up, again for the same reward. 

 

This means two things, that most will never reach mastery, as it should be. Mastery should be incredibly rare, or it is no more than a joke. And secondly, because of the power delivery scale, no one feels like they are compelled to reach mastery. It's a bonus, not a necessity like in most themepark mmos. 

They had that in Darkfall.  People macroed.  End of story.

 

Passive training gets rid of the necessity to macro just to stay competitive.

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Crowfall explicitely is NOT about filling another experience bar or grind out yet another token of accomplishment.

This game is about competing with other players, about crushing what they got and keeping them to crush your stuff. The longterm commitment is covered by your own desire to be the best, to win the campaigns, have the biggest EK and to build a name for yourself as THE one.

 

If that isn't sufficient enough for you then better look for another game.

Edited by Angier

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You guys don't really want an MMORPG. You want an entirely combat focused game. Not an immersive role playing experience within a vibrant dynamic world that offers more than combat for combat's sake. 

 

Maybe the aim of this game isn't what I was hoping for. 

 

RPGs come from olde schoole pen and paper stuff where playing a role was actually the goal. Not levelling, not being more powerful like you seem to think. It was about playing make believe and pretending to be a brave knight or a cunning rogue. You sound like that powergamer that got kicked from games for complaining that people were talking too much instead of killing things for xp.


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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RPGs come from olde schoole pen and paper stuff where playing a role was actually the goal. Not levelling, not being more powerful like you seem to think. It was about playing make believe and pretending to be a brave knight or a cunning rogue. You sound like that powergamer that got kicked from games for complaining that people were talking too much instead of killing things for xp.

Lets not forget that this is not really a rpg. It has some elements, but it is a "MMO kick everyone's ass"

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I want all you describe too, just with active and meaningful character progression.

 

Shame there doesn't appear to be a middle ground anyone wants to entertain. 

 

I think darkfall is the closest you are getting to what you want here. Unfortunately for you I don't think the thing you want is something that even a niche group of people Crowfall's size is interested in. Maybe there could be an endless campaign mode or something with the rule set you describe but it seems hard to implement within the known system.

 

As to being able to detect ban macro use, yes it can be done to an extent and I imagine there will be anti-botting implemented in Crowfall. That said, it is a game of whack a mole and it is impossible to completely remove even in a buy to play game (WoW invested a ton in anti botting measures and it is still rampant). Also Crowfall isn't going to have a large team and removing botting incentives a priori is going to make things much easier on the team.

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Maybe the aim of this game isn't what I was hoping for.

It blows my mind that you want a Korean grinder to fill immersed in the world. I can't pretend to understand why you are this way, but unlike you I prefer to experiences to factory-line character grinds.

 

What you are hoping for already exists. Try Lineage. I think it has PvP, but I don't think you get to see it first year of your grinding.

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I want both. I want an active skill progression system that is linear in power delivery as described (each level gives the same reward) but takes an increasing amount of experience per each level (without an increase to how much experience you generally acquire for any given activity). This means that levels early on are quick to train, mid level they are a bit longer, 70% of the way they start to get pretty tough, and after 80 it's a 90 degree climb up, again for the same reward. 

 

This means two things, that most will never reach mastery, as it should be. Mastery should be incredibly rare, or it is no more than a joke. And secondly, because of the power delivery scale, no one feels like they are compelled to reach mastery. It's a bonus, not a necessity like in most themepark mmos. 

 

So, in a nutshell, you want to be able to waste 6-10 months grinding the same boring mob spawn or the same raid, over and over again to get to "max" level so that you can be better than the new guy that just joined the game.

You want to stroke your internet ego by saying you can spend 100 hours in a game a month and reach max level in those same 6 months, where as the casual gamer would take 10-12 months.

 

Level grinding is boring, pointless and a general waste of time.

 

Passive leveling gives you the opportunity to be immersed in the game, not the grind.

 

Although, I WOULD like to see active leveling for crafters (only) once they get to a certain skill level (90+%). That would at least limit the amount of max crafter alts you are so worried about. (me too). 

 

I would much rather spend those same 6-10 months pvping every day (or crafting), making a name for myself within the community as a good or bad person. Stealing runes from the large group that just spent 2 hours waiting on a mob to spawn for a rune, because they didn't think to bring a scout with them (SB reference).

 

Personally, I hated when SWG turned into the Jedi spin group grind to level your Jedi.

I hated having to run the same boring raids over and over in WoW just to increase your ilevel.

I hated the introduction of Trammel in UO that totally killed risk vs reward for crafters.

I hated duping at server reset in SB because it killed the game. (not to mention sb.exe).

 

So no, you can take any type of level grind system, and go build a game, that only you will play, and leave it out of this one.

Edited by Lamdred

Lamdred Al'Ker - OTG

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So, in a nutshell, you want to be able to waste 6-10 months grinding the same boring mob spawn or the same raid, over and over again to get to "max" level so that you can be better than the new guy that just joined the game.

You want to stroke your internet ego by saying you can spend 100 hours in a game a month and reach max level in those same 6 months, where as the casual gamer would take 10-12 months.

 

Level grinding is boring, pointless and a general waste of time.

 

Passive leveling gives you the opportunity to be immersed in the game, not the grind.

 

Although, I WOULD like to see active leveling for crafters (only) once they get to a certain skill level (90+%). That would at least limit the amount of max crafter alts you are so worried about. (me too). 

 

I would much rather spend those same 6-10 months pvping every day (or crafting), making a name for myself within the community as a good or bad person. Stealing runes from the large group that just spent 2 hours waiting on a mob to spawn for a rune, because they didn't think to bring a scout with them (SB reference).

 

Personally, I hated when SWG turned into the Jedi spin group grind to level your Jedi.

I hated having to run the same boring raids over and over in WoW just to increase your ilevel.

I hated the introduction of Trammel in UO that totally killed risk vs reward for crafters.

I hated duping at server reset in SB because it killed the game. (not to mention sb.exe).

 

So no, you can take any type of level grind system, and go build your own game, that only you will play and leave it out of this one.

You know you want to see a SB.exe easter egg. You can deny it all you want(if you do), but we know better.

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You know you want to see a SB.exe easter egg. You can deny it all you want(if you do), but we know better.

 

Yep, right when they introduce unknownxv's level grind system.. oops! SB.EXE!


Lamdred Al'Ker - OTG

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What the hell is wrong with you people?  

You know NOTHING about what this game will be and thus nothing about how much you will or will not like it.  Are we going to have to listen to and endless bombardment of why this can't be more like other games for the next two years?

 

FFS if it doesn't suit you there are a bazillion others that may.  Don't come here where you have a bunch of people who have been looking for something WITHOUT what you are asking for and tell them it is doomed to fail.  You can call that fanboi's if you want but I just see a complainer who wants everything ever made to be exactly what works for them.

 

This one is ours...go bugger off.

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Grindy active leveling leads to macoring.

 

Good macoring leads to AFK macroing and "active" leveling.

 

So for those who are addicted to grindy active leveling, just pretend that the passive leveling system is a very safe and efficient active level grind macro that ACE built into the game.  :)


soli deo gloria

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It blows my mind that you want a Korean grinder to fill immersed in the world. I can't pretend to understand why you are this way, but unlike you I prefer to experiences to factory-line character grinds.

 

What you are hoping for already exists. Try Lineage. I think it has PvP, but I don't think you get to see it first year of your grinding.

 

I don't want a korean grinder. Those are themepark mmos. 

 

The separation seems hard to appropriately describe. My background is so heavily influenced by Runescape, if you haven't played it, I guess it will seem a bit strange. Every action in that game awarded you with some minor amount of experience. A simple distinction, when you were in combat you could choose one of the three styles of combat:

 

Attack 

Strength

Defense. 

 

With obvious connotations for each skill. When you were in attack stance, your attack skill (increasing accuracy) was raised slightly based on how much damage you dealt to whoever you were fighting. Of course it does not have to be an identical system to this, it's just a small nuance that boils down to a very different flavor. It's not a general level, exponential power curve, quick active leveling korean themepark. Not even remotely. 

 

 

RPGs come from olde schoole pen and paper stuff where playing a role was actually the goal. Not levelling, not being more powerful like you seem to think. It was about playing make believe and pretending to be a brave knight or a cunning rogue. You sound like that powergamer that got kicked from games for complaining that people were talking too much instead of killing things for xp.

 

It's funny how that is your perception of me when in fact, I am very easy going in my approach to MMORPGs, doing a lot of in-game role playing myself. When I was playing Runescape, sure I tried to get my levels up like the next person, but I wasn't that hardcore at it, not like the extreme players. It's more the experience of always having something to aim for, an open field to set your goal post in without restriction and with purpose. It's not an achievement that everyone must get to be competitive, not at all. It's not an "achievement" that is very quickly and easily earned either. 

 

It's the point of not making levels trivial affairs. Passive training is the worst offender of this. Levels mean absolutely nothing to anyone. "Mastery" of any profession is a joke, an oxymoron. A greater fiction than the lore the game is based on. It robs one of the ability to plot individual achievements. 

 

I want a vibrant world where both skill-based competitive pvp is possible and entirely viable a method of play, but that does not necessarily revolve strictly around this. An open ended, proper sandbox that does not, through mechanics, pigeon hole players into a very narrow type of play while only giving the illusion of being a sandbox. 

Edited by unknownxv

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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Lets not forget that this is not really a rpg. It has some elements, but it is a "MMO kick everyone's bottom"

 

Which is why his point is so insane. In a wargame you're invested in the ongoing war effort. In an RPG you're invested in your character's story. Where the hell does being invested in hitting level N+1 even come from?


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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Which is why his point is so insane. In a wargame you're invested in the ongoing war effort. In an RPG you're invested in your character's story. Where the hell does being invested in hitting level N+1 even come from?

 

Is it such a bewildering concept to fuse the two game types together? A dynamically competitive MMORPG with plenty of hardcore pvp action, meaningful crafting and meaningful character profession, and a world filled with nuggets of RPG related intrigue? Exploration being a viable style of play, mysteries abound (unique ones that are one time only affairs) and so on. 

 

So much is possible, but it seems we either get boring themeparks which are nothing more than virtual treadmills or "sandbox" games that do nothing but offer a meaningless PvP arena. 

 

 

I think darkfall is the closest you are getting to what you want here. Unfortunately for you I don't think the thing you want is something that even a niche group of people Crowfall's size is interested in. Maybe there could be an endless campaign mode or something with the rule set you describe but it seems hard to implement within the known system.

 

As to being able to detect ban macro use, yes it can be done to an extent and I imagine there will be anti-botting implemented in Crowfall. That said, it is a game of whack a mole and it is impossible to completely remove even in a buy to play game (WoW invested a ton in anti botting measures and it is still rampant). Also Crowfall isn't going to have a large team and removing botting incentives a priori is going to make things much easier on the team.

 

Well, it doesn't even have to be a different campaign ruleset does it? There are plenty of methods to reach a compromise so people like me are happy, and people who don't really want to think about leveling too much are also fairly happy. Neither party is 100% satisfied, but it's close to it (I've already made such a proposal that was ultimately shot down without most people understanding it). 

 

In the effort of making the most profound kind of mmorpg, "easy" shouldn't be the priority. Dealing with botting is no doubt a challenge, but one well worth undertaking. 

Edited by unknownxv

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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Is it such a bewildering concept to fuse the two game types together? A dynamically competitive MMORPG with plenty of hardcore pvp action, meaningful crafting and meaningful character profession, and a world filled with nuggets of RPG related intrigue? Exploration being a viable style of play, mysteries abound (unique ones that are one time only affairs) and so on. 

 

 

 

That makes perfect sense. But you're fusing two things that aren't about vertical power advancement and out of the blue demanding that get added as well. Which is nuts. Everyone else here gets the fusion part, it was the Crowfall pitch and what got us here. Where you lose people is adding a power grind to genres that are traditionally about other things.

 

MMO style forever grinds are the Johnny come lately that needs to get it's grubby mitts off our fun.


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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