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Makeshyft

Let's Talk Crowd-Control

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It also depends on what tells your opponent gives.  If the CC is only effective when it's set up by a certain series of abilities beforehand (or if there's otherwise a huge tell), then you probably deserve to lose if you either fail to calculate what is coming and save your big get-out-of-RIP-free button for when you need it, or if you can't prevent your opponent from setting up the massive chain.

 

Sorry, but CC chain combat is a product of MMOs with lazy combat systems.  Combat throughout history never required or used CC to the scale that many MMOs weave into their class abilities.  It's unnecessary.  I would rather be skilled at timing a dodge than hitting an ability that counters your ability.  That's not combat, that's countering in a non-combat way.

 

The only usefulness that CC provides, is for melee locking down ranged.  But, in CF, without that CC, your melee classes will need to .. omgwtf... run with a ranged partner.  Yes, I went there.... counter classes with other players, not CC/escape abilities.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Sorry, but CC chain combat is a product of MMOs with lazy combat systems.  Combat throughout history never required or used CC to the scale that many MMOs weave into their class abilities.  It's unnecessary.  I would rather be skilled at timing a dodge than hitting an ability that counters your ability.  That's not combat, that's countering in a non-combat way.

 

The only usefulness that CC provides, is for melee locking down ranged.  But, in CF, without that CC, your melee classes will need to .. omgwtf... run with a ranged partner.  Yes, I went there.... counter classes with other players, not CC/escape abilities.

 

Setting up a CC doesn't mean a chain of neverending CC, although I understand how you could come to the misunderstanding.  

 

For example, if the CC is only decisive when I set up an ability to buff my resource generation before hand and mostly avoid using any offensive abilities for six or seven seconds before I start the combo, then you have plenty of opportunities to either get the timing and use your dodge (which is a get out of jail free card, because it negates an ability) or interrupt the chain by forcing him to use one of those offensive abilities, then there's a certain balance there that can work pretty well.

 

Regardless of how many players or classes you're running, the aggregate strategy still works out the same, although the shot caller might need to consider more moving parts.  It's not an effective counter to just run other players, because everyone will run other players. If you have a particularly effective composition, then the chances I'm running a similar one are quite high.

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They could make it so that CC only comes from combos that you get through a very specific character progression tree. That way they can make players that have CC low damage, low health, but still valuable.


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I'd also be remiss to not point out that comparing combat in real life to combat in a video game is rather suspicious since combat in real life is something that is not intended to be fun.

Edited by zoel

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I'd also be remiss to not point out that comparing combat in real life to combat in a video game is rather suspicious since combat in real life is something that is not intended to be fun.

 

<cut detailed reply> So,  you're saying that CC mechanics are fun to you.  

 

I'm simply stating that the evolution of CC in MMOs has gone way out-of-hand to a point where it has absolutely nothing to do with "crowds" at all anymore.  It's a mechanic interwoven into our combat that in games like WS and AA, you have no choice but to restrict your combat bars to having at least 1 CC and 1 escape... especially in 1v1.. in fact, in AA... you would need multiple of each.  AA PvP boils down to who has the most CC and escape options... and timing of each.... with 1-3 actual DPS abilities.

 

Sorry, but that combat.. is far from fun to me.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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<cut detailed reply> So,  you're saying that CC mechanics are fun to you.  

 

I'm simply stating that the evolution of CC in MMOs has gone way out-of-hand to a point where it has absolutely nothing to do with "crowds" at all anymore.  It's a mechanic interwoven into our combat that in games like WS and AA, you have no choice but to restrict your combat bars to having at least 1 CC and 1 escape... especially in 1v1.. in fact, in AA... you would need multiple of each.  AA PvP boils down to who has the most CC and escape options... and timing of each.... with 1-3 actual DPS abilities.

 

Sorry, but that combat.. is far from fun to me.

Certain classes were almost entirely CC in AA (Agh! Too many acronyms DX). My class was pretty much, "Trap him, debuff him, trap him, buff myself, nuke, trap him if he' still alive, and heal myself, then shoot him with lighting to finish. Not fun. Especially since pvp is generally the same combos every time. If this game doesn't get away from combat like that, it will likely die after a few months.


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Wait, you guys want no CC at all? The epic concept of a battle to you is whoever has more DPS and whoever can get that into non-tanks first?

 

From what I see, Crowfall has divided the Archetypes into many roles, so maybe CC is the focus of Supports and maybe some on Specialists. Perhaps a taunt here and there on tanks.

 

Now Stunlocking is a problem when it's badly balanced. If I need to dedicate 4 players to stunlock 1, then in a 4v4 situation, the other 3 players will bash our heads in...

 

There are TONS of solutions to allow a fluid battle without either removing hard CC or making stunlock a priority:

- Long cooldowns

- Heavy mana usage

- Short durations

- Long cast times

- Channeling CCs

- CC'd until damaged

- Skill shots

- Expensive skill (Needs a lot of points to acquire the skill)

- Debuff purging (Self or other players)

- And more...

 

This is all about the balance of the game, which is the most difficult part of any game. Don't say you don't want something just because some other game had it wrong. The concept of hard CC isn't broken at all, it is a terrific combat maneauver that allows for a variety of different strategies. I'm hoping Crowfall has as many different status as it can manage, as long as they can balance the game properly.

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Although PvP can certainly exist without CC, I'm fine if there is a specific Archtype and Profession combination that is CC support.  They would require to group with other DPS.  I'm just not fine with every player having CC and escapes and self-heals... etc.... those shouldn't be required.  A melee DPS should have the option of performing well with a full DPS loadout.

 

In a PvP sandbox, CC should be done more on a macro level than a micro level.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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I think MMORPG players have grown too accustomed to the whole stun and escape dance to where some MMOs (e.g. AA and WS) had more of that going on than actual combat.

 

I don't know which 'WS' you're playing but it's obviously not the one I'm thinking of.

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<cut detailed reply> So,  you're saying that CC mechanics are fun to you.  

 

I'm simply stating that the evolution of CC in MMOs has gone way out-of-hand to a point where it has absolutely nothing to do with "crowds" at all anymore.  It's a mechanic interwoven into our combat that in games like WS and AA, you have no choice but to restrict your combat bars to having at least 1 CC and 1 escape... especially in 1v1.. in fact, in AA... you would need multiple of each.  AA PvP boils down to who has the most CC and escape options... and timing of each.... with 1-3 actual DPS abilities.

 

Sorry, but that combat.. is far from fun to me.

 

CC is in essence something that forces someone to respond to an action their opponent does in a very tangible way.  Without those sorts of interactions people are just playing solitare against health bars.  I don't really see viable alternatives to CC that still have player interaction.  

 

With no CC, speed becomes king rather than just another asset, because if someone can outrun you then it doesn't really matter how much damage you can do or endure.  Speed and range are the only important things, because no matter how much damage I do, I'll always beat someone whom I can hit and can't hit me.

 

At that point my options are to have more gap closers and speed enhancing boons/equipment/whatever, however, it's still very uninteractive without CC.   If I'm out of cooldowns/resources, run to distance.  If I can do damage without risk, run to range.  There's nothing else to it really.  I guess there's some dodging when you go in for an attack, but I have difficulty thinking of an interesting scenario.

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Say what you want about the CC in Daoc I would take it any day over the stun happy games of today. Long term mezz you group needed someone to demezz,

Dieased/rooted/slow you needed someone to expel this..... other then stun everthing was counterable ... well even stun if you blow you purge.....

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A melee DPS should have the option of performing well with a full DPS loadout.

 

No they shouldn't, not at all. That sounds like an awful idea. Just stand there and pew pew all day? I don't want combat to be that simplistic. It should involve a bit more thinking and strategy and CC done well is part of that.

Edited by leiloni

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"we don't need no epilation! we don't need no crow control. hey, creatures, leave us crows alone!"

- songtext by pink flight

 

nuff said.

Edited by Dr. Kraahk

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No they shouldn't, not at all. That sounds like an awful idea. Just stand there and pew pew all day? I don't want combat to be that simplistic. It should involve a bit more thinking and strategy and CC done well is part of that.

 

First up, this comment fails to take into account DPS abilities actually need to be AIMED in Crowfall. In addition, the presence of dodges or blocks will create an interesting DPS game even if there isn't any CC. Which is not necessarily what I wish to advocate.

 

Also on the topic of channeled CC: Hellz no. Not only are you distrupting the action economy of ONE player, you're doing it to TWO in this case. That's no fun for anyone.

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No they shouldn't, not at all. That sounds like an awful idea. Just stand there and pew pew all day? I don't want combat to be that simplistic. It should involve a bit more thinking and strategy and CC done well is part of that.

They don't have to make it overly simplistic to make a full dps build a thing. What they should do is make the combat system complicated enough that pure dps won't be the one way to go. Make pure dps a valid route, but make it squishy, and don't give it any way to counter what other classes can do. The more routes that are available to the players, the more fun the game will be. Small amounts of CC would also contribute to this, but not the kind of CC we see in AA. Too much CC makes combat just as boring as the way you described pure dps.


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I think CC is cool as long as there are enhancers to movement too and counters. One thing to keep in mind though. There is talk that there is not going to be heavy healing in this game so there will be a delicate balance if you add cc to it. 

 

On one hand you don't want melee to run over ranged but at the same time ya do not want ranged to stun lock melee too.  It will be interesting to see how it works out.

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I think CC is cool as long as there are enhancers to movement too and counters. One thing to keep in mind though. There is talk that there is not going to be heavy healing in this game so there will be a delicate balance if you add cc to it. 

 

On one hand you don't want melee to run over ranged but at the same time ya do not want ranged to stun lock melee too.  It will be interesting to see how it works out.

 

I've been thinking the same thing. One major purpose of a lot of CC in other games is to mitigate the massive amounts of healing - along with the massive amounts of damage needed to counter that. Without either of those things, you don't need as much CC. I think softer CC would be good, but less of the stuns, fears, sleeps. Perhaps some interrupts but not too often, decent CDs so it's more of a choice when to use it, and things like slows, roots, short silence broken upon damage, etc. Those things would work.

 

As much as I love TERA's combat, one thing that was not fun there was the amount of CC. If the devs want to see how not to do CC in action combat, check that out. There has always been a ton of healing in that game and the damage output has only been increasing at an insane rate with each patch. So of course every class has a ton of CC on very short CDs and it's all spammed by everyone all the time. I'd rather not see that here.

Edited by leiloni

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CC is in essence something that forces someone to respond to an action their opponent does in a very tangible way.  Without those sorts of interactions people are just playing solitare against health bars.  I don't really see viable alternatives to CC that still have player interaction.

CC is, in essence, something that forces someone to respond to an action their opponent has taken in a very specific way. That's the problem. It's akin to foe/creature design in a game in which you just say "this guy has 100% resistance to everything except Fire." That's no longer fun, because "Everyone just use one out of X number of damage types, this whole fight!" is counter-productive to the varietous/complex nature of RPG combat in the first place. The entire idea behind combat is that you have many capabilities, all of which won't always work, and some of which will be more effective in certain situations than in others. Then, automatically, on the flipside of that, you can use that knowledge to actively make your opponents capabilities less effective whenever he uses them, and yours more effective whenever you use yours.

 

ESPECIALLY in an action game like this, rather than a tab-targeting auto-combat game. So, the more expressly "CC" abilities you add in, the more layers of Tetris you're adding into combat. You can already block attacks with good timing, dodge them, use terrain and movement to your advantage, etc., and now you're tossing in roots, stuns, paralysis, polymorphing, confusion, etc. It just becomes a convoluted mess. As Nyt and others have pointed out in here already, it becomes a mess even in non-PvP games.

 

It's not that the very idea of control-focused abilities is bad, but you can't start from the notion that "there isn't any control-related stuff, so now lets add a bunch."

 

So, I dare say "hard CC" IS bad. At least, the "all I have to do is cast this on you and it works" kind. You can limit it pretty well, but then it becomes almost insignificant. There's just not much room for it at all in an action-combat game like Crowfall, where even a standard attack will be controllable.

 

There are TONS of solutions to allow a fluid battle without either removing hard CC or making stunlock a priority:

- Long cooldowns

- Heavy mana usage

- Short durations

- Long cast times

- Channeling CCs

- CC'd until damaged

- Skill shots

- Expensive skill (Needs a lot of points to acquire the skill)

- Debuff purging (Self or other players)

- And more...

For what it's worth, long cooldowns, long cast times, heavy mana usage, and expensive skill cost aren't very effective ways of reining in control abilities. If you can hard-stun someone for 10 seconds, for example, it really doesn't matter how long the cooldown is. Kinda like if you bring a nuke to a pistol fight, it doesn't matter how long it takes you to reload.

 

Anywho, I think the main thing to consider when designing control abilities in a game like this is that they should make characters react in clever and emergent ways. If they turn combat into Status Toggle Warz 2K15, then they're not really contributing very much. No one wants to lose a fight because the enemy had more disables than they did. Or, put another way, I want to lose because you prevented me from killing you before you killed me, and not because your ability inherently prevents me from killing you.

 

The same really goes for buffs and debuffs. All support abilities, really. They should make the fight more interesting, to see what response tactics emerge. Not require you to either prevent them from being used at all, or demand a very rigid response.

Edited by Lephys

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CC shouldn't be instant, but rather like any other attack with animation and range.  You should be able to dodge a CC.  CC should have a decent CD so it's not quickly repeated and used sparingly and tactically.  Group CC should require a cast time... perhaps the longer you cast, the bigger the AOE telegraph.

 

Escapes should exist only for escaping AOE, which require a rather longer distance dodge.  While dodge should require stamina, escapes have a decent CD similar to CC.

 

Both of these should be minimal and with the selection of CC/Escape abilities, you should sacrifice damage/DPS abilities.

 

MMOs like AA go a bit extreme with... CC - Escape - CC - Escape - Attack - CC - Escape - Attack... . just ridiculous exchange of CC and escapes. This is really what I want to avoid within CF.  I also don't want players to have the option of filling up their bars with multiple CC and escapes while also having their full loadout of DPS abilities.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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