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cyjax

Sbemu - How Does It Stack Up Against Magicbane?

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Same forums, posted 6 days earlier.

http://shadowbaneemulator.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=388&t=13132&p=188729&hilit=toons+in+the+field#p188729

 

My exact words: "Mixing toons and players in your counts is like counting apples and oranges to determine the number of grapefruit you have."

 

Also 6 days earlier:

http://shadowbaneemulator.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=388&t=13132&p=188702&hilit=toons+in+the+field#p188702

My exact words: "
I'm the guy who always says the opposite." (Effeckted stated the same argument MaT is making here).

"Until I can PK you in vent, I don't care how many you have over there. Your nation" (Validation & WM) "are the 'we had 75 toons but only 3 people in vent' advocates"

 

Need me to go on? Get good or get got, right?

Edited by vandarr

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Four posts up, the very post I quoted. You mentioned your TS numbers, so I responded with ours. It was in the interest of fairness, not because I believe it to be a better numeric indicator of troop strength.

 

Apples to apples and all that jazz.

 

Are you kidding? The post you quoted referred to estimated player numbers between CR and WM during an admin-held PvP event. The point was to demonstrate that at that point WM could field close to comparable numbers with CR, although still less, and that since then WM had lost an active sub-guild while CR had gained more. You then replied with CR TS numbers from our most recent banes in September. They wouldn't have served any evidentiary purpose for the sake of comparison with WM numbers then or even months prior, although I suppose that posting those numbers for that purpose is remotely feasible. I failed to see how they could fulfill that purpose, and instead found it curious that you posted these voice comm population numbers after going on and on about the character numbers fielded by your opposition without ever posting the voice comm server numbers of your opposition at a roughly contemporaneous point in time (or, conversely, an inclusive list of characters of the force CR brought to the same bane). You claimed that you were supposedly screenshotting WM's "TS" regularly, although not once offered to post evidence of the same.

 

Again, the point of my statement in that PM was to indicate that 'apples must be compared with apples,' but also that 'contemporaneous apples must be compared with contemporaneous apples.' Comparing apples and oranges serves no purpose, and comparing several month old apples to contemporaneous apples (which you now claim was your intent) likewise serves no valid purpose.

 

Same forums, posted 6 days earlier.

http://shadowbaneemulator.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=388&t=13132&p=188729&hilit=toons+in+the+field#p188729

 

My exact words: "Mixing toons and players in your counts is like counting apples and oranges to determine the number of grapefruit you have."

 

Also 6 days earlier:

http://shadowbaneemulator.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=388&t=13132&p=188702&hilit=toons+in+the+field#p188702

My exact words: "

I'm the guy who always says the opposite." (Effeckted stated the same argument MaT is making here).

 

"Until I can PK you in vent, I don't care how many you have over there. Your nation" (Validation & WM) "are the 'we had 75 toons but only 3 people in vent' advocates"

 

Need me to go on? Get good or get got, right?

 

No one cares about any posts you made in another context (you once offered posts about your alleged technique from 2009 ubiforums, as if anyone cared). No one is going to read all of your posts in other threads to familiarize themselves with your alleged technique of force number comparisons, which you must presume as you apparently assume that I would even be remotely familiar with any of these posts. They are truly irrelevant to the relevant discussion that evolved between us within a single thread and a series of PMs about that thread. The fact that you have to routinely refer to all of these irrelevant posts to substantiate your flawed position reeks of desperation. Apparently you've grown accustomed to others just accepting as true all of your unsubstantiated assertions since they come from "ol' honest Vandarr," but I don't, and must call it like I see it.

 

So yes, feel free to continue to refer to an infinite amount of posts that you wrote in an entirely separate context, and I will continue to feel free to not read them and note their complete irrelevance to an entirely separate set of circumstances. If we were each operating according to that standard, I would refer to posts that I wrote a week earlier wherein I told the truth, or remembered something correctly, or correctly comprehended the post of another to contravene your claims that I am operating with poor memory, dishonestly, and lack of reading comprehension in this context. Doing so would be equally as absurd as what you are doing right now.

 

For all of your talk about logic, you are startlingly imprecise with these things.


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Scourge of the Shadowbane community, Public Enemy No. 1 to the SBEMU Forum Moderators, and member of the "Suppressed Person" faction on the Ubiforums. The man responsible for hooking up Ceska and CheckYoTrack. Also a 21-time World Heavyweight Champion of Shadowbane.

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You claimed that you were supposedly screenshotting WM's "TS" regularly, although not once offered to post evidence of the same.

Bolded for emphasis. Link it, or retract your statement.


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Are you kidding? The post you quoted referred to estimated player numbers between CR and WM during an admin-held PvP event. The point was to demonstrate that at that point WM could field close to comparable numbers with CR, although still less, and that since then WM had lost an active sub-guild while CR had gained more. You then replied with CR TS numbers from our most recent banes in September. They wouldn't have served any evidentiary purpose for the sake of comparison with WM numbers then or even months prior, although I suppose that posting those numbers for that purpose is remotely feasible. I failed to see how they could fulfill that purpose, and instead found it curious that you posted these voice comm population numbers after going on and on about the character numbers fielded by your opposition without ever posting the voice comm server numbers of your opposition at a roughly contemporaneous point in time (or, conversely, an inclusive list of characters of the force CR brought to the same bane). You claimed that you were supposedly screenshotting WM's "TS" regularly, although not once offered to post evidence of the same.

 

Again, the point of my statement in that PM was to indicate that 'apples must be compared with apples,' but also that 'contemporaneous apples must be compared with contemporaneous apples.' Comparing apples and oranges serves no purpose, and comparing several month old apples to contemporaneous apples (which you now claim was your intent) likewise serves no valid purpose.

 

 

No one cares about any posts you made in another context (you once offered posts about your alleged technique from 2009 ubiforums, as if anyone cared). No one is going to read all of your posts in other threads to familiarize themselves with your alleged technique of force number comparisons, which you must presume as you apparently assume that I would even be remotely familiar with any of these posts. They are truly irrelevant to the relevant discussion that evolved between us within a single thread and a series of PMs about that thread. The fact that you have to routinely refer to all of these irrelevant posts to substantiate your flawed position reeks of desperation. Apparently you've grown accustomed to others just accepting as true all of your unsubstantiated assertions since they come from "ol' honest Vandarr," but I don't, and must call it like I see it.

 

So yes, feel free to continue to refer to an infinite amount of posts that you wrote in an entirely separate context, and I will continue to feel free to not read them and note their complete irrelevance to an entirely separate set of circumstances. If we were each operating according to that standard, I would refer to posts that I wrote a week earlier wherein I told the truth, or remembered something correctly, or correctly comprehended the post of another to contravene your claims that I am operating with poor memory, dishonestly, and lack of reading comprehension in this context. Doing so would be equally as absurd as what you are doing right now.

 

For all of your talk about logic, you are startlingly imprecise with these things.

I have a few more minutes, so in response to the other portions of the wall 'o text from managainsttruth.

 

  • The other posts I linked wherein I delivered the same message regarding toons as the most relevant statistic in counting numbers are provided for supporting evidence of a clear and consistent message, in direct opposition to the message you continue to claim I delivered. It's basic debate 101.
  • I'm aware that the TS numbers I posted specifically in response to a post on your voice comm numbers were from approximately three weeks after the numbers you claimed at the pvp event. I was forthcoming with them in an attempt to provide you with clarity as to exactly what we had - the idea being that a logical discourse could then ensue, with the proverbial cards being on the table.
  • For emphasis, I've never had access to your voice comm servers, nor do I ever remember claiming such access. For my take on spying on other people's voice comms, spies are for losers. http://shadowbaneemulator.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=326&t=18069&p=264038&hilit=vent#p264038
Edited by vandarr

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Everyone has access to our voice comm servers.


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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I'm a pleasant person to talk to thank you very much.


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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Whoops, you didn't say you screenshotted WM's voice comm server. I thought that you had said you were screenshotting "your TS regularly" in one of the posts addressed to me. My mistake on that one. That is really besides the point, though - you provided an alleged accounting of CR's voice comm server numbers for a series of banes without possessing the same for CR's opposition for any of these banes, or if you did possess such, these were never posted. Accordingly, the point raised by the PM I sent you which apparently catalyzed this entire side of our discussion still stands: voice comm server numbers are more or less useless for the sake of comparing force numbers unless the same can be attained for the opposite force. When one has consistently been referring to character numbers (distinct from active player numbers), such numbers possess even less probative value, and their inclusion in such a discussion would most likely only serve to mislead the less attentive reader.

 

As anyone can see from the original thread (just made available within the past day or so), nearly all of the substantive points raised in this thread - including numerical comparisons and even the issue of whether or not CR opportunistically baned Holam's tree (then under WM) to ride the coat-tails of the series of banes contemporaneously dropped by Polanie/Retribution and CN - have already been argued at length by all concerned parties in the original thread. We have comically gone in around in circles. I do not want to rehash some of these issues yet again, and am now mostly satisfied that if anyone previously thought that my honesty was successfully impugned or that I attempted to engage in some sort of willful misrepresentation of what transpired, they can read both threads to see that such is simply not the case.

 

Since we have engaged in this discussion for the second time, if not the third or fourth, I would like to now assume that all evidence about this particular war has been made available.

 

The main bone of contention seems to be the qualitative and quantitative impact of NZSP's contribution to this war. One can see that the consistent position taken by myself and even other WM/Validation posters was that NZSP's contribution to this war effort was ultimately minimally significant. The consistent position taken by Vandarr as well as other CR posters has consistently been that "CN" (but really just Group 1 or NZSP) provided an invaluable contribution, or even that WM+Validation would not have achieved anything without NZSP's contribution.

 

There exists a middle-of-the-road assessment of the available evidence that may arguably ring closer to the truth than the highly partisan and slightly biased positions adopted by both parties respectively. Vandarr has consistently provided evidence that, in the earliest banes at least, NZSP made a sizable contribution (as high as "a group" or 11 characters in one case). On the other hand, I have consistently provided evidence that WM and Validation didn't really need any contribution from NZSP to win an offensive bane against CR and Retribution, at least later in the war. I also distinctly recall particular offensive banes where WM + Validation won against CR or CR+Retribution with only a de minimis contribution from NZSP / Group 1. I truly even recall one (I can't say which tree it was on) where, after victory was more than assured, HYDETADE had summoned in a couple of NZSP characters just to be a tool, angering several WM players in the process (I can speak for the feelings of peekachew and myself, I'm not sure about others). Perhaps folks will now understand why I refer to this buffoon as HYDETADE, a/k/a the lord of newbienudes. Now, everyone is free to disregard that statement as I admittedly don't have screenshots of our character numbers or voice comm server numbers at that particular time, but perhaps the anecdote will serve to explain why I have consistently maintained that NZSP's meager contribution was utterly unnecessary, at least in some cases.

 

Now, an assessment of the extant evidence in light of the helpful timeline provided by Vandarr in this post will perhaps yield to the objective observer the middle-of-the-road assessment alluded to previously. I don't provide such an analysis solely for the sake of advocacy, as anyone can now assess all of the available evidence if they so desire and draw their own conclusions, but providing such an assessment does admittedly serve the convenient purpose of making my own initial position more factually precise. It also reconciles both of our positions to some degree, so hopefully any additional "ur a liarrrrr" accusations will be viewed as unnecessary by all concerned.

 

The position taken by CR and Vandarr is at least half-true. After looking at the timeline and recalling what I do, it is apparent that NZSP's contribution to the Wintershield bane was more than likely decisive. I have affirmatively asserted previously that, before WM adjusted its own spec groups, CR's spec was initially highly difficult for WM to combat successfully when CR's forces were under the protection of those infamous ATR reduction spires. Recalling that, I'm more than willing to concede that NZSP's contribution at the Wintershield bane was probably decisive, seeing as how it took place before WM fully implemented their spec group composition adjustments. I have no problem whatsoever with acknowledging that, for the WM-led forces to succeed at this early phase in the war against CR's spec groups when utilizing the ATR cut spire, the WM-led forces required a certain degree of numerical superiority.

 

As I've said previously, though, the WM-led forces evidently did not require a significant superiority in numbers or a sizable contribution from NZSP after adjusting their spec group composition (WM dropped a lot of coughing gas and blinds while utilizing many more blind-immune characters) or when the ATR cut spires were not a factor in the particular defense. The opposite (re: numerical superiority), in fact, seems to be the case according to the timeline. This is because CR defended some of their cities successfully when they placed their bane times during the European prime-time, which was when they could potentially benefit from a superiority in numbers by having full participation from their European allies (Retribution) and European sub-guild(s) (SD, not sure if other subs were Euro) while the WM-led forces could expect little to no contribution from NZSP even if such were available. Again, this is borne out by the timeline. CR could not benefit from an ATR cut spire in defense of Holam's old town, and lost it. Likewise, CR could not advantage themselves of an ATR cut spire during the defense of Retribution's towns, even though their side could benefit from a superiority in numbers due to the European prime-time bane times, and their alliance accordingly lost two Retribution cities within the same 3 day or so period.

 

After all was said and done, during the particular war the WM-led forces dropped 17 banes on CR and Retribution (according to the timeline and assuming the same is true and accurate). Of those 17 banes, the WM-led forces emerged victorious in 9. Note that I delineate the start of the war at CR's bane on Holam's town, as that was the first where Validation appeared at the very end (though not affecting the outcome of the bane). That yields an offensive bane win rate of around 53%. We can safely conclude that NZSP made a decisive contribution to the bane on Wintershield. I believe that you posted previously that NZSP brought 10 characters (or 11? I am going by the list written in one of your links) characters to the bane on Widowmakers, and I suppose that it is debatable whether or not those characters were decisive for the bane's outcome.

 

At a certain point, however, and I admittedly cannot determine this exact point with absolute precision, CR & co. started to use afternoon bane times to benefit from their sizable contingent of Europeans (at one point or another, 100% of SBEMU's European guilds fought within or alongside CR) and to negate the possibility of a substantial contribution from NZSP. This much is attested by Vandarr himself in the timeline post. Vandarr does not identify that particular point of time with precision, but based on the surrounding circumstances I would venture a guess that the afternoon bane time strategy started with CR's first successful defense of SD's (Euro sub-guild) city. If that much is true, then after this strategy was instituted, the WM-led forces seized 5 different cities from CR and Retribution, or 4 if we do not consider a defection as an outright seizure (though I would dare say that it was more or less a fait accompli at this stage, though we cannot know with certainty).

 

Please note that my offer of a middle-of-the-road assessment is not fully conclusive as Vandarr presumably has access to more direct evidence than I do, and he may not have posted or made publicly available the totality of this evidence. I expect that Vandarr can fill in more blanks so that we both can reach a more precise determination, even if we must agree to disagree with our respective conclusions at the end. Vandarr can also make any and all mathematical or statistical conclusions more precise if he so wishes. The overall intention here is to narrow the relevant points of contention so that the discussion is not further derailed by ad hominem attacks, side arguments concerning the precision of certain details that do not weigh in any meaningful sense on the true points of contention, and contributions by third parties who know absolutely nothing about the relevant issues and who only post because I am apparently a highly attractive figure on these forums. Moving on, I cannot speak with certainty as to precisely how many characters NZSP brought to all 4 (or 5, or not) of the offensive bane victories after both sides had adjusted their respective strategies and could account for all of their allies, but I can speak with certainty and precision about 2 of those banes as I have already posted those bane videos and all interested can clearly see for themselves the lack of NZSP presence.

 

Either way, the initially extreme generalizations offered by both camps, e.g., my own that NZSP did not make a significant contribution to any bane or the CR position that "CN" practically won the war for WM or that "CN" effectively "carried" the WM-led forces to success with their insane numbers, have both been demonstrated to be overly broad generalizations which are not fully accurate whether originally purported to apply to all banes in the war or even an overwhelming majority of them. Interested parties can conclude that we were both respectively wrong, that we were both respectively right, or that we were both right and wrong in regard to particular banes and/or any general characterizations made about the entire war itself. In sum, WM relied on NZSP's contribution to win some offensive banes, but not nearly all. WM also emerged victorious in some banes with their appropriate spec group composition changes and little to no contribution from NZSP, but not nearly all.

Edited by managainsttime

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Scourge of the Shadowbane community, Public Enemy No. 1 to the SBEMU Forum Moderators, and member of the "Suppressed Person" faction on the Ubiforums. The man responsible for hooking up Ceska and CheckYoTrack. Also a 21-time World Heavyweight Champion of Shadowbane.

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Whoops, you didn't say you screenshotted WM's voice comm server. I thought that you had said you were screenshotting "your TS regularly" in one of the posts addressed to me. My mistake on that one. That is really besides the point, though - you provided an alleged accounting of CR's voice comm server numbers for a series of banes without possessing the same for CR's opposition for any of these banes, or if you did possess such, these were never posted. Accordingly, the point raised by the PM I sent you which apparently catalyzed this entire side of our discussion still stands: voice comm server numbers are more or less useless for the sake of comparing force numbers unless the same can be attained for the opposite force. When one has consistently been referring to character numbers (distinct from active player numbers), such numbers possess even less probative value, and their inclusion in such a discussion would most likely only serve to mislead the less attentive reader.

We're in agreement, then? Toons in the field should be the consistent unit of measure, correct? In conjunction with that, please also note my stance on estimates, here:

http://shadowbaneemulator.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=388&t=13132&p=188738&hilit=conclusively#p188738


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Couple of other quick points:

  • The presence of CN was significant to your offensive capabilities early on, but absolutely was significantly lessened with the time change to the afternoon banes. I think we're in agreement on this now?
  • The one exception to this was the bane where NZSP and y'all took SD's town, which was an 8 PM EDT start time if memory serves (I'd need to look it up to confirm).
  • They also significantly impacted our ability to take the offensive, as evidenced by their numbers at the defensive bane I screenshot, above.
  • SD on that server had only a single Euro member to my knowledge. They were primarily American. Not that it matters much, but I do like to be accurate.

 

To be VERY clear, I still think CR should have won the first few defensive banes. With defender's advantage, we should have been able to play more effectively than we did. To be frank, I believe we were outplayed in both of those losses, regardless of the numbers disparity, which based on toons in the field I considered to be close enough to even when accounting for the defender's advantage. As the CN presence grew, we went into panic mode and cost ourselves both trees.


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Societas Daemonica has always been a European guild, at least on every server where I encountered them. Who was the sizable European CR sub? Was it Nordic Chapter? Too much time has passed for me to be able to recall the names of all of CR's sub-guilds at that time. Nearly two years ago now, and it definitely does not 'seem like it was only yesterday,' at least for me. Hell, since then I had my own bane war against WM, and I swear that they zerged me. :D I guess that, as the saying goes, to be the man...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXhRFnUn72E

 

 

Edited by managainsttime

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Scourge of the Shadowbane community, Public Enemy No. 1 to the SBEMU Forum Moderators, and member of the "Suppressed Person" faction on the Ubiforums. The man responsible for hooking up Ceska and CheckYoTrack. Also a 21-time World Heavyweight Champion of Shadowbane.

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I don't think CR had a Euro sub-guild. They just started showing up at the earlier banes from what I can gather.

 

I am pretty sure Phylor made a formal alliance with them at some point, but as I don't have access to the CR leadership forums where this was discussed, I cannot definitely state the date on that, nor whether the offer occurred before or after they began showing up to our early banes. It may be that the banes went early because an agreement of alliance had been reached - I simply don't know, and have no desire to speculate.

 

The SD folks were really Angels of Anarchy, which was a primarily NA SD sub back on live. While they were flying the bat tag during the war we're discussing, I believe their guild name was AoA, and the town was named as an homage to their roots with SD. Honestly, I didn't pay it much mind, as I knew who they were. :)


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For reference, off the top of my head, CR's subguilds were:

 

Angels of Anarchy

The Hate Crew

The Black Watch

Winterblades

 

I may be forgetting someone, but I am not sure. As Dubs said in a post above, we had 7?ish OCC members, and we were just playing under CR tags with no broken out subguild to speak of.


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Whoops, you didn't say you screenshotted WM's voice comm server. I thought that you had said you were screenshotting "your TS regularly" in one of the posts addressed to me. My mistake on that one. That is really besides the point, though - you provided an alleged accounting of CR's voice comm server numbers for a series of banes without possessing the same for CR's opposition for any of these banes, or if you did possess such, these were never posted. Accordingly, the point raised by the PM I sent you which apparently catalyzed this entire side of our discussion still stands: voice comm server numbers are more or less useless for the sake of comparing force numbers unless the same can be attained for the opposite force. When one has consistently been referring to character numbers (distinct from active player numbers), such numbers possess even less probative value, and their inclusion in such a discussion would most likely only serve to mislead the less attentive reader.

 

As anyone can see from the original thread (just made available within the past day or so), nearly all of the substantive points raised in this thread - including numerical comparisons and even the issue of whether or not CR opportunistically baned Holam's tree (then under WM) to ride the coat-tails of the series of banes contemporaneously dropped by Polanie/Retribution and CN - have already been argued at length by all concerned parties in the original thread. We have comically gone in around in circles. I do not want to rehash some of these issues yet again, and am now mostly satisfied that if anyone previously thought that my honesty was successfully impugned or that I attempted to engage in some sort of willful misrepresentation of what transpired, they can read both threads to see that such is simply not the case.

 

Since we have engaged in this discussion for the second time, if not the third or fourth, I would like to now assume that all evidence about this particular war has been made available.

 

The main bone of contention seems to be the qualitative and quantitative impact of NZSP's contribution to this war. One can see that the consistent position taken by myself and even other WM/Validation posters was that NZSP's contribution to this war effort was ultimately minimally significant. The consistent position taken by Vandarr as well as other CR posters has consistently been that "CN" (but really just Group 1 or NZSP) provided an invaluable contribution, or even that WM+Validation would not have achieved anything without NZSP's contribution.

 

There exists a middle-of-the-road assessment of the available evidence that may arguably ring closer to the truth than the highly partisan and slightly biased positions adopted by both parties respectively. Vandarr has consistently provided evidence that, in the earliest banes at least, NZSP made a sizable contribution (as high as "a group" or 11 characters in one case). On the other hand, I have consistently provided evidence that WM and Validation didn't really need any contribution from NZSP to win an offensive bane against CR and Retribution, at least later in the war. I also distinctly recall particular offensive banes where WM + Validation won against CR or CR+Retribution with only a de minimis contribution from NZSP / Group 1. I truly even recall one (I can't say which tree it was on) where, after victory was more than assured, HYDETADE had summoned in a couple of NZSP characters just to be a tool, angering several WM players in the process (I can speak for the feelings of peekachew and myself, I'm not sure about others). Perhaps folks will now understand why I refer to this buffoon as HYDETADE, a/k/a the lord of newbienudes. Now, everyone is free to disregard that statement as I admittedly don't have screenshots of our character numbers or voice comm server numbers at that particular time, but perhaps the anecdote will serve to explain why I have consistently maintained that NZSP's meager contribution was utterly unnecessary, at least in some cases.

 

Now, an assessment of the extant evidence in light of the helpful timeline provided by Vandarr in this post will perhaps yield to the objective observer the middle-of-the-road assessment alluded to previously. I don't provide such an analysis solely for the sake of advocacy, as anyone can now assess all of the available evidence if they so desire and draw their own conclusions, but providing such an assessment does admittedly serve the convenient purpose of making my own initial position more factually precise. It also reconciles both of our positions to some degree, so hopefully any additional "ur a liarrrrr" accusations will be viewed as unnecessary by all concerned.

 

The position taken by CR and Vandarr is at least half-true. After looking at the timeline and recalling what I do, it is apparent that NZSP's contribution to the Wintershield bane was more than likely decisive. I have affirmatively asserted previously that, before WM adjusted its own spec groups, CR's spec was initially highly difficult for WM to combat successfully when CR's forces were under the protection of those infamous ATR reduction spires. Recalling that, I'm more than willing to concede that NZSP's contribution at the Wintershield bane was probably decisive, seeing as how it took place before WM fully implemented their spec group composition adjustments. I have no problem whatsoever with acknowledging that, for the WM-led forces to succeed at this early phase in the war against CR's spec groups when utilizing the ATR cut spire, the WM-led forces required a certain degree of numerical superiority.

 

As I've said previously, though, the WM-led forces evidently did not require a significant superiority in numbers or a sizable contribution from NZSP after adjusting their spec group composition (WM dropped a lot of coughing gas and blinds while utilizing many more blind-immune characters) or when the ATR cut spires were not a factor in the particular defense. The opposite (re: numerical superiority), in fact, seems to be the case according to the timeline. This is because CR defended some of their cities successfully when they placed their bane times during the European prime-time, which was when they could potentially benefit from a superiority in numbers by having full participation from their European allies (Retribution) and European sub-guild(s) (SD, not sure if other subs were Euro) while the WM-led forces could expect little to no contribution from NZSP even if such were available. Again, this is borne out by the timeline. CR could not benefit from an ATR cut spire in defense of Holam's old town, and lost it. Likewise, CR could not advantage themselves of an ATR cut spire during the defense of Retribution's towns, even though their side could benefit from a superiority in numbers due to the European prime-time bane times, and their alliance accordingly lost two Retribution cities within the same 3 day or so period.

 

After all was said and done, during the particular war the WM-led forces dropped 17 banes on CR and Retribution (according to the timeline and assuming the same is true and accurate). Of those 17 banes, the WM-led forces emerged victorious in 9. Note that I delineate the start of the war at CR's bane on Holam's town, as that was the first where Validation appeared at the very end (though not affecting the outcome of the bane). That yields an offensive bane win rate of around 53%. We can safely conclude that NZSP made a decisive contribution to the bane on Wintershield. I believe that you posted previously that NZSP brought 10 characters (or 11? I am going by the list written in one of your links) characters to the bane on Widowmakers, and I suppose that it is debatable whether or not those characters were decisive for the bane's outcome.

 

At a certain point, however, and I admittedly cannot determine this exact point with absolute precision, CR & co. started to use afternoon bane times to benefit from their sizable contingent of Europeans (at one point or another, 100% of SBEMU's European guilds fought within or alongside CR) and to negate the possibility of a substantial contribution from NZSP. This much is attested by Vandarr himself in the timeline post. Vandarr does not identify that particular point of time with precision, but based on the surrounding circumstances I would venture a guess that the afternoon bane time strategy started with CR's first successful defense of SD's (Euro sub-guild) city. If that much is true, then after this strategy was instituted, the WM-led forces seized 5 different cities from CR and Retribution, or 4 if we do not consider a defection as an outright seizure (though I would dare say that it was more or less a fait accompli at this stage, though we cannot know with certainty).

 

Please note that my offer of a middle-of-the-road assessment is not fully conclusive as Vandarr presumably has access to more direct evidence than I do, and he may not have posted or made publicly available the totality of this evidence. I expect that Vandarr can fill in more blanks so that we both can reach a more precise determination, even if we must agree to disagree with our respective conclusions at the end. Vandarr can also make any and all mathematical or statistical conclusions more precise if he so wishes. The overall intention here is to narrow the relevant points of contention so that the discussion is not further derailed by ad hominem attacks, side arguments concerning the precision of certain details that do not weigh in any meaningful sense on the true points of contention, and contributions by third parties who know absolutely nothing about the relevant issues and who only post because I am apparently a highly attractive figure on these forums. Moving on, I cannot speak with certainty as to precisely how many characters NZSP brought to all 4 (or 5, or not) of the offensive bane victories after both sides had adjusted their respective strategies and could account for all of their allies, but I can speak with certainty and precision about 2 of those banes as I have already posted those bane videos and all interested can clearly see for themselves the lack of NZSP presence.

 

Either way, the initially extreme generalizations offered by both camps, e.g., my own that NZSP did not make a significant contribution to any bane or the CR position that "CN" practically won the war for WM or that "CN" effectively "carried" the WM-led forces to success with their insane numbers, have both been demonstrated to be overly broad generalizations which are not fully accurate whether originally purported to apply to all banes in the war or even an overwhelming majority of them. Interested parties can conclude that we were both respectively wrong, that we were both respectively right, or that we were both right and wrong in regard to particular banes and/or any general characterizations made about the entire war itself. In sum, WM relied on NZSP's contribution to win some offensive banes, but not nearly all. WM also emerged victorious in some banes with their appropriate spec group composition changes and little to no contribution from NZSP, but not nearly all.

 

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I find the talk of SD in Sbemu laughable .

 

SD got invites ... they were all used by DOA (AOA) , probably the worst bunch of SB players you can imagine . Seriously myself , slack , leet and lala once trashed a 2.5 grp DOA bane force with 3 nephlocks and a fury .

 

Keep up the big talk though bieng able to beat DOA is a real achievment .

 

 

Whats next ? . you once beat Villa in a duel ? GG mfer GG .

Edited by maarvy

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I don't disagree with maarvys characterization.


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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