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Deadman

Diplomacy - Systems And Scheming

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Hi all,

So I'll be the first to say that even if there is no diplomacy system in place, I know that diplomacy will take place in this world. Some players just enjoy scheming and plotting with the other powers in the world too much to avoid it even if there is no set system in place. But something about Crowfall's open PVP/survival world mentality makes me feel as if there should be something a bit more substantial in place - an in game supported diplomacy system.

I took a look at the City-Siege breakdown yesterday and the words "Mercenary Group" kept clicking with me as well as the idea of a player guild owning a city. Everything was balanced so even if a guild "didn't own a city" they could still compete for victory points. The question that kept popping up in my head is "Well where do they live?"

Everyone needs a place to kick up their boots. And if they are a mercenary group, how will they really ply their trade? I'd like to see a diplomacy system where guilds can flag allies for all their guildmates, friends can flag eachother (despite guilds) and that this can all be done on the fly to reflect shifting alliances and politics within the system. This even could tie into the fealty system (where a guild can submit to another guild for chance at greater rewards) by forcing this flag on the kneeling guild until the end of the Campaign.

In reality it is just a designation - a quick way to identify allies. In Archeage there was not remotely this kind of system in place but I still found myself in alliances with Red guilds using middle-man alts of red and green guilds to transition items, odd methods of communication (due to in-game language barriers). In Warhammer Age of Reckoning, players of the same faction could never highlight who their allies were amongst the zerg who may know of the alternate plan to flank to one side to surprise the enemy.

 

TL;DR:
Guild can flag allies, you can flag friends all for easy spotting.

What else would you guys like to see to act as support tools for diplomacy?
 


Deadman; FIGHTER OF THE LIFE MAN, ooooAAAAH AHHHHH! CHAMPION OF THE... Oh. That's not how it goes...

http://www.twitch.tv/alt_delete - Alt Delete Gaming: Lose Ctrl.

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Guilds will start seeking out other like minded for alliances. Thankfully there are multiple rulesets to allow some dynamic teams.


Entropy is not what it used to be.  I am a servant of The Nothing.. The Hunger!

 

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I fully support basic mechanics that helps the user, such as being able to label or color code others.

 

Beyond that, things that put artificial restrictions on players, have to be implemented with a lot of thought.

 

Hoping for some random thoughts on this so we can all have a heated forum "discussion"


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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I fully support basic mechanics that helps the user, such as being able to label or color code others.

Beyond that, things that put artificial restrictions on players, have to be implemented with a lot of thought.

Hoping for some random thoughts on this so we can all have a heated forum "discussion"

Since archtypes can be on any team, they are going to need friendly/neutral/enemy indicators. i too would like to at least like to guilds be able to identify their alliances.


Entropy is not what it used to be.  I am a servant of The Nothing.. The Hunger!

 

https://38.media.tumblr.com/c8b3da04c46297fe112a98ab12ad8e09/tumblr_n5l2imj4NF1qzm5g7o1_500.gif

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Eve has the ability to set Standings on players, Corporations, and Alliances. Corp/Alliance leaders can set organization-wide Standings as well (e.g. the relation between Corp A and Corp B is Terrible, and all members see this Standing in game).

 

The values are

-10 (Terrible, Red)

-5 (Bad, Orange)

0 (Neutral, Gray)

+5 (Good, light blue)

+10 (Great, Deep blue)

 

This not only allows players to quickly understand broad diplomatic relationships with other entities, but also leads to various aggression policies. Not Blue, Shoot It (NBSI); Not Red, Don't Shoot (NRDS).

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I'd prefer some sort of tool to "formalize" alliances between guilds.

The EVE example is a good one, as I think the standings system is one of the better ones.

 

Alliances could depend on the ruleset. In faction vs faction campaigns they could be fluid and limitless, mostly used to help guild organize themselves better "on the fly". In every-guild-for-itself campaigns they could be binding for the whole campaign, with mechanics that make them meaningful.

Of course even if there are methods to make formal alliances there will always be backroom alliances "lets not hit each other until the other guys who are currently first are down on our score". That is where the backstabbing lives.

 

 

Also, to suggest a color coding:

red = enemy player

yellow = friendly player (same faction)

dark blue = friendly player (allied guild or friend)

bright blue = guildmate

cyan = same party/group


Constant optimism will not solve your problems,


but it will annoy enough people to be worth the effort.

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I'm with Cirolle on this one.  The role of the game with respect to diplomacy is to inform the player, not restrict what they can do.

 

As soon as the game starts placing restrictions on what the character can do based on the existing diplomatic status, then if ACE wants true subterfuge and betrayal as in GoT to be possibilities then they have to build systems that allow crossing, double crossing, un-triple-crossing, triple-un-crossing, etc.

 

Considering that the tone set by the lore and universe structure is that the relationships between the gods is rocky and tumultuous, I'd like to see character affiliations be advisory even in the faction-based battles.

 

Win/lose by faction: yes.  Locked into your starting faction: yes.  Prevented from talking with, trading with, and dealing "peacefully" with characters from the other factions: no.

 

This will facilitate things like:

  • Buying off guards to look the other way or conveniently leave the side gate unlocked.
  • Smugglers skimming off resources from common storehouses and selling them covertly to opposing factions in order to feather their own nest.
  • Punishing those caught doing any of the above (see, there's a reason to have "friendly fire" enabled even in the faction-based campaigns).
  • Begging for your life and buying your way out of a no-win situation (more significant in campaigns with more limited looting rules, as you'll be able to offer more than they could loot from your corpse).
  • etc

Now this does make me think of one mechanic that might be missing: a way to meaningfully punish a known (or framed) traitor.  Being able to kill them is not enough because they'll just respawn.  Seizing their assets in the campaign is not enough because (if they're smart) they've already got their compensation stored someplace safe, assuming it was an in-campaign compensation to begin with[1].  Neither of those will limit their ability to spy and continue to sell information to the other side.

 

The only way I can think of to limit the ability of a spy is by forced incarceration that is unescapable (mostly).  This doesn't have to be a traditional jail cell, although it could be, as deep pits, wells, cisterns, and locked towers have served the same purpose.  This shouldn't be automatic, the "guilty" party should need to be apprehended first.

 

I'm also wondering at the possibility of extending this system to include the subdual and incarceration of hostile parties.  That might make people think more seriously before going on "suicide missions" into enemy territory.  Then rescue missions and prisoner exchanges could become things, too (great opportunities for betrayal during these, too).

 

Sure, it wouldn't be the most fun and engaging gameplay to be confined to the dungeon for the last month of a campaign, but depending on the pay some might be willing to do that.  Risk vs. Reward.  If that's what it takes to finally obtain that long-sought rare Discipline for your character... it might be worth it.

 

[1] Noting here that discipline runes would make excellent payment here, especially if they're intended for use on the character already in the campaign.  They can be applied to the character immediately and then can't be forcibly taken away by either death or stealth.


soli deo gloria

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Heh the above makes me think of a religious traitor that have been promised a reward in the afterlife.

Cept here the afterlife is very real.

 

How do you punish someone that knows they are getting rewarded no matter what?

Fanatics would just smile.

 

The jail thing made me think about how you lock someone up that can teleport?

If they are imortal, does it matter to them much?

 

Finally, I see being paid with a discipline as being taught a secret or rare technique as payment.

Not unheard of.


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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How do you punish someone that knows they are getting rewarded no matter what?

Fanatics would just smile.

 

That was the exact picture I had in mind.  :)


soli deo gloria

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It will be tricky. The EKs being so safe throws a big wrench in the hopes I had for how play to crush this game would be.

 

If safe EKs throw a big wrench in your plans for conquest then fear not; you'll more than likely be seeing play to crush, just from the receiving end. 

 

 

A lot.

Edited by buc denizen

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How do you punish someone that knows they are getting rewarded no matter what?

Fanatics would just smile.

 

The jail thing made me think about how you lock someone up that can teleport?

If they are imortal, does it matter to them much?

 

1) That's a bit of an issue faced in any MMO due to immortality. To be clear, even with permadeath, the player still lives and is able to reroll with the same knowledge, contacts, access to resources, etc. The spirit of the characters - the player - is in essence an immortal.

 

In the case of spies, any decent spy knows the character is done for once it's outed, so while there is a certain amount of 'death' to that character, there's also an exit plan in place... or should be. 

 

2) Another interesting hurdle. :) Locking up someone that can teleport can be solved by making non-teleport zones. It was a feature in UO that could be turned on/off for user-defined areas, although I think  it was only used in the GM jail area and Green Acres, a test zone. Not sure how hard that would be to implement in Crowfall. 

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I think the EVE system really takes into account how to "punish" a player. If someone sets a standing to you as negative, people can see that and they can question "why?" It is up to the player who asks why to trust a player with a negative standing.

I think EVE does a lot of things right. It lets corps and alliances set their own standings as well as giving  each individual player their own log of standings with whoever they have dealt with if they so choose. And the plus is that its a fairly simple system for anyone to use.

 

Its like a little optional customer survey after any transaction you feel like noting. I will say that EVE IS a lot more window heavy though - hence it being nice to use simple colors.


Deadman; FIGHTER OF THE LIFE MAN, ooooAAAAH AHHHHH! CHAMPION OF THE... Oh. That's not how it goes...

http://www.twitch.tv/alt_delete - Alt Delete Gaming: Lose Ctrl.

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My thoughts on the diplomacy thing, if anything to help manage the allies, enemies and neutral parties, have a tab somewhere so you can look at your guilds allies, and things. Nothing fancy, just functional. ^_^ And have a rank for diplomats and spies. But the latter part with diplomats and spies is obviously going to be done anyways. lol.

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Some way to mark definite friends and allies, with NO game systems in place to enforce it, is all that's needed.  A scale from -10 to 10 should be enough to allow for some subtleties - You hate their guts, but they can be trusted in certain circumstances, set em to -9 instead of -10 to indicate that.  You're bestest buddies, now, but you just know something's gonna go weird - set em to 9 instead of 10.

 

Have default colours for certain standings ranges, but give a liege a chance to add extra colours that everyone under them can see - Periwinkle blue are friends, but ALWAYS report where you see em, etc.  Probably want to let players set their own colours for the liege's settings too, in case of colourblindness or an intense hatred of the bright neon pink they set friendlies to.


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there is no system in place because you don't need a system for this to be done,a system would only limit us.

 

i don't have anything against something like a friendlist though,where you can categorize people and guilds.

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there is no system in place because you don't need a system for this to be done,a system would only limit us.

 

i don't have anything against something like a friendlist though,where you can categorize people and guilds.

I agree with kamp, having a system is like having a limit on what can be done if you leave it open then we the players can push it as far as we like.

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the only mechanics i'd like to see would be stuff along the lines of visually showing alliances.

 

guild a + b = allied tag.

 

one of the things i didn't like about sb, was that, from a GL standpoint, it was just a PITA to get the logistics in order.

 

- use an alt to create an alliance tag.

 

- get all all guild/sub guild leaders together in one place...(from both/all entities involved)

 

- all GL's break fealty from their current nations

 

- allied tagged gl invites each to the new nation.

 

- typically, since there was a limit on subs, 'left over' trees were put in a 'retirement home' nation/secondary alliance tag (same process).

 

would have been really nice to just be able to have a couple versions of 'ally' to choose from and just execute.

 

- Submit: the target guild/nation becomes a subordinate guild, and it's guild/subguild tags all fly under the higher guilds colors. /invite guild to sub: all transfers.

- Ally: /ally: guild - prompts you to create a ally 'tag', target guild/nation accepts ally, both nations fall into 'sub' status to the alliance tag. Ally leadership defaults to both guild's GL's, who can then promote additional leadership.

- Abandon:  undoes  submit/ally functions and reverts to previous structure. kind of like a prenup. anything you came with, you leave with, everything else stays.

- Dissolve: kind of like abandon, but you also takes into account any new assets, (or lost assets) that occurred during the merger. I'd kind of see it as a trade window, where both parties agree what they walk away with (whether that is more, or less than they came to the table with).

 

or something like that...

 

For actual game politics and diplomacy, that  is what these boards are for...please don't put mechanisms in game that can be better done outside of it.

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