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regicider8

Crowfall's "strategy" Element: Rts, 4X, Grand Strategy?

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Disclaimer: I will admit, I'm not the most avid player of MMOs. I've only ever played F2P MMOs, SWG, and RS(of all things), and even then I've only ever been a solo player, so I am by far not nearly as knowledgeable on the subject matter as some on here. However, I have played quite a few strategy games.

 

From my time on the forums, I've noticed that people have very different expectations from this game. Even with the Dev videos and the FAQs, people still have differing opinions. Well, why is that?

The selling point of the game is this "mix between strategy and MMORPG", stating, "it's like Game of Thrones meets EVE Online". Well, what comes to mind when you hear Game of Thrones and EVE online?

 

For Game of Thrones, I imagine an ever more complicated conflict between multiple individuals and factions to rule the Seven Kingdoms, full of intrigue, plotting, diplomacy, and war.

For EVE Online, I imagine the various Player-run MegaCorps vying for advantage over one another, through intrigue, plotting, diplomacy, and war.

For the most part, I assume this is the same for everyone, as these aspects make each of those subjects interesting and stand out.

 

ACE certainly seems to be heading in this direction, as there are Campaigns (which tests a group's/organization's ability to accomplish an objective to gain resources) and Eternal Kingdoms(a territory which a group/organization/individual has claimed to be theirs). These two systems at least imply that:

1). There is a limited distribution of resources that players must fight over.

2). Players have territory from which they gain advantage from having.

 

These two aspects are very important in every strategy game(not necessarily tactics-oriented games, but I digress), and Crowfall seems to understand that. However, there are many kinds of strategy games, and I believe this is where expectations differ:

 

What type of Strategy game is Crowfall?

This is a good question, and it seems to be going in at least three directions:

 

1). RTS (Age of Empires, Starcraft, Command & Conquer, etc)

RTS seems to be the strongest contender so far. The "Eternal Heroes, Dying Worlds" statement definitely implies that each campaign will be the equivalent to one match of X game. This is a perfectly fine formula for any Strategy game(look at the success of Starcraft as an e-sport), but I'm not sure it fits well with Crowfall. Although these types of matches are entertaining, they don't really hold any sort of connection or consequence. In Crowfall, completing campaigns allocates resources, which can then be used to upgrade the Eternal Kingdom. However, what happens when an EK is fully upgraded? Would resources become useless outside of a campaign? It seems pointless to even have an "Eternal Kingdoms minigame", as it only distracts players from the main part of the game, which would be the campaigns.

 

2). 4X (Civilization, Sins of a Solar Empire, Sword of the Stars, etc)

4X seems somewhat likely as well, as the campaigns seem to follow the four Xs(Explore, Expand, Exploit, Exterminate). However, a 4X game has a very different feeling than an RTS game. In games like this, there is a greater emphasis on diplomacy and development, as it is usually disadvantageous to focus completely on warfare. As such, gameplay focuses more on the growth of player power, as well as long term consequences. This type of strategy seems more up the alley of those who want "emergent gameplay", as history and conflicts would be caused by player motives. However, campaigns do not allow for emergent gameplay, only emergent strategies/tactics. The conflict is already predetermined, so there is no room for meaningful diplomacy when every campaign ends with a clear victor. Eternal Kingdoms could fill this gap, but it does not meet the last X credential(Exterminate), unless it becomes possible to attack/subjugate other Eternal Kingdoms.

 

3). Grand Strategy (Total War series, Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis, etc)

Very similar to 4X, this type of strategy focus more on military strategy on a larger scale, usually in terms of states. This type of strategy seems highly unlikely, unless Eternal Kingdoms can be contested and fought over.

 

 

These are the three types of strategies I can see Crowfall becoming, and I'm fairly certain this is where most of the expectations differ between people. What type of strategy game do you think Crowfall will become?

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I can only hope Crowfall is a game of macro, where smart choices and strategic Points of Interest become key to victory in a Campaign.

 

As far as what I think the game will be, I can't tell.  I am definitely excited about the strategy aspect of the game though.  Piss poor armies are the most amusing.


How Can Mounts Add to the Crowfall Experience?  Caravans, Hunting Boars, and more.

 

How Complex can Mining be in Crowfall?  Mining difficulty, fatigue, infrastructure.

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Disclaimer: I will admit, I'm not the most avid player of MMOs. I've only ever played F2P MMOs, SWG, and RS(of all things), and even then I've only ever been a solo player, so I am by far not nearly as knowledgeable on the subject matter as some on here. However, I have played quite a few strategy games.

 

From my time on the forums, I've noticed that people have very different expectations from this game. Even with the Dev videos and the FAQs, people still have differing opinions. Well, why is that?

The selling point of the game is this "mix between strategy and MMORPG", stating, "it's like Game of Thrones meets EVE Online". Well, what comes to mind when you hear Game of Thrones and EVE online?

 

For Game of Thrones, I imagine an ever more complicated conflict between multiple individuals and factions to rule the Seven Kingdoms, full of intrigue, plotting, diplomacy, and war.

For EVE Online, I imagine the various Player-run MegaCorps vying for advantage over one another, through intrigue, plotting, diplomacy, and war.

For the most part, I assume this is the same for everyone, as these aspects make each of those subjects interesting and stand out.

 

ACE certainly seems to be heading in this direction, as there are Campaigns (which tests a group's/organization's ability to accomplish an objective to gain resources) and Eternal Kingdoms(a territory which a group/organization/individual has claimed to be theirs). These two systems at least imply that:

1). There is a limited distribution of resources that players must fight over.

2). Players have territory from which they gain advantage from having.

 

These two aspects are very important in every strategy game(not necessarily tactics-oriented games, but I digress), and Crowfall seems to understand that. However, there are many kinds of strategy games, and I believe this is where expectations differ:

 

What type of Strategy game is Crowfall?

This is a good question, and it seems to be going in at least three directions:

 

1). RTS (Age of Empires, Starcraft, Command & Conquer, etc)

RTS seems to be the strongest contender so far. The "Eternal Heroes, Dying Worlds" statement definitely implies that each campaign will be the equivalent to one match of X game. This is a perfectly fine formula for any Strategy game(look at the success of Starcraft as an e-sport), but I'm not sure it fits well with Crowfall. Although these types of matches are entertaining, they don't really hold any sort of connection or consequence. In Crowfall, completing campaigns allocates resources, which can then be used to upgrade the Eternal Kingdom. However, what happens when an EK is fully upgraded? Would resources become useless outside of a campaign? It seems pointless to even have an "Eternal Kingdoms minigame", as it only distracts players from the main part of the game, which would be the campaigns.

 

2). 4X (Civilization, Sins of a Solar Empire, Sword of the Stars, etc)

4X seems somewhat likely as well, as the campaigns seem to follow the four Xs(Explore, Expand, Exploit, Exterminate). However, a 4X game has a very different feeling than an RTS game. In games like this, there is a greater emphasis on diplomacy and development, as it is usually disadvantageous to focus completely on warfare. As such, gameplay focuses more on the growth of player power, as well as long term consequences. This type of strategy seems more up the alley of those who want "emergent gameplay", as history and conflicts would be caused by player motives. However, campaigns do not allow for emergent gameplay, only emergent strategies/tactics. The conflict is already predetermined, so there is no room for meaningful diplomacy when every campaign ends with a clear victor. Eternal Kingdoms could fill this gap, but it does not meet the last X credential(Exterminate), unless it becomes possible to attack/subjugate other Eternal Kingdoms.

 

3). Grand Strategy (Total War series, Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis, etc)

Very similar to 4X, this type of strategy focus more on military strategy on a larger scale, usually in terms of states. This type of strategy seems highly unlikely, unless Eternal Kingdoms can be contested and fought over.

 

 

These are the three types of strategies I can see Crowfall becoming, and I'm fairly certain this is where most of the expectations differ between people. What type of strategy game do you think Crowfall will become?

 

I think RTS isn't as flawed as you make it out to be. The point of EK's isn't just to be upgraded. The replayability comes from each Campaign being a different generated world and a different ruleset. It's about the journey, not the destination. A bloody, politics and betrayal driven journey. The EK's are just a waystation on your way to the next battle.

Edited by Makeshyft

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i am hoping crow fall becomes more of a dungeons and dragons online , meet eve online and the good old shadow bane meet's a stronghold based game in one.

for instance in DDO(dungeons and dragons online) every choice you make can great affect your character BUT . you can deeply develop your character as you go. requiring skills to see traps , avoid traps , disable traps , swim , jump , climb , feather fall , roll , and virtually every kind of movement most MMO's don't have added to their combat system.

eve and shadow bane both have the right aspects of being massive and multiplayer in a very creative way with deep politics involved in a player run environment ( you make the rules , others live or die by it etc) and lastly the stronghold aspect(your EK) being able to build your own "fort knox" at some point is a fun concept !

but combat and keeping players having fun while doing so should be #1 priority which i am sure they are working very hard towards!


"people are stupid , given the proper motivation can be made to believe any lie; either because they want to believe it is true or because they fear it is true" - wizard's first rule

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I can only hope Crowfall is a game of macro, where smart choices and strategic Points of Interest become key to victory in a Campaign.

 

As far as what I think the game will be, I can't tell.  I am definitely excited about the strategy aspect of the game though.  Piss poor armies are the most amusing.

 

I hope Crowfall implements macro well, though I think it relies more on player initiative than anything. Having strategic points/advantageous territory seems at least implied for some campaign rulesets, but we'll see how logistics and all that work out in Campaigns.

 

 

I think RTS isn't as flawed as you make it out to be. The point of EK's isn't just to be upgraded. The replayability comes from each Campaign being a different generated world and a different ruleset. It's about the journey, not the destination. A bloody, politics and betrayal driven journey. The EK's are just a waystation on your way to the next battle.

 

I understand that the point of campaigns was to create new and interesting scenarios, but I don't see the point of including the current EKs if they do not contribute to the main gameplay of the game(as in campaigns). The fealty system they put into EKs is really interesting, but how is it practical/advantageous to use? If EKs are just glorified player housing/lobbies, I think there is a lot of unused potential.

When you say politics, what do you mean exactly? I can't see politics mattering much in campaigns, but maybe in EKs? I'd like to hear your ideas on this. :)

Also, why can't the journey and the destination be important? :P

 

i am hoping crow fall becomes more of a dungeons and dragons online , meet eve online and the good old shadow bane meet's a stronghold based game in one.

 

for instance in DDO(dungeons and dragons online) every choice you make can great affect your character BUT . you can deeply develop your character as you go. requiring skills to see traps , avoid traps , disable traps , swim , jump , climb , feather fall , roll , and virtually every kind of movement most MMO's don't have added to their combat system.

 

eve and shadow bane both have the right aspects of being massive and multiplayer in a very creative way with deep politics involved in a player run environment ( you make the rules , others live or die by it etc) and lastly the stronghold aspect(your EK) being able to build your own "fort knox" at some point is a fun concept !

 

but combat and keeping players having fun while doing so should be #1 priority which i am sure they are working very hard towards!

 

I agree, and I think this is where Crowfall is going. I do wonder how/if they will combine the "deep politics involved in a player run environment" and "being able to build your own fort knox". Stronghold is a good example of how certain fortification designs can greatly advantage the defender, and I hope to see this in Campaigns. I'm not sure about the point in EKs though, as they can't be attacked.

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I think the combat is very much RTS while the management part of the game if more akin to the 4X games.

 

The grand strategy is indeed least likely.

That would require a permanent map, most likely, or the prescence of very clear, large scale management tools.


"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

A solid quote, I'd say.

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The game is far closer to the RTS than the others.

 

Resource management, real time combat, base building. Picture yourself as a unit in Age of Empires and extend the match over months and you get Crowfall.

 

It does have some GC qualities as well though. Territorial expansion, meta game strategy and the potential for real diplomacy and economy (alliances and trade routes).

 

Either way, this makes me happy :)

Edited by Adall

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The game is far closer to the RTS than the others.

 

Resource management, real time combat, base building. Picture yourself as a unit in Age of Empires and extend the match over months and you get Crowfall.

Loved the comparisson.

I'd also compare it a bit to Mount and Blade Warband, but with more types of objectives than just towns and cities.

 

With the Freelancer mod it fits the picture pretty well in my opinion.


"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

A solid quote, I'd say.

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Resource management, real time combat, base building. Picture yourself as a unit in Age of Empires and extend the match over months and you get Crowfall.

 

 

I'd be the priest converting catapults to christianity.


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I am hoping the seasons really change the game up. I hope the cold temperatures, and food scarcity really punish strong guilds that neglected those elements in the spring. I also hope alliances can be included in game mechanics.

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I'd be the priest converting catapults to christianity.

A real tough objective.  But someone has to do it, I suppose.  


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

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I'd be the priest converting catapults to christianity.

You should create a guild that would just run around converting catapults and other siege equipment.

 

Would make for some funny moments.


"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

A solid quote, I'd say.

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Yes YES my darlings muhahahaaaa!!

 
Ahem,it isn't hard to see that the RTS elements in Crowfall's combat would change the flow of battles quite drastically & innovate combat 
in a very positive manner.
Because now we have to be aware of other unit categories that impose a threat on us.
And we'd have to help fellow units that fall short in one area but can help us further on(like ones with slower movement speed like siege units)
It makes us aware of the players around us & also caters to the emphasize they want to put on tactical decision making.
The problem with the more recent classless mmo's we've seen is that they could fulfil any role & are very self-sufficient.
All classes are so balanced that none of them impose a real danger to each other.
So in large scale battles they can all just rush through content/battles because there isn't really something that imposes a great danger
towards a bigger group of players.But when the rts element sets in ,a group of ganking rangers that stumble accross a siege golem would be made into apple compote.
We need peril on the battlefield ,retreating should be a valid tactical consideration

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*converts you all with my priestly magic's .... WOLOLO WOLOLO WOLOLO lol


"people are stupid , given the proper motivation can be made to believe any lie; either because they want to believe it is true or because they fear it is true" - wizard's first rule

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Maybe if you surpass a certain threshold of friendly fire you'd be prone to conversion then  :lol:

I've been wondering how such special powers would go up against each other.

Like if 2 gorgons with petrifying gaze would be up against each other,or when two priests of aoe with conversion power would be up against each other

 


I forgot,it seems like the special power would convert to damage when two of the same special powers are up against each other, and in the end one will get killed;


Edited by Tipsy

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My theory us that campaigns will have phases that will look more like one type of strategy game during spring (probably 4x) and another during winter (RTS). Spring will be largely about exploring regions, claiming them, and exploiting their resources to get up and running. As the campaign progresses the edges of the map will get filled in, everything will be claimed, alliances will be set, and the full scale wars will begin.

Edited by Joziah09

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Given the references to EVE, I had hoped that there would be some kind of long-term sovereignty mechanic by which player groups held together empires. I fear the reality will be more a month long first person multiplayer online battle arena (MOBA) game like LoL, with the player's personal area being a glorified player lobby. I hope I am wrong. I would like the campaigns to have meaning.

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