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cyjax

Sbemu - How Does It Stack Up Against Magicbane?

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I didn't use you that time but others were and of course I have on about a dozen other occasions just on this board.  I post a little picture or a few sentences and come back later to a page or two of text.  Also someone needs to point and lol when you try and slip gool in with real guilds that "arguably they were some of the best guilds who ever graced the game"

 

There isn't a single instance on these forums or otherwise where you've prompted a page or two of text from me after posting a little picture. Aside from only writing relatively dull posts that are utterly devoid of any insight, wit, or humor, you have a wild imagination. Is it even possible for you to post something that is actually true?

 

As for your opinion about GooL, let's recite a few facts and let them speak for themselves. GooL demolished QFT at every opportunity and had a far superior roster. GooL seized cities that QFT was unable to take, and with fewer numbers at that. GooL regularly won offensive banes despite being outnumbered by more than two times at many of them; QFT couldn't win an offensive bane unless they fielded an equal or superior number of characters to their foes. GooL seized numerous cities with both caster and tank spec groups, whereas QFT couldn't even run casters without embarrassing themselves. GooL defended a number of their cities with less than a handful of players against multiple groups of scrubs, repeatedly - QFT could never risk fielding less than 2 groups in any instance, and whenever their numbers dropped a bit they would simply guild more Mourning server board-warrior fodder. All of the junk left over by the GooL IC paid for two and a half years of my undergraduate expenses. GooL didn't have any notable Vengeance players defect from the main guild, while several defected from QFT to GooL (resulting in the shedding of tears and Malok issuing psychotic RL threats on public forums). Overall, I'd say that's a pretty leet legacy, at least vis-a-vis your own guild. When "elite" players who had played under both crests had to choose between playing with one or the other while we were active, they all chose GooL, and that speaks volumes. GooL only had quality players within its ranks, while QFT recruited anyone with a pulse and a high post count after they migrated to Mourning.

 

If you ever want a fair assessment of GooL or even the Reptilians, you can always ask the folks who played under the crest and who weren't a part of the leadership. Hell, you can even talk to some of the M2S folks who are/were not a part of the guild at all and who played under us for a time for an objective appraisal. It would actually be a good idea to "reality check" yourself in such a way, as it is clear you sit under a cloud of denial when it comes to the guild. I'm pretty sure that we romped you guys so hard that we gave you, Unknewn, Zooks, and Malok PTSD.

Edited by managainsttime

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Scourge of the Shadowbane community, Public Enemy No. 1 to the SBEMU Forum Moderators, and member of the "Suppressed Person" faction on the Ubiforums. The man responsible for hooking up Ceska and CheckYoTrack. Also a 21-time World Heavyweight Champion of Shadowbane.

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Spin how you like. We burned your tree (you've misstated this twice) and you then you allied with your supposed arch-enemy, Validation, as well as China and came after us. And you really performed poorly even then.

 

And then, if I'm remembering right, on the very next server ... one with a hard 2 box limit, we came at Validouches and burned their asses down even numbers. 

 

Is that about right Vandarr?

Didn't it start with a single box?

 

Anyhow, from what I saw, yes, but to be clear, you were with Silvermoon that phase, so it's not like I was there for that. I popped onto track range for a couple of your sieges just to see what numbers were like, but I believe those may have both been defensive on your part.

 

Validation took a town from us (OCC) in the first (or second maybe) bane that phase - numbers were pretty rough in favor of them, and we were going loreplay vs. their ARAC, but that was our decision, as we rebuffed several offers of assistance. The server bombed out on us, and we just couldn't keep a group in game at any given time, so they eventually took the town. Had the server not sucked so bad, we may not have won, but we wouldn't made it a good time for all. As it was, no one did.


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Apparently your comments about anyone's memory are utterly unwarranted, as my PM (the one you cited, may I add) specifically concerned your persistence in comparing the number of CR players active in their voice comm server to the number of characters fielded by CR's opposition.

 

I am going to restate once more that this has never been my stance. Retune, and to a certain extend Hidetade/Kris/Effeckted constantly whined about how they could only barely field a group in vent, and I was merciless in driving home the point that toons in the field were the only way to accurately assess forces. As I've said repeatedly and for years, I can't PK you in vent.

 

 

It should be clear to anyone - even those individuals whose reading comprehension supposedly sucks - that I am directly referencing your then common practice of using the number of active players in your voice comm server in a comparison to the number of in-game characters fielded by your opposition. If your position has "always been" that the number of characters is the relevant statistic in a fight, that begs the question of why I would send you a PM criticizing your practice of using the number of players in your voice comm server (or screenshots evincing such) in your statistical arguments in the first place - particularly when those numbers are juxtaposed to the number of in-game characters fielded by your opposition. Indeed, if you had adhered to your supposedly perpetual and time-honored practice of only using characters for the relevant statistic, the PM that you had chopped and quoted would have made absolutely no sense under the circumstances. This is why I related to you the circumstances (at least in my judgment) under which such voice comm server screenshots could be probative. It seems to me that your own memory is the one that is failing, at least in this particular instance.

 

 Here's the full conversation, Hydetade insults included. Note that I offered nation and voice comms, and you immediately jumped on the voice comms because that is the stance you and your allies had regarding counting numbers. I offered nation data as that is the data I considered relevant, and once again, I have no insight into your voice comms, so without comparing toons in the field on both sides, I have no data. (Top message is the last, so read from bottom up).:

 

 

Vandarr

Message subject: Re: Commanders Reborn: Hung, salted and devoured like a fine
Folder: Sent messages
I absolutely agree. I usually take multiples - to be blunt, I just find it interesting to see the ebb and flow of things.

 

Generally, I screenshot the bane live, the bane down, and usually 1-2 times in between, just after major engagements when I'm either in DS or looting graves.

 

Regarding contacting HYDETADE rather than you, I think you're a reasonable adult. I don't think HYDETADE is either of those things, so a discussion like this would be an absolute waste of my time.

 

Sent: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:34 am

 

  
icon_post_quote.gif

spacer.gifManAgainstTime

Message subject: Re: Commanders Reborn: Hung, salted and devoured like a fine
Folder: Inbox
I don't really doubt your numerical claims. This PM might be more appropriate for HYDETADE.

 

Nonetheless, the evidentiary value of these screenshots arguably do not amount to much regardless. Even if you're being 100% honest, you're taking an SS of the TS at one point during the bane and that time could coincidentally be your low water mark in terms of server population during the engagement. Likewise, if I am taking SS's of my Ventrilo, I could (I'm not saying I would do this) effectively hide a number of users from the SS through various means to deflate numbers. That being said, several screenshots of the same TS during the same bane would prove to be very probable evidence.

 

Sent: Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:21 am
View message | Post a reply

 

  
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spacer.gifVandarr

Message subject: Re: Commanders Reborn: Hung, salted and devoured like a fine
Folder: Sent messages
If you care, I can send/post screenshots regarding both TS and nation numbers at every bane I attended.

 

As for your link, once again, you have cited something that has absolutely no probative value under the circumstances. The results of that search do not contain any data from the relevant discussions, and one cannot even unearth the particular arguments that occurred on the SBEMU Political forums during that phase of the beta. Indeed, aside from the first result, all of the referenced posts occurred after our relevant discussions took place, even after the quoted PM I had sent to you, and accordingly show nothing of worth. I personally wish that those forums were preserved for historical archival purposes, but they are no more and have been no more for quite some time.

 

 

Here's a series of numbers discussing what toons were in the field at the banes I screenshot above, plus some additional banes. Note - while the forum posts you're referring to are no longer able to be accessed, the SB vids, spreadsheets I compiled, etc. still exist - and most of the text below (which was in those links) were direct copies from previous discussions on the same topic, just as I'm doing here.

 

 

 

One thing to note before we get started on numbers. As a rule of thumb, I use nation /who for CR numbers, so as to represent the maximum toons potentially in the field at a given time. Other forces are generally represented by an actual count of toons in track range of the tree unless anotehr method of counting is specified.

 

Winterblades - NZSP had at least 11 toons in the field from the time I logged in until the tree fell (Numbers fluctuated, and went as high as 15). As I've said elsewhere, I feel even with the numbers y'all brought, we should have won this bane. With that said, CN's addition brought a bane that should have been approximately a 20% advantage in numbers in your favor to a 40% advantage in numbers. (I'm not going to post every screenshot tonight, but here's a sample.)

 
winterbladesdefensive-Chet.jpg

Widowmakers - We maxxed at 49 toons online from the time I logged in at 10:36 EDT (36 minutes into live). At that time, y'all had 68 toons online, 60 of whom I can confirm were in the field and at the bane within a few minutes of my arrival. NZSP had 12 online, 8 of whom I can confirm were in the field within the same time parameters. As at the Winterblades bane, you're looking at approximately a 20% advantage in numbers, but a 40% advantage when you add your group of CN as well.

 

Dystopia offensive - Here we're trying to take one of our towns back. At bane live, our TS was 22 people, /who was 40 toons. Y'all had 70 toons in the field not including the couple of random CN scouts harassing us around our town. Validation had 27 toons, WM had 26, and NZSP had 17. That's a 25% numbers advantage pushed to a 75% numbers advantage. On defense.

 

SD - WM and validation provided nearly 4 groups of a force on a CN bane against SD's town. Being that it was the moon festival, this was a Chinese holiday, so there was already max attendance from CN. I'd say that made a difference, considering NZSP had tried repeatedly to take that town (including with retagged Validation toons), had already shown themselves capable of fielding 7 groups when they took WM's towns a few weeks prior, and had failed to breach the walls on numerous previous attempts.

 

and what were WM's numbers during that bane where CR took Holam's town?

WM stayed pretty steady at between 26 and 28 toons after our initial push. Validation brought enough to double your numbers at the end, along with 3 NZSP toons. Unfortunately for y'all, the 2am bane time enabled a number of Euros from SD to log in concurrent with US folks getting home from bars, so we were hitting our peak numbers. There's no doubt we outnumbered you significantly at this bane - but you'll also note that the numbers differential here was nowhere close to what you and your allies would later bring to our trees over and over again.

Edited by vandarr

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You guys should stop before doom gets you banned for having a conversation without him. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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You're clearly missing the point. The PM that you cited quotes me as saying the following: "Even if you're being 100% honest, you're taking an SS of the TS at one point during the bane and that time could coincidentally be your low water mark in terms of server population during the engagement. Likewise, if I am taking SS's of my Ventrilo, I could (I'm not saying I would do this) effectively hide a number of users from the SS through various means to deflate numbers. That being said, several screenshots of the same TS during the same bane would prove to be very probable evidence." This statement, as I said before, would make no sense if it was not in response to your adopted practice of using screenshots from your own nation's voice comm server (without using screenshots of the same from the opposing forces) for the purpose of comparing force numbers. If you had never adopted this practice as you allege, then you would have never prompted such a response from me. The fact of the matter is that I wrote this PM in response to your practice of comparing the numbers of your own voice comm server at one particular point in time to the number of characters fielded by the opposition, which is inherently flawed. Now you are trying to suggest that such never happened, indeed, that such violates your alleged time-honored practice of supposedly only comparing character numbers, but if that were the case such a PM would have never been sent from me, nor would it have warranted any response from you beyond "huh? I never used voice comm server screenshots."

 

As for the restating of your numerical estimates, I object to their validity today every bit as much as I objected to their validity before. Pulling numbers out of thin air does not make them valid, and restating the same does not make them anymore valid from before. This is all that you are doing, and I fail to see the purpose of repeating those estimates here (perhaps you are hoping that restating them will somehow provide them with credibility on the record, or perhaps you are simply trying to distract from the substance of a prior argument). While I cannot speak to the candor of the estimates from every single bane in that war, I can speak about the numerical estimates from the banes that saw my own active participation. In this case, I participated in almost the entirety of the Holam town bane that sparked this war. I know with 100% certainty that WM never came close to fielding a "steady 26 to 28 toons" at any point, and that in fact we fielded less than 2 groups of characters for the majority of the bane.

 

Now, if you have any proof that this is otherwise, feel free to provide it. Merely repeating an incorrect estimate like "26 to 28 toons," over and over again, will not make it any more true now than it was then. As always, your numerical estimates exaggerate the forces of your foes and are overly generous to the numbers fielded by your own nation. This is very typical board-warrior practice in forum-bane, and as a tactic would not be surprising to anyone. In your case, however, you operate according to this false pretense that your numerical estimates are somehow objective, impartial, and empirical, when nothing could in fact be further from the truth. Unless you can provide evidence that these estimates are valid, your math is as good as Caliman's. If anything, Dubanka's attempts were purportedly more honest, and he never made the claim that his estimates are close to exact or even systematic.

Edited by managainsttime

4H4LmCE.gif

Scourge of the Shadowbane community, Public Enemy No. 1 to the SBEMU Forum Moderators, and member of the "Suppressed Person" faction on the Ubiforums. The man responsible for hooking up Ceska and CheckYoTrack. Also a 21-time World Heavyweight Champion of Shadowbane.

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If I was like Beetlejuice and appeared whenever MaT said my name three times, I'd have more posts than Doc.

 

Some prefer open confrontation, whereas others prefer passive-aggressive forum moderation and backroom chicanery. I would actually be doing you a favor if I were summoning you like Beetlejuice - as you note, though, being like Beetlejuice would require you to actually appear, as opposed to lurking in perpetuity. It may never have dawned on you, but perhaps I mention you because I know you're always there, reading, lurking, and sometimes referring posters for moderation or some other penalty if they mention a certain character from Superbad.

 

Some even prefer to actually play the game of the gaming communities that they moderate. :D

Edited by managainsttime

4H4LmCE.gif

Scourge of the Shadowbane community, Public Enemy No. 1 to the SBEMU Forum Moderators, and member of the "Suppressed Person" faction on the Ubiforums. The man responsible for hooking up Ceska and CheckYoTrack. Also a 21-time World Heavyweight Champion of Shadowbane.

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Couple of quick comments:

  • Regarding wall of text #1 - Your response was directed at TS because that was YOU and YOUR ALLIES accepted practice at the time, not mine. Feel free to find and link any time I have said that. Once again, I'll state that I have never posted such as truth - and I don't even recall doing so as sarcasm. It's easy to have perfect memory when you tell the truth.
  • On wall of text #2 - Your objection is noted, and invalid. Attempting to slander my integrity doesn't make your zerg smaller.
  • On Holam's town, I stated several times that we significantly outnumbered you. Why do you want me to prove it? That's just silly, and shows that you are grasping at straws in an attempt to obfuscate that you have zero evidence to your claims. In fact, in 18 months of arguing this, only kidsmeal has posted any evidence other than what I have.

TL:DR version:

 

MAT - "We never had more than a handful of CN at any bane."

Vandarr posts screenshot from the first bane after Holam's town, showing two walls still up, MAT as the target, and 11 CN toons within bow range of him.

MAT - "Vandarr is a liar and needs to post actual video evidence"

 

Quick vid

 

This is the first bane after Holam's town.

 

 

Toons who weren't MAT who can be easily seen in the above vid:

rochester wm thewarrior wm nicey wm lani wm lisa sdr diddler wm dreamlizard wm nos wm murray wm isabella wm dobu wm dank wm tomford wm ryan wm tiapi validation zgoose validation zkeely validation tawny validation crotchcandy validation galbatorix validation xstylesx validation prodigy wm catharsia wm sitica wm bardiel wm wooh wm psyxx wm zsly validation zben validation znips validation billyy validation mrcrabs wm vitality wm panzer wm ders wm ganja validation xlightupx moco? oiio nzsp tekken nzsp uncleyk nzsp wowo nzsp xTx absolutelove nzsp sign nzsp maosr nzsp quiandodo nzsp whiteice nzsp nidage nzsp ABQQ nzsp tallman wm sears wm xauska validation moothat wm

 

 

 

Happy now? Please note that this is just after the big fight when the wall fell. CR was wiped, and y'all were summoning back your dead. It's the same vid section that I took the screenshot from, and doesn't show all of your folks (there were several scattered about the field doing random grave looting and what-not) but the free fraps I DL'ed for this only does short segments.

Edited by vandarr

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Oi! this #'s game again from those banes :rolleyes:

 

Just to note I remember us testing TP + stealth to just right off the grid and we never got to do that -_-

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Oi! this #'s game again from those banes :rolleyes:

 

Just to note I remember us testing TP + stealth to just right off the grid and we never got to do that -_-

That would have been sooooo much fun.


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Right I was so ready for us to do that and we had it down to the T also! Figured we would have put a dent in folks also

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Couple of quick comments:

  • Regarding wall of text #1 - Your response was directed at TS because that was YOU and YOUR ALLIES accepted practice at the time, not mine. Feel free to find and link any time I have said that. Once again, I'll state that I have never posted such as truth - and I don't even recall doing so as sarcasm. It's easy to have perfect memory when you tell the truth.

 

Your repeated insistence of this is utterly baffling, and it's quite clear that you're not in any position to speak as to the reading comprehension abilities of anyone else. My PM quite clearly addresses your practice of referring to numbers in your own voice comm server. This is why the opening sentence reads: "Even if you're being 100% honest, you're taking an SS of the TS at one point during the bane and that time could coincidentally be your low water mark in terms of server population during the engagement." Notice how that is a sentence directed to you and that discusses your practice. I'm not referring to anyone's practice of taking voice comm server screenshots except your own. This was done because you engaged in the habit of comparing the numbers of players in CR's TS, followed by posting a screenshot of such, with the number of characters fielded by your opposition. Again, it is completely baffling that you would continue to deny this practice after you pasted the private message I had sent to you about it.

 

As for that video, yes, I already addressed it; you demonstrated that we brought a group of NZSP to one of these banes. That doesn't mean we did so at other banes, nor does it mean that your exaggerations about NZSP numbers at any other banes are any more or less valid.

 

Re: Holam's town, yes, I know you agreed that you significantly outnumbered us. I congratulate you on your ability to assume a position of a modest amount of honesty on this particular bane. To state that we brought 26 to 28 characters, however, is a gross exaggeration. That's not even close to what we had, and presumably the reason behind citing such a count is to make it seem as if WM was not completely zerged in the defense of Holam's town, which they were, and by a force doubling the numbers of their own.

 

One last time, let's reiterate that you've posted evidence for one bane, and one bane only, indicating that we brought a force of a group of NZSP. I've already posted two videos that show we didn't bring hardly any NZSP to our banes. I've already stated that, judging from the evidence at hand, we can conclude that WM brought a relatively small number of NZSP (the most being a group) to some of the earlier banes, with little to no NZSP coming to the latter banes. During the latter banes, you also received the benefit of assistance from a sizable ally. I am trying to state an objective position of what actually transpired according to the evidence that exists, while you continue in your attempt to repeat your face-saving propaganda about WM supposedly bringing a zerg of CN to defeat you, a position that is not verified by any of the evidence produced by either side.

 

Now I'm sure we'll see another post that includes a video, screenshot, and list of characters, all from one bane, but assembled in a format to give the false impression that this evidence holds a considerable amount of weight and speaks to the numbers fielded in the dozen or so other banes involved in this war. Let's continue to ignore the multiple videos posted which show that a CN zerg was not present or even necessary in banes against CR. Let's continue to pretend that CR wasn't a multi-national zerg of 4 groups that couldn't accomplish diddly squat in the SBEMU Aerynth phase without overwhelming their adversaries through the use of far superior numbers. Let's continue to pretend that WM allied with "CN," when in fact WM was assisted by a single group of NZSP at one bane, less than a group of NZSP at a couple others, and no NZSP at others.

 

You really have to give up the impartial "integrity" (that I allegedly slander) shtick, because there is nothing objective about any of your posts whatsoever. You continue to make the same self-serving claims about what transpired even after evidence has been provided that indicates otherwise. You focus on your proof that a group of NZSP came to one bane as if that somehow evinces that the same could be said for other banes when that is simply not the case. It's like veni, vidi, vinci all over again.

 

If it makes you any happier, I will restate my proposition so that it has an unimpeachable truth value. WM didn't bring more than a handful of NZSP to any banes except one apparently, but NZSP still didn't factor into the outcome of the vast majority of the banes, including the ones depicted in the videos already posted.

 

Anyway, it's quite clear that you don't have any additional evidence to provide, as you've merely reposted the same evidence from the same bane repeatedly, as if doing so somehow proves your point. It doesn't. Evidence about the composition of forces in one bane speaks to the composition of forces in that particular bane - not to the composition of forces in other banes, or to the composition of forces in the war in general.

Edited by managainsttime

4H4LmCE.gif

Scourge of the Shadowbane community, Public Enemy No. 1 to the SBEMU Forum Moderators, and member of the "Suppressed Person" faction on the Ubiforums. The man responsible for hooking up Ceska and CheckYoTrack. Also a 21-time World Heavyweight Champion of Shadowbane.

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ugh, can crowfall have an official numbers count? That would reduce the political forums' post count by 75%.

Facts don't matter. People will just spin and deny and outright lie anyway. That's why it's called politics.

Isn't this supposed to be about who's broken lame Shadowbane crap emulator is worse?


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