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Where's The Long Term Character Progression?

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The separation seems hard to appropriately describe. My background is so heavily influenced by Runescape, if you haven't played it, I guess it will seem a bit strange. Every action in that game awarded you with some minor amount of experience.

 

If you're a fan of Runescape, you're a fan of the style of game Ultima Online was known for and Runescape carried over.  The minute skill up experience and individual achievement potential is something you can find still.  The game you want to play isn't Crowfall, it's this one:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9StvrjFt1g

 

The game you like does exist, go play that one.  We'd really prefer if this game stays the path of EVE or Shadowbane and doesn't require heavy grinding, macroing, or years of effort to reach level cap just so you can be viable in PVP (aka the heart of the game).

 

https://albiononline.com/founders/#content

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So, in a nutshell, you want to be able to waste 6-10 months grinding the same boring mob spawn or the same raid, over and over again to get to "max" level so that you can be better than the new guy that just joined the game.

You want to stroke your internet ego by saying you can spend 100 hours in a game a month and reach max level in those same 6 months, where as the casual gamer would take 10-12 months.

 

 

First, I hope to God crowfall does not have anything like a themepark Raid. I don't know why people can't process the disconnect between active leveling and raiding. They aren't the same thing and I want no part in raiding. I want a real hardcore sandbox like the rest of you. That part we're on the same page for. You can have unique, dynamically generated dungeons that do not respawn (or respawn but are individually crafted to be truly unique and not spoiled by the internet) but no, not raid repeat exactly the same way for an endless carrot on stick hunt for "epic" loot. Ugh, I shudder at those memories. 

 

I do want to stroke my ego in becoming stronger though my character's in-game stats, but I want to stroke my character's ego. When I play an MMORPG, I get immersed into it. I am my character when I play. Maybe I'm more serious than most, but that's a large reason why I hate the idea of passive leveling. It doesn't sync up at all with how I think of and play in mmorpgs. 

 

And as I've said many times, the power boost from combat levels would be very, very minor relative to what most think of in general themepark games. Literally thousands of times less extreme. It would be an edge. Nothing more. 

 

Level grinding is boring, pointless and a general waste of time.

 

 

It's an arduous task. Just like working out in real life. Just like studying in real life. Just like anything in real life that requires effort and repetition. In of itself it sucks, it's not fun, but I wouldn't have it any other way because if it was easy, if it was fun all the time, we'd be defeated in ourselves. We need mountains to climb. I certainly do. Without them, dull and bland become the objects of the universe. That applies in real life just as much as a fantasy world. 

 

Passive leveling gives you the opportunity to be immersed in the game, not the grind.

 

 

By making the world experience dramatically less meaningful, it removes immersion, it doesn't add to it. Having nothing that connects me to my character, the only permanent aspect of the game... well, you can see how that can be a hollow experience. 

 

Although, I WOULD like to see active leveling for crafters (only) once they get to a certain skill level (90+%). That would at least limit the amount of max crafter alts you are so worried about. (me too). 

 

 

Cool, finally one person who agrees with me on something, I was beginning to think I might just be insane. I actually made a similar proposal, although it was for combat skills too. Passive training up to 90% of the skill. The final and hardest bit would be active only, so no one could be a "master" by goofing off in-game or having fun in real life.

 

The very thought makes my brain explode.

 

Given I want a linear power curve (i.e a small increase in power for each level and it does not grow more dramatic as you reach the highest levels) you can train up to mid or 70% of a skill and with a little more player skill / better items / better strategy still come out on top over someone completely maxed.

 

 

 

I do NOT want ridiculous power curves that necessitate that everyone spend their whole waking lives grinding to the same point everyone else feels they have to. That is a disgusting experience and given that everyone who plays will reach the end point anyways, it defeats the point. It's difficult but everyone "has" to do it so it isn't prestigous. If on the other hand it's very difficult to level up (on an exponential curve so the first 70% of a skill is much quicker to train than the last 30%) but the reward is only marginal, most would elect to stop around that 60-70% mark. Completely and totally still viable to do so. 

 

Personally, I hated when SWG turned into the Jedi spin group grind to level your Jedi.

I hated having to run the same boring raids over and over in WoW just to increase your ilevel.

I hated the introduction of Trammel in UO that totally killed risk vs reward for crafters.

I hated duping at server reset in SB because it killed the game. (not to mention sb.exe).

 

 

I agree with everything you hate here. 


The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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There is a reason why there is so many guides on how to level fast or what bots are popular for Runescape.

 

It is boring. Boring.

There are very few people that actually enjoy grinding. That should be obvious by researching mmos just a tiny bit. And from the responses here.

 

Slow skill gain, in skills or in levels, are NOT put in mmos for enjoyment. It originated as a way of prolonging a costumers stay with your product.

Since we were paying a monthly fee, the longer someone stayed the more money you made.

 

But in every game with a grind, people have been looking for the quickest way to get it over with.

That naturally happens when you create gameplay that is tedious and boring.

 

If you analyze it a bit more, you will realize that unintended things like relying on the holy trinity and minimum ilevel requirements, stem from people wanting to be as efficient as possible, to bypass the most boring parts of a game.

 

You argue that the best of the best in runescape are the ones that put in the most effort.

This is never true.

The "best" in any grinding game, are always the ones that find a way around the grind.

This includes grinding, powerleveling, buying accounts and finding flaws in the design to get ahead.

Very little actual effort.

 

Most people wouldn't get a job where they had to do the same thing over and over.

Those kinds of jobs don't reward you either mentally or tangible.

Learning new skills in RL is not rewarding because of time or repetition either.

The reward comes from overcoming challenges and personal growth, neither having time or repetition as a requirements.

 

This is also why our workplaces and schools have drastically changed over the last 30 years.

Our schools were set up for preparing us for a factory life. And most normal jobs were a grind and a chore, without much in the feeling of achievement.

You really think that created the best of the best? Or do you think the most successful members of society took other roads? Shortcuts and p2w options.

 

The bottom line is, that what you want is boring as hell, have nothing to do with skill and are straight up poor game design.

You have apparently been conditioned, both in mmos and real life, to believe that grinding is valuable.

For that, I can only say that I hope you can still grow out of that.


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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First, I hope to God crowfall does not have anything like a themepark Raid. I don't know why people can't process the disconnect between active leveling and raiding. They aren't the same thing and I want no part in raiding. I want a real hardcore sandbox like the rest of you. That part we're on the same page for. You can have unique, dynamically generated dungeons that do not respawn (or respawn but are individually crafted to be truly unique and not spoiled by the internet) but no, not raid repeat exactly the same way for an endless carrot on stick hunt for "epic" loot. Ugh, I shudder at those memories. 

 

thankfully, they wont!

 

 

I do want to stroke my ego in becoming stronger though my character's in-game stats, but I want to stroke my character's ego. When I play an MMORPG, I get immersed into it. I am my character when I play. Maybe I'm more serious than most, but that's a large reason why I hate the idea of passive leveling. It doesn't sync up at all with how I think of and play in mmorpgs. 

 

I don't know if  you ever played Shadowbane, but imagine this. Player A rolled a scout, Player B rolled a thief. Player A has 1 job, keep Player B from stealing from the group. In PvP, he is almost worthless except in a 1 on 1 fight vs the thief, BUT he is one of the most sought after classes for his role. It has nothing to do with his level, nothing to do with his PvP skills, and everything to do with his ability to track, detect and kill the thief. Even if he is only providing overwatch, people will still want him around. That gives him the sense of immersion you are talking about, not his level.

 

 

And as I've said many times, the power boost from combat levels would be very, very minor relative to what most think of in general themepark games. Literally thousands of times less extreme. It would be an edge. Nothing more. 

 

It just wont be necessary in this game. Other things will immerse you more.

 

It's an arduous task. Just like working out in real life. Just like studying in real life. Just like anything in real life that requires effort and repetition. In of itself it sucks, it's not fun, but I wouldn't have it any other way because if it was easy, if it was fun all the time, we'd be defeated in ourselves. We need mountains to climb. I certainly do. Without them, dull and bland become the objects of the universe. That applies in real life just as much as a fantasy world. 

 

I think you will be pleasantly surprised with how many mountains there will be in this game without adding level grind to it.

 

By making the world experience dramatically less meaningful, it removes immersion, it doesn't add to it. Having nothing that connects me to my character, the only permanent aspect of the game... well, you can see how that can be a hollow experience. 

 

The whole game is about immersing you in the world experience, but its more on a social level than individual level. If you think you are going to go into a campaign alone and wtfpwn everyone solo, you are in the wrong game. FPS games are where you want to be.

 

Cool, finally one person who agrees with me on something, I was beginning to think I might just be insane. I actually made a similar proposal, although it was for combat skills too. Passive training up to 90% of the skill. The final and hardest bit would be active only, so no one could be a "master" by goofing off in-game or having fun in real life.

 

Everyone does combat, so I wouldn't want to give the power gamers an edge because they can play 20 hours a day to max their skills. (which btw, the power gamers are usually the first to quit, or whine for new content because they rush through the "getting to max" as quickly as possible and then have nothing (in their minds) left to do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My responses in bold.

Edited by Lamdred

Lamdred Al'Ker - OTG

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Possibly because you want two different games. 

 

Not at all, what I want can be fit into one all consuming and impressive mmorpg. It just hasn't been tried yet. 

 

 

If you're a fan of Runescape, you're a fan of the style of game Ultima Online was known for and Runescape carried over.  The minute skill up experience and individual achievement potential is something you can find still.  The game you want to play isn't Crowfall, it's this one:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9StvrjFt1g

 

The game you like does exist, go play that one.  We'd really prefer if this game stays the path of EVE or Shadowbane and doesn't require heavy grinding, macroing, or years of effort to reach level cap just so you can be viable in PVP (aka the heart of the game).

 

https://albiononline.com/founders/#content

 

Yes I know about Albion online and am paying attention to it. But a few things hold me back. The first is the control scheme. It'll have some skill elements, but it's far less involved than Crowfall. It's an isometric design. Not only do I dislike this from an aesthetic point of view, I dislike it from a gameplay point of view. The reason for this choice is due to it being a tablet game too. Very accessible. 

 

Again, it's still worth keeping an eye out since their progression system is pretty cool (although the way they are constructing it seems to be too heavy on importance so I feel everyone will be maxed out, but I don't have all the details yet so that remains to be seen). 

 

My proposed system would not require a lot of grinding at all to be viable. As I've repeatedly said, even a newbie would be viable given that the difference between him and a maxed veteran wouldn't be that much. I do not seek a traditional exponential themepark power curve. No macroing either. If artfall considers my suggestions but cannot or willnot implement methods to stop macroing, it would be pointless and I'd prefer them not to do it. 

Edited by unknownxv

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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Not at all, what I want can be fit into one all consuming and impressive mmorpg. It just hasn't been tried yet. 

 

 

 

Yes I know about Albion online and am paying attention to it. But a few things hold me back. The first is the control scheme. It'll have some skill elements, but it's far less involved than Crowfall. It's an isometric design. Not only do I dislike this from an aesthetic point of view, I dislike it from a gameplay point of view. The reason for this choice is due to it being a tablet game too. Very accessible. 

 

Again, it's still worth keeping an eye out since their progression system is pretty cool (although the way they are constructing it seems to be too heavy on importance so I feel everyone will be maxed out, but I don't have all the details yet so that remains to be seen). 

 

My proposed system would not require a lot of grinding at all to be viable. As I've repeatedly said, even a newbie would be viable given that the difference between him and a maxed veteran wouldn't be that much. I do not seek a traditional exponential themepark power curve. No macroing either. If artfall considers my suggestions but cannot or willnot implement methods to stop macroing, it would be pointless and I'd prefer them not to do it. 

 

Will you just stop already? There is plenty of info going around about what this game will be. You chose to stay. Stop trying to change it drastically.

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Shorter Lamdred: You don't connect with your character by leveling him, you connect with your character by doing useful things with him.

 

In a themepark MMO, about the only useful thing you can do with your playtime is develop your character, so it's understandable that some people might conflate the two ideas- but in Crowfall, there will be lots of useful things to do when you log in which have nothing to do with character development per se.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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There is a reason why there is so many guides on how to level fast or what bots are popular for Runescape.

It is boring. Boring.
There are very few people that actually enjoy grinding. That should be obvious by researching mmos just a tiny bit. And from the responses here.

Slow skill gain, in skills or in levels, are NOT put in mmos for enjoyment. It originated as a way of prolonging a costumers stay with your product.
Since we were paying a monthly fee, the longer someone stayed the more money you made.

But in every game with a grind, people have been looking for the quickest way to get it over with.
That naturally happens when you create gameplay that is tedious and boring.

If you analyze it a bit more, you will realize that unintended things like relying on the holy trinity and minimum ilevel requirements, stem from people wanting to be as efficient as possible, to bypass the most boring parts of a game.

You argue that the best of the best in runescape are the ones that put in the most effort.
This is never true.
The "best" in any grinding game, are always the ones that find a way around the grind.
This includes grinding, powerleveling, buying accounts and finding flaws in the design to get ahead.
Very little actual effort.

Most people wouldn't get a job where they had to do the same thing over and over.
Those kinds of jobs don't reward you either mentally or tangible.
Learning new skills in RL is not rewarding because of time or repetition either.
The reward comes from overcoming challenges and personal growth, neither having time or repetition as a requirements.

This is also why our workplaces and schools have drastically changed over the last 30 years.
Our schools were set up for preparing us for a factory life. And most normal jobs were a grind and a chore, without much in the feeling of achievement.
You really think that created the best of the best? Or do you think the most successful members of society took other roads? Shortcuts and p2w options.

The bottom line is, that what you want is boring as hell, have nothing to do with skill and are straight up poor game design.
You have apparently been conditioned, both in mmos and real life, to believe that grinding is valuable.
For that, I can only say that I hope you can still grow out of that.

 

As I've said, yes, grinding is boring. The act itself of requiring strenuous active leveling is not fun. It isn't supposed to be. The idea is to require something most will not be willing to put in, precisely so most don't actually max out skills. Do you not understand how silly the entire concept of leveling is, if it's so easy / important that everyone does it?

 

Everyone becomes an expert, a "master", and the entire damn concept loses all meaning. No value to it. Through passive training it's even worse because you don't even get an immediate thrill from leveling since it was done for you. Literally every single reason to enjoy character progression is robbed in a passive leveling system. Everyone will be a master eventually, so there's no prestige whatsoever, and no one works for it, so there is no sense of achievement.

 

It's just there, for no reason. It'd be better to not even have character progression than an entirely passive form of it. 

 

People bot in Runescape because cheating is popular. Making things easier in an unfair manner is popular. People tend to lack a moral code when it comes to video games. 

 

The reason levels were introduced doesn't matter. Their effect when done right is what matters. 

 

I do not want minimum item levels. 

 

There is no way around the grind in Runescape without cheating. So no, the best are the ones who devote to it. 

 

Doing a repetitive task over and over that does not have a purpose; that does not train you in anything that you value, yes that is not a pleasant experience and few would do it without being paid. But there are so many skills that are trained by active repetitive involvement. Learning a musical instrument. Learning a language. Exercise. 

 

I have not been conditioned into anything. It is the human experience. We value what we strive for more than what we are given, it is that simple. 

 

Shorter Lamdred: You don't connect with your character by leveling him, you connect with your character by doing useful things with him.

 

In a themepark MMO, about the only useful thing you can do with your playtime is develop your character, so it's understandable that some people might conflate the two ideas- but in Crowfall, there will be lots of useful things to do when you log in which have nothing to do with character development per se.

 

 

I think I've said I do not want a themepark MMORPG at all in anyway shape or form, or a leveling system like it, about a hundred times now. 

 

Doing things with a character does not connect me to it. I do things with my character in Chivalry, in SMITE, guess what? No connection at all. 


The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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Kinda funny how this whole thread was created to show that there was some (tiny) interest in boring grinding.

 

And all it is really doing is showing there is a big opposition to it.

 

10/10

Would read again


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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As I've said, yes, grinding is boring. The act itself of requiring strenuous active leveling is not fun. It isn't supposed to be. The idea is to require something most will not be willing to put in, precisely so most don't actually max out skills. Do you not understand how silly the entire concept of leveling is, if it's so easy / important that everyone does it?
 

 

You're not describing a game, you're describing a job.  You're not seeking enjoyment, you're seeking achievement.  This path does not lead to fun, it leads to pride.

 

If you want that sense of arduous accomplishment for doing what no one else WANTS to do, seek more challenging employment in the real world.  You'll find no end to the availability of these tasks.  However a game is meant to be the opposite, to do something you actually WANT to do to further your own enjoyment in the minimal time you have set aside to actually engage in this activity.  This concept seems to be getting harder and harder for MMO players to understand, yet the idea is still alive and precious in the minds of other gamers.  Fun for the sake of fun, not accomplishment.  Making it difficult to achieve that fun adds to the value of it, but not at the expense of the fun itself.  If you have to cull the fun and make players miserable just so they can peak later briefly when they get to actually have some, you're doing it wrong.

 

Just as an example, the most common complaint I hear about Dota 2 is that the matches are too long, that devoting 40 minutes of time is too much for players used to 15 minute CoD deathmatches.  To each their own on that bit but each player still enjoys every moment of their respective game.  The CoD player's fun doesn't require max level and Dota's metagame starts at level 1.  Yet venture into a theme park MMO that has been around for any length of time and you almost have to grind your way to max level solo just to find where the rest of the community happens to be.  Even Shadowbane had leveling as a roadblock for new players, but macro warlock powerleveling was used by guilds to overcome it.  You say that macros should be banned yet even if we don't go into how ludicrously impossible that is, players will still move on to the next best option.  They will always seek to minimize elements of the game they perceive as unfun, and if the game cannot be minimized -- as is the case with many Korean grinder MMOs -- they simply will not play them.

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You're not describing a game, you're describing a job.  You're not seeking enjoyment, you're seeking achievement.  This path does not lead to fun, it leads to pride.

 

If you want that sense of arduous accomplishment for doing what no one else WANTS to do, seek more challenging employment in the real world.  You'll find no end to the availability of these tasks.  However a game is meant to be the opposite, to do something you actually WANT to do to further your own enjoyment in the minimal time you have set aside to actually engage in this activity.  This concept seems to be getting harder and harder for MMO players to understand, yet the idea is still alive and precious in the minds of other gamers.  Fun for the sake of fun, not accomplishment.  Making it difficult to achieve that fun adds to the value of it, but not at the expense of the fun itself.  If you have to cull the fun and make players miserable just so they can peak later briefly when they get to actually have some, you're doing it wrong.

 

Just as an example, the most common complaint I hear about Dota 2 is that the matches are too long, that devoting 40 minutes of time is too much for players used to 15 minute CoD deathmatches.  To each their own on that bit but each player still enjoys every moment of their respective game.  The CoD player's fun doesn't require max level and Dota's metagame starts at level 1.  Yet venture into a theme park MMO that has been around for any length of time and you almost have to grind your way to max level solo just to find where the rest of the community happens to be.  Even Shadowbane had leveling as a roadblock for new players, but macro warlock powerleveling was used by guilds to overcome it.  You say that macros should be banned yet even if we don't go into how ludicrously impossible that is, players will still move on to the next best option.  They will always seek to minimize elements of the game they perceive as unfun, and if the game cannot be minimized -- as is the case with many Korean grinder MMOs -- they simply will not play them.

 

well said!


Lamdred Al'Ker - OTG

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The "game" that unknownxv describes sounds bloody horrible.

 

Wait. No, that's too much of an understatement.

 

It sounds like the most rancid, turgid, brain-bleeding insanity I can possibly imagine. 

 

That, obviously, no one would ever play. 

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You guys don't really want an MMORPG. You want an entirely combat focused game. Not an immersive role playing experience within a vibrant dynamic world that offers more than combat for combat's sake. 

 

Maybe the aim of this game isn't what I was hoping for. 

At this point I have to draw the line. I am now convinced that modern MMO progression has indeed tainted your idea of what an RPG is. An RPG allows a person to play the role of someone else in another world. That has absolutely nothing to do with what systems implemented to advance a characters skills. I want to ROLE PLAY a general in an army taking over the land. Then this game will alow it, that makes it an RPG, Perod. This is the problem CF is trying to address. That every game out there right now that lets you role play in an open world forces this stupid time sink onto us and it in fact DETRACTS from playing a role. 

 

Its clearly gotten so bad now that many people even equate RPG to PROGRESSION, and think that you cant have an open world without progression, this is my nightmare no one seems to realize that they are not one in the same and they don't have to be. That is so custarded i cant even believe it.

 

I also feel like I need to add in that it may very well be impossible to have it both ways. If there can be any amount of artificial advantage the truth is anyone competitive it is instantly MANDATORY. Even if viability is there at less than max, psychologically anyone serious MUST HAVE those extra % no matter what. And that is what ends up even a slight linear power curve turning into a grind.

 

 

Last thing I must say. There will be much grinding in this game. A different kind of grinding. You and your buddies will spend endless hours in your castle dueling over and over and over. Each bout you will learn something new, you will adapt your timing of your sword swing to prevent something your opponent does, you will change the direction you dodge away when you see your opponent start a specific move. This is a grind of a different sort. This is a grind of player skill, it is engaging, rewarding, and incredible time consuming. But in the end, the truth about progression is that your mind must be involved. Skill bars and artificial advantage is not about using your mind to become smarter faster or better, It replaces the engagement with a skill bar that you stare at instead.

 

The true grind makes you feel like you learned something new every step of the way. That is engagement and role play at its finest and most addictive.

Edited by ndgreene

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Its clearly gotten so bad now that many people even equate RPG to PROGRESSION, and think that you cant have an open world without progression, this is my nightmare no one seems to realize that they are not one in the same and they don't have to be. That is so custarded i cant even believe it.

 

Passive progression actualy increases opportunities for roleplay, since you can spend your game time doing the things that makes sense for your character rather than spending hours on Kill 10 Rats.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Besides, there already will be active progression.  Every battle you fight improves you for the next.  Every sale you make teaches you market value.  Every item you craft with random materials gives you experience into what combinations are most profitable.  Every death you suffer informs of you dangers to avoid.  Every monster you slay makes you an iota better at slaying monsters.  We simply don't need game mechanics to track active progression.

 

Leveling up your true skills carries no "ding" and has no progress bar.  It's a hidden score that only you know until put to the test.

 

Players don't need the game to tell them when they've made an achievement by some arbitrary count.  They can figure that out for themselves.  Real achievements are acknowledged by others, not awarded by a computer.

Edited by Kyutaru

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You're not describing a game, you're describing a job.  You're not seeking enjoyment, you're seeking achievement.  This path does not lead to fun, it leads to pride.

 

 

I'm not describing either, actually. I am describing a fantasy world simulator. More than a game, but certainly not a job. A job is pure grind usually for survival (unless you're lucky and like what you do but that's rare). 

 

I want all of the sandbox ffa hardcore skill based pvp combat all of you guys want with an environment that can be destroyed and built in, creating endless possible player dynamics (though this is mostly related to group pvp).

 

I just want more than just that. And make no mistkae, that is all Crowfall is currently aiming to be. A PvP arena game with some political nuances. Apparently that's enough for most here. It just isn't form me.

 

What pains me the most is I've made several suggestions, middle points that would allow players like me to be very happy, and players like you to also be very happy. But no one entertains the ideas. I guess because no one seems to be able to understand why I want active leveling. No matter how many words I type, it feels to go in one ear and out the other. 

 

Real life is boring. I don't want to do arduous tasks in real life. There's no PvP in real life. There's perma death. Guaranteed aging death. Extreme RNG. Real life is horribly, horribly designed. Which is why I want a fantasy based MMORPG that simulates a lot of real life aspects, things that give our world meaning and purpose to us as a species, but doesn't go to the extremes that real life does. 

 

Dota 2 is a MOBA. CoD is an FPS. Isolated matches. They have nothing to do with a sandbox MMORPG. Nor does a themepark MMO. 

 

Seriously I don't know why people keep bringing up themeparks. I want nothing to do with them. The only similarity is that I want active leveling, but difficult active leveling with a linear power curve. I guess I have to reiterate again, this means that you do not in anyway have to be maxed to be competitive, and to reach true mastery would require an incredible amount of time and effort. So most won't do it, and that's okay. 

 

You can have an epic politically driven hardcore ffa sandbox mmorpg with proper character progression too. I don't know why people think they have to be separate. 

 

 

Besides, there already will be active progression.  Every battle you fight improves you for the next.  Every sale you make teaches you market value.  Every item you craft with random materials gives you experience into what combinations are most profitable.  Every death you suffer informs of you dangers to avoid.  Every monster you slay makes you an iota better at slaying monsters.  We simply don't need game mechanics to track active progression.

 

Leveling up your true skills carries no "ding" and has no progress bar.  It's a hidden score that only you know until put to the test.

 

Players don't need the game to tell them when they've made an achievement by some arbitrary count.  They can figure that out for themselves.  Real achievements are acknowledged by others, not awarded by a computer.

 

That is leveling your real life character, not your in-game character. That is not immersive nor does it contribute to a sense of accomplishment since as you point out correctly, real life is designed horribly. There's no feedback on your progress. The only achievements to be made in a game like Crowfall will be group based, not individual based. 

 

No one will acknowledge you. 

Edited by unknownxv

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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SB had active leveling... and it SUCKED.  The goal was to get your toons leveled as quickly as possible (large quantities of powerleveling) so that you could farm enough gold to build your city and then start to tear everyone else's down.  It was a mindless, boring task.  A necessary evil, if you will.  Leveling isn't fun when your MAIN goal is PVP, IMO.   

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First I'd like to state that we do understand your points, we simply disagree with them.  I myself have played games with the exact systems you're advertising.  They were given a fair chance but disagreed with my ideology.  No other game existed at that time that did so compromises had to be made.

 

 

I guess I have to reiterate again, this means that you do not in anyway have to be maxed to be competitive, and to reach true mastery would require an incredible amount of time and effort. So most won't do it, and that's okay.

 

You want us to play a game of chess except we all start with one less pawn and must work our ass off to earn it.  But you get that extra pawn because you have no life and require a game to satisfy your sense of accomplishment.  How is that at all fostering competition?  If you want mastery, you get it, it's not hard it just requires time.  If it's valuable for PVP, people will macro to get it or grind if they can't.  You grossly underestimate what most people will do to edge out every miniscule advantage from a competitive game.

 

DFO is an MMO that had players rolling up new characters, hitting 50, then deleting them and repeating the process simply because every character you leveled added to your total stats.  Marvel Heroes is another MMO that has players paying to unlock more heroes to do the same, because every maxed character adds to your synergy total.  DDO is yet another where players were rewarded for rebirthing their character to level 1 in exchange for more stat points, which they did repeatedly.  Mabinogi offered the same advantage and was the core element of the game's life skill system.

 

What you see as an "optional mastery system" I see as yet another REQUIRED grind.  If it makes you even 2% better than someone else, it's mandatory.

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