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Gordon Walton - Are You The One Who Brought Us The Nge?


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Awesome awesome post Gordon. Thanks for that explanation!

 

I'm curious though, what do you think about SWGEmu and it's state of near completion since its inception in 2006, or have you not looked into it much? People from SOE (namely John Smedley), have been extremely skeptical and have kind of laughed it off in the past, saying it would never get close to even where it is today.

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Now that SOE is gone (long live Daybreak Games!) we should go ahead and have the Star Wars:Galaxies NGE discussion. I'll start with the easy part:  The NGE was my fault.   I'll also say that memory

I suddenly realized I left something out that was critical to my account, mainly because I take it for granted but players often don't realize it.  The team on SWG loved their game and community.  Eve

Are you kidding, of course I have more stories!  Almost all I've ever done is make games and every game that isn't a disaster, is nearly one! 

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that perhaps the need for fluffier stuff and providing it is not the main reason why ACE hoped anyone was attracted to this game.  Hopefully, when game is launched and active for awhile, the player base is "stickied"  because it is a great game with great gameplay.  Hard for me to believe the ability, or not to hang a picture on a wall, place potted plants on a table, or change the wall color scheme would be a deal breaker in an otherwise great game.

It's not about "deal breakers". It's about a great game that includes gameplay outside of PvP, no matter how minimal. AC designed and is creating a game that includes things that don't involve sticking a knife into someone. These things are interesting to people, and adds another layer to the game that may entice some people to remain active when they otherwise might have moved on. AC knows this, or it wouldn't be in game, heh. You can have a pvp-centric game with non-pvp elements. In fact, this is what AC wants in Crowfall. I'm looking for more info about some technical specifics. I find it disconcerting sometimes how some people simply cannot pass on an opportunity to (not directed necessarily at you E!) attack, malign, dismiss, or otherwise ridicule any discussion, plans, or opinions in CF that isn't directly and solely about martial combat between players. It's here. It's part of the game. It's not going away.

 

TDLR: The 'sheep' will stick around longer if there is something else to do once in a while!

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I swear I heard hearts breaking when you posted GW.   But I am sure everyone appreciates the transparency.   I want CF to be something different.  That's why a lot of us are here.  

 

 

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that perhaps the need for fluffier stuff and providing it is not the main reason why ACE hoped anyone was attracted to this game.  Hopefully, when game is launched and active for awhile, the player base is "stickied"  because it is a great game with great gameplay.  Hard for me to believe the ability, or not to hang a picture on a wall, place potted plants on a table, or change the wall color scheme would be a deal breaker in an otherwise great game.

 

Mine was one, I don't really care for ''housing'' or grand castles etc but I do want to build a inn/tavern with atleast the basic stuff one should have.

It's not about "deal breakers". It's about a great game that includes gameplay outside of PvP, no matter how minimal. AC designed and is creating a game that includes things that don't involve sticking a knife into someone. These things are interesting to people, and adds another layer to the game that may entice some people to remain active when they otherwise might have moved on. AC knows this, or it wouldn't be in game, heh. You can have a pvp-centric game with non-pvp elements. In fact, this is what AC wants in Crowfall. I'm looking for more info about some technical specifics. I find it disconcerting sometimes how some people simply cannot pass on an opportunity to (not directed necessarily at you E!) attack, malign, dismiss, or otherwise ridicule any discussion, plans, or opinions in CF that isn't directly and solely about martial combat between players. It's here. It's part of the game. It's not going away.

 

TDLR: The 'sheep' will stick around longer if there is something else to do once in a while!

I'll add to this(this is purely my opinion!). If I wanted to play a game for pure PvP and constant combat I would play FPS or MOBAs. Crowfall is a PvP-mmorpgrts, which means while the main focus is PvP you will be able to do things out of it. The PvE of this game is actually a part of the PvP ,first of all surviving in the world from all the threats that exist in it, second is discovering the world (making a map etc) and third clearing POI from monsters like mines and dungeons or forts/castles that are defended by their previous inhabitants that may house treasures like ''cut'' gems or gold bars(as equipment drop won't exist as far I remember), and other things like that (these are the most important PvE elements of this game imo (I may be forgetting quite a few though :P)).Crafting... I won't talk about that I think people have said everything I could. Now as for the RP element of the game, this could be accomplished in many ways, unique customization is one (but can't be done when you want massive and strategical battles) and player housing can be used for it too, as I said above if it is possible I would like to make a inn/tavern for RP, sharing stories from our last campaign while sipping ale or maybe start a brawl because we don't like someone(ideas that are hard to implement of course but I can dream), but most importantly(as long your opponent has humour and the will) while in combat which can create some funny situations(and maybe some really disastrous ones too) or conversing with your team mates in role.

I think I only scratched the surface of what can be done in game.

 

TDLR: There are many things that can be done in Crowfall other than only PvP  (imo).

Edited by Wotaze
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It's not about "deal breakers". It's about a great game that includes gameplay outside of PvP, no matter how minimal. AC designed and is creating a game that includes things that don't involve sticking a knife into someone. These things are interesting to people, and adds another layer to the game that may entice some people to remain active when they otherwise might have moved on. AC knows this, or it wouldn't be in game, heh. You can have a pvp-centric game with non-pvp elements. In fact, this is what AC wants in Crowfall. I'm looking for more info about some technical specifics. I find it disconcerting sometimes how some people simply cannot pass on an opportunity to (not directed necessarily at you E!) attack, malign, dismiss, or otherwise ridicule any discussion, plans, or opinions in CF that isn't directly and solely about martial combat between players. It's here. It's part of the game. It's not going away.

 

TDLR: The 'sheep' will stick around longer if there is something else to do once in a while!

 

I'm not going to sit here and tell ACE what they know they should and should not do. However, I think on their limited budget pushing out polished and extensive PVP mechanics for a pvp-centric game holds a much higher priority. Appeasing the carebears is a slippery slope and why a lot of games go stagnant. I let you hang your pictures, next you demand to build a garden, and then you need a character customization suite like Black Desert. The insatiable appetite to feel 'immersed' is something that can never be satisfied, even for a game with hundreds of millions in budget (proven by the past). ACE has even stated themselves in regards to their art style how they knew going realistic was the wrong route for some of these reasons, and I hope they keep with that mind-set for other things as well.

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It's not about "deal breakers". It's about a great game that includes gameplay outside of PvP, no matter how minimal. AC designed and is creating a game that includes things that don't involve sticking a knife into someone. These things are interesting to people, and adds another layer to the game that may entice some people to remain active when they otherwise might have moved on. AC knows this, or it wouldn't be in game, heh. You can have a pvp-centric game with non-pvp elements. In fact, this is what AC wants in Crowfall. I'm looking for more info about some technical specifics. I find it disconcerting sometimes how some people simply cannot pass on an opportunity to (not directed necessarily at you E!) attack, malign, dismiss, or otherwise ridicule any discussion, plans, or opinions in CF that isn't directly and solely about martial combat between players. It's here. It's part of the game. It's not going away.

 

TDLR: The 'sheep' will stick around longer if there is something else to do once in a while!

I agree the sheep are here.   However, the Fluffier things are "here"too.  The EK.   How "fluffy" it will be can not be a "sticky" point, IMHO, in a game, not so much saying "PvPcentric" as campaign oriented.   Remember, the whole point is that the "players" make the story.  The "story" need not have to be made by tiny little objects for cosmetic purposes , only.  Stories are created in your mind!   This is not to ridicule at all.  Not even in support of PvP.  It's in support of creating a "story"  w/ very few props.   Player made.    

Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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why do you guys keep making these custard stupid "are you responsible for" topics

 

do you get that game devs dont usually get free reign on this kind of stuff

 

more than likely some high up person at the company said "hey, make the game more palatable to a bigger group of people" and so he did

 

its not like they decided to just do stuff for poorly made sockss and giggles

 

Hilarious because doesn't know the dev himself created the thread.

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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I think on their limited budget pushing out polished and extensive PVP mechanics for a pvp-centric game holds a much higher priority. 

This is true. My highest hopes for EK aren't likely to happen until after the official launch. And that's good, since by then I will probably be bored with the PvP and looking to do something else. Then again, if crafting is all we hope it might be, I might be spending all my time in campaigns and the EK crafting instead of fighting. I could go for that too (now I have Hall & Oates running in the background). Luckily for us, "polish" for PvP is all about class abilities, animations, balance, etc... We provide the 'content' for free by fighting each other. They can therefore spend that time on other stuff, heh. I think your brilliant idea for a Black Desert character customization is a winner! I will be sure to send GW and Todd notice that you think this should be a thing!  :P

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This is true. My highest hopes for EK aren't likely to happen until after the official launch. And that's good, since by then I will probably be bored with the PvP and looking to do something else. Then again, if crafting is all we hope it might be, I might be spending all my time in campaigns and the EK crafting instead of fighting. I could go for that too (now I have Hall & Oates running in the background). Luckily for us, "polish" for PvP is all about class abilities, animations, balance, etc... We provide the 'content' for free by fighting each other. They can therefore spend that time on other stuff, heh. I think your brilliant idea for a Black Desert character customization is a winner! I will be sure to send GW and Todd notice that you think this should be a thing!  :P

Why are you trying to invest yourself so heavily into a PVP game, when you plan on being bored of PVP shortly? I have a feeling you're going to be sorely disappointed when this doesn't turn into simcity meets swg-house-builder online. Also, there's a lot more the devs need to bring to the table for emergent PVP on top of that basic list, but we know from their previous games they have that covered. You're adamant at least, I'll give you that.

 

I think you're having a hard time with this word, so let me help you:

 

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World of Warcraft made such a big splash in the gaming market that it took us ten years just to get to this point where people can dare to be different. I don't feel bad that some of these other games have failed over the years, they can't all be winners. Every failure must be getting you closer to a success, we're all rooting for you because we believe this is it.

 

You, J Todd and the rest of the team will knock it out of the park.

Edited by Gideon
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I will say that is pretty humble of you, mate, but I'm inclined to say that it's really not your fault. You knew what was going to happen, and you had little power to really salvage the whole mess.

 

The short answer? No PvE content.

 

PvE content requires a dozen engineers to create a cool quest/raid system, a dozen content designers to "make poorly made socks up" for it, then handing that over to the dozen asset folks who have to make said poorly made socks look good. Then it needs to be placed in the game by the dozen folks on the world team, then QA'd by a dozen in-house or third-party folks.

 

By the time you're done making the intro area for your themepark you've spent several million just on salary. So leaving all of that themepark-ness out means you can cut the cost of development by half or more, instantly.

 

This is pretty much it in a nutshell. This is kinda why I'm excited to see more procedurally generated stuff like Crowfall and No Man's Sky. A well-designed procedural generation system can easily generate tons of unique content without that much extra work on the side of the developers - NMS in particular is far more in-depth in the procedural generation than even Spore ever was, and yet the game looks absolutely stunning, there's so much thought put into the procedural generation with the programmers and artists collaborating to create fantastic results. Grant Duncan's GDC presentation is a must-see.

 

Though there can also be more to things than just procedurally generated content and worlds. For example, Phantasy Star Online 2, like its predecessor, is a more focused experience rather than a sandbox, focusing on smaller areas and randomly-generated encounters outside of certain quests, and most bosses can be fought literally anywhere. Imagine mixing that with a procedurally-generated galaxy, with randomly-generated quests sending you across the galaxy to new planets, encouraging you to see new things, but also there being a few 'persistent' worlds that have a generated base with unique 'seeds' (a seed is basically a number used by a procedural generation system to achieve a specific result using its algorithms) for a specific look, and then with dev-created content on top of that. Hell, why not take a page from The Matrix Online as well and have actual players roleplay story characters, including antagonists? That would be all kinds of crazy fun.

 

... Speaking of which, it's actually kinda crazy how nobody else ever tried a story like The Matrix Online. Hell, one faction actually affected the story because of a gigantic brawl with a another, if I recall correctly, though it was mostly pre-determined events. It would be fun to see an MMO storyline that could be progressed and affected by player initiative, I'm pretty sure that hasn't happened yet, but stuff like ARGs do provide pointers on how that can be done.

 

But, yeah, that's pretty much an example of how procedural generation can potentially expand possibilities for how MMO content is created and shaped. A static sandbox where nothing happens isn't fun, I want to see universes change, because of the actions of the players, and how they interact with it and its story.

Edited by Candescence
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This is pretty much it in a nutshell. This is kinda why I'm excited to see more procedurally generated stuff like Crowfall and No Man's Sky. A well-designed procedural generation system can easily generate tons of unique content without that much extra work on the side of the developers - NMS in particular is far more in-depth in the procedural generation than even Spore ever was, and yet the game looks absolutely stunning, there's so much thought put into the procedural generation with the programmers and artists collaborating to create fantastic results. Grant Duncan's GDC presentation is a must-see.

I suggested a while back here that ArtCraft make use of distributed computing like Seti@Home does and let players donate their hardware to help render and generate Crowfall stuff.

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Gordon,

 

I appreciate this addition you've given us to the SWG story.

 

When I heard of the game through Kickstarter, I was very interested in it's initial pitch. The more and more I learned of Crowfall, the more I realized this was a game I very much wanted to be a part of. I spent some time browsing the forums here for information, where I learned of your role with changes made to UO, and possibly SWG. I never played UO, but SWG I did play, from launch to NGE, and then here and there until the game sadly shutdown. I consider myself one of the anti-SOE activists that you describe (as is everyone I know that played), because of what happened. Your potential involvement with those disastrous changes to SWG, was the only thing that held me back from pledging to Crowfall. I fought with this until the final hours of the Kickstarter, before I decided to back the project.

 

So when I saw your post this morning, and started to read, I felt sick to my stomach.

 

I read through the remainder to absorb your account, and then found myself feeling delighted, and a bit ashamed. Knowing now that you actually fought back when you realized the direction the NGE would take the game, made me very happy. Learning this morning that your intentions were to solve the problems, and better the game, makes me feel ashamed that I had doubted your involvement with SWG. With this one post, you turned from someone that I had envisioned in the back of my mind as possibly the main person responsible for the worst turning point in MMO history, to someone who I can feel completely comfortable with developing games.

 

I respect you now Gordon Walton, and I want to thank you for making my day, and ending any bad feelings I had for backing Crowfall.

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I always felt if SWG came out without the massive bugs, better combat, and with the content added over the first couple of years we would have never seen the WOWpark obsession because SWG would have established the role play sandbox as a money maker. I think it would have started with 400k, retained them, then grown over the first couple of years. The bar to "make money" would have been set so much higher with such a deeper type of game, it could have shifted the genre and spared us from 10 years of WOW clones (as it may have nudged Blizz to make even WOW less controlled or at least given us two bigger money making MMO styles). Maybe not... Sigh, its a dream, one that can never truly be proven.

 

True, can never be proven. But these ten years of WoW reign cost us all dearly. While MMORPG Renaissance is on horizon I sometimes wonder what could have happened if not for WoW. People became so obsessed with WoW's success they tried to emulate that and after awhile it became not WoW, but MMROPG standard in eyes of many. I heard people talking about what should be expected from MMORPG and that the game they discussed is not doing good job by delivering different 'not MMORPG system' when in fact they described WoW mechanic as default (alas, I can't test SWGEmu on them - I'd love to). The only thing WoW did is to put MMORPGs on map, but to be honest 1) I am not that thrilled about it, while seeing benefits too 2) computers in general became much more accessible over past quarter of century so it's not all WoW.

 

And if it could have been SWG as lead I think MMORPG landscape would not only be different, but also much more interesting. That or MMORPGs as direction might stay niche thing. One can guess forever.

 

I'll start with the easy part:  The NGE was my fault.

 

Since I am late to the party I will echo previous orators: it's your idea, not your fault. You are no more responsible for NGE then anyone who came up with idea just to see others use it sideways. I can understand why it was aimed for more dynamic combat - not everyone like combat queues. And planetary control is always fun.

 

It is always the brass who... *Darth Veiderish breathing* ... ... Never mind. *mumbling* There is no emotion, there is peace.

:)

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There is a reason SOE was/is banned from my wallet. NGE and the decimation of an amazing title in SWG was the final nail in the coffin. Look at it this way Gordon, it could be worse, your name could be John Smedely...

 

Edit: I misspelled John the Destroyer of Games last name.

Edited by Tasorin
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Lots of folk reacted this way to NGE. And I know a guy who stayed true to his word till this day. No other games, not even a peek, no nothing. Completely ignoring everything SOE.

 

I guess NGE influenced more then SWG. Players are passionate people, that is.

Edited by rolan storm

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For many a years I was saddend by the introduction of NGE, but then again it made me go to WOW, which equally gave me lots & lots of years of enjoyment. I hope you implement some of the awesomeness of what was SWG pre NGE/CU which was the necessity of other players to be able to play. I loved having to harvest stuff to give to others who created items, or beign a musician or a medic spamming buffs that I sold in star ports or beign a slizer selling slizing on weapons or armour outside cantina's. All in all it was a great comunity back then with lots & lots of player interaction. An interaction that I have never experienced since then.

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Back then, I didn't care much to post on forums about games, and what not, I just played to play.

 

All I remember with SWG was having a total blast for a long time, and playing basically every night. Then I remember logging in and being killed by a bunny in the desert on my maxed out bounty hunter. That is when I stopped playing.

 

I had fun with SWG, and I am sure it improved more after I left. But the changes were just too dramatic for me to stay at the time. I still don't understand how the same mistakes are made over and over and over again in this industry. I am glad to see the indie developers stepping up to the plate though, hopefully we can burn all the publishers to the ground over the next few years.

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