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Crowfall & World Of Warcraft

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um wow had pvp? I  mean sure it had battle grounds where you let one side win quick then you win, and yada yada and you farmed honor... but pvp?

Thats like saying Huttball was pvp

WoW actually had an arena system that became the biggest mmorpg esport.  It crushed viewership numbers over every other esport at the time.  The reason it isn't a consistently played esport anymore (they've opted instead just to celebrate it at blizzcon) is because blizzard did not want to balance for arena and pve, they care more about their pve playerbase, which of course is the correct choice for a game like WoW. 

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The correlation of WOW and Crowfall was essentially that you could infer that World of Warcraft expansion cycles were identical to what campaigns look like to be. Here are the similarities:

 

1) In WOW, from the point the point of view from your character, the old world is essentially gone and made irrelevant much like Campaign worlds are destroyed at the beginning of an expansion.

 

2) At the beginning of the expansion your old gear is replaced within the first few hours of the game through early quest rewards. Much like how Crowfall, you will start campaigns (though the rules will vary) essentially from scratch as well.

 

3) The fresh "mmo launch rush" the developers talk about is just like the launch of a WOW expansion.

 

4) The only persistence is your character (levels in WOW, skills in CF).

 

So you might think that is a stretch or that's a stupid correlation, but I don't. The core to any game design, especially when you are trying to create an ecosystem in which you need a critical mass of players, is understanding player behavior. Everything else is almost secondary. This is high level design stuff. How can you use player behavior in WOW at the beginning of an expansion cycle, in the middle, almost at the end and close to the end to help shape systems in Crowfall because that will be the key to retaining players and not pissing them off with a loss.

 

You can even use those cycle points to represent the seasons in CF.

 

So ultimately, I'm not comparing PVE vs. PVP content. Obviously WOW is a PVE game and CF is a PVP game. One has a standard DIKU stat system where gear gets you +gooder and gear can not be taken out of the ecosystem where in CF gear is more transient and more of a tool because it can be lost. Combat will (hopefully) be completely different as well.

 

So we're not comparing game systems and however we are comparing player behavior inside different game dynamics.

 

Why do you see a large spike of players in the beginning of an expansion?

Why do you see a drop of players late in the expansion cycle?

Why do you see a large spike of players right before the expansion starts?

What keeps players playing between the start of an expansion into the 2nd or 3rd quarter of the expansion cycle?

 

If you can answer those questions for WOW, you can use some of those design principles and mold them into game elements for Crowfall. For example, you tend to see large amounts of players coming back right before the expansion. These people are usually catching up and "prepping" for launch. Can you design certain elements in CF that mimic this behavior? Can you create campaigns that have softer or easier export rules so that players can prep for their next campaign long after they gave up? Or can you create additional bonuses that keep players in at the end?

 

Maybe your skills train faster during the winter when you are actively playing? This can be considered prep work for future campaigns no?

 

So there you have it. You can use almost any game with a critical mass of players, but there aren't many, if at any at all, that you can use that are like WOW. Hari Seldon would agree with me on that one.


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Co-Host of Crowns and Crows Livestream: Every Tuesday 8:30pm EST
Follow me on Twitter: @jdodge80

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The correlation of WOW and Crowfall was essentially that you could infer that World of Warcraft expansion cycles were identical to what campaigns look like to be. Here are the similarities:

 

1) In WOW, from the point the point of view from your character, the old world is essentially gone and made irrelevant much like Campaign worlds are destroyed at the beginning of an expansion.

 

2) At the beginning of the expansion your old gear is replaced within the first few hours of the game through early quest rewards. Much like how Crowfall, you will start campaigns (though the rules will vary) essentially from scratch as well.

 

3) The fresh "mmo launch rush" the developers talk about is just like the launch of a WOW expansion.

 

4) The only persistence is your character (levels in WOW, skills in CF).

 

So you might think that is a stretch or that's a stupid correlation, but I don't. The core to any game design, especially when you are trying to create an ecosystem in which you need a critical mass of players, is understanding player behavior. Everything else is almost secondary. This is high level design stuff. How can you use player behavior in WOW at the beginning of an expansion cycle, in the middle, almost at the end and close to the end to help shape systems in Crowfall because that will be the key to retaining players and not pissing them off with a loss.

 

You can even use those cycle points to represent the seasons in CF.

 

So ultimately, I'm not comparing PVE vs. PVP content. Obviously WOW is a PVE game and CF is a PVP game. One has a standard DIKU stat system where gear gets you +gooder and gear can not be taken out of the ecosystem where in CF gear is more transient and more of a tool because it can be lost. Combat will (hopefully) be completely different as well.

 

So we're not comparing game systems and however we are comparing player behavior inside different game dynamics.

 

Why do you see a large spike of players in the beginning of an expansion?

Why do you see a drop of players late in the expansion cycle?

Why do you see a large spike of players right before the expansion starts?

What keeps players playing between the start of an expansion into the 2nd or 3rd quarter of the expansion cycle?

 

If you can answer those questions for WOW, you can use some of those design principles and mold them into game elements for Crowfall. For example, you tend to see large amounts of players coming back right before the expansion. These people are usually catching up and "prepping" for launch. Can you design certain elements in CF that mimic this behavior? Can you create campaigns that have softer or easier export rules so that players can prep for their next campaign long after they gave up? Or can you create additional bonuses that keep players in at the end?

 

Maybe your skills train faster during the winter when you are actively playing? This can be considered prep work for future campaigns no?

 

So there you have it. You can use almost any game with a critical mass of players, but there aren't many, if at any at all, that you can use that are like WOW. Hari Seldon would agree with me on that one.

 

This was actually a great point, one I discussed (although not at such a complex level) with my S/O and one they even touched on to some extent in interviews.

When playing an MMO for the first time, there's this whole new world to discover and it's exhilarating to experience, but time decays the feeling and everything is ultimately familiar. Expansions give something of this feeling again when exploring them, and again they decay. This was discussed in some interview, but I forget where.

 

It's a great point to make, and you extrapolate on it and look at it in terms of player behavior and population spikes, but ultimately I can't help but find the way you posted it on the forums somewhat in poor taste. It'd be greater, in my opinion, if you didn't try to engage the community in a clickbaity way and say "Oh well find out in my podcast".

 

Not actively condemning you, simply expressing how I see it, and also trying to explain why there's been so much backlash from all of this.

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This could be compared to the first time experience of any game, or the feel of the first turn/few minutes of a strategy game. The unknown discovery is real, and the need to capture that level of psychology is important.

 

That said, viewership pumping thread officially confirmed.

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I've gotten more +likes from this thread than people complaining that I hurt their feelings because we put such a silly teaser to the show. If people think that is in poor taste, then I can't help that. I think maybe people should lighten up a little bit.

 

I'm still putting on a show, and I'll get more viewers and gain more exposure doing silly gimmicks like this than stating a TL;DR wonkish article on game design in the OP of a thread.

 

If you still disagree with that point, well we can do some marketing shop talk on the side. I'm in IRC if you want to engage me on that.


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Co-Host of Crowns and Crows Livestream: Every Tuesday 8:30pm EST
Follow me on Twitter: @jdodge80

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um wow had pvp? I  mean sure it had battle grounds where you let one side win quick then you win, and yada yada and you farmed honor... but pvp?

Thats like saying Huttball was pvp

Oh yes, WoW had pvp.  And it was glorious.  Tauren Mill vs Southshore was all open world and all murder death kill.

 

Then a few months after release, they added battlegrounds.

 

Fastest.  World PVP.  Death.  Ever.

 

 

 

I think Blizzard saw everyone from both factions gathering at the same location each day, assaulting each other repeatedly in "teams" of Horde vs Alliance, then thought adding an instance that replicated that was what people wanted.  It completely murdered PVP.

Edited by Kyutaru

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This could be compared to the first time experience of any game, or the feel of the first turn/few minutes of a strategy game. The unknown discovery is real, and the need to capture that level of psychology is important.

 

That said, viewership pumping thread officially confirmed.

The beginning of the cycle or first few turns I can agree with. But what is unique, I think, is the purposeful cycle of Campaigns. GW2/ESO weekly or bi monthly cycles are far too short for the comparison to work, especially when the maps are identical every time. I thought any MMO with a significant player base and a proven expansion cycle would work. That's really only WOW imo; every other game doesn't have a real proven development cycle.

 

As to a viewership pumping thread, I think we confirmed that for you on the first page. Wasn't it obvious in the OP?

 

Edit:

I think every person who creates content whether it's fansite or podcast or art work should pump their stuff on the front page of this forum. The more people who get excited about the game and want to share it with the community the better. Most of the time stuff gets lost in those other forums. If you don't like something, don't read it. Are you worried that it's going to bump the "Crofall isn't a PVP mmo" thread off the front page?

Edited by draegan

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Co-Host of Crowns and Crows Livestream: Every Tuesday 8:30pm EST
Follow me on Twitter: @jdodge80

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No, it wasn't because I was trying to garner attention to the discussion we wanted to have.  Other people pointed out how easy it was for me to make this all about the show, and they talked about the show enough I updated the OP with the link.

 

I think there was some good discussion here outside of the argument taking place on the side about the merits of this thread.  But hey, I'm just the OP. ;)

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DUDE HE'S TRYING TO PROMOTE A PODCAST THAT PROMOTES CROWFALL. IT'S ALL GOOD ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

 

Dmbrandon was promoting crowfall on his twitch stream, where were you then courant? WHERE. WERE. YOU. THEN?


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This could be compared to the first time experience of any game, or the feel of the first turn/few minutes of a strategy game. The unknown discovery is real, and the need to capture that level of psychology is important.

I agree and I think other games use similar methods to fulfill that human emotion. People love the feeling of unknown and I feel CF is going to capture that well with campaigns, different rule sets, and changing terrain/maps. There are many people concerned about the actually feeling of persistent and value. Things that ease my mind in particular are the tournament campaigns. That adds value to my character progression. For others the EK, economic wealth, and prestigious cosmetics might be the answer.

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Explain how it was something negative for us or for Crowfall.

Which one?


☆ We are in a positive posting drought, so just post. Be the change you want the forums to be. Go wild. Just follow your positive posting star. ☆
☆:*´¨`*:.•.¸¸.•´¯`•.♥.•´¯`•.¸¸.•..:*´¨`*:.☆

(¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯) Member of the Pro-ACE Club (¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯)

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I totally correctly guessed the association immediately after Valor gave his hint! At that point, the thread didn't say that you were supposed to wait until the show to guess ( I was unable to tune in)! Looks like I missed my opportunity for the prize.

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