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Crowfall's "strategy" Element: Rts, 4X, Grand Strategy?


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The conflict is already predetermined, so there is no room for meaningful diplomacy when every campaign ends with a clear victor.

 

Minor point, but there has been shown, in some campaigns, to have a kneel option. This would not have a "clear victor" and could definitely lead to meaningful diplomacy and emergent gameplay. Unless, of course, I'm reading too much into it.

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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I think there will defo have a high lvl of strategies going on in the big united guilds who like in guild wars chose to like pre game and smash the faces of everyone Titan Guild i think they called them selves annoying as hell and that kind of organisation hopefully will spawn other guilds to group and make so links and you will see a lot of immergant gamplay "Grand Strategy" from that. As for the RTS i think that wil depend on teams of people grouping and agreeing to follow a single or a command group making decisions for the whole.

 

This is where This game will win or lose IMO i really hope because its seeming to me we must FIGHT together big guild small guild a lot of the champagnes rely us making some kind of link and fighting to win for our chosen side so the actual pvp people might have to realise that and im sorry to say it but. None of us are Naruto in this game were more like a whole bunch of Ten-Ten's which aint fantastic but together we make one SUPER NARUTO so i really hope to see alot of immergant gameplay from people who are will to fight together link and make some history for me to remember as a gamer for years to come.

 

Resourse seems to also be king so X4 will 100% important to us all if we plan to have any resources come bk to our EK to build and upgrade and so on and like in most game he whom holds the food lives.

Hey just Shout Bremmen and he will, Rise and Destroy the people you wish decimated :o

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Given the references to EVE, I had hoped that there would be some kind of long-term sovereignty mechanic by which player groups held together empires. I fear the reality will be more a month long first person multiplayer online battle arena (MOBA) game like LoL, with the player's personal area being a glorified player lobby. I hope I am wrong. I would like the campaigns to have meaning.

 

I agree, I think MOBA is definitely where Crowfall can go, if it's not there already. I guess it would be better to compare a campaign to a long MOBA match than anything, so adding some sort of metagame would definitely push it more towards "Game of Thrones meets EVE Online". "Long-term sovereignty mechanic" would fit the bill nicely. Something like this, perhaps?

 

Minor point, but there has been shown, in some campaigns, to have a kneel option. This would not have a "clear victor" and could definitely lead to meaningful diplomacy and emergent gameplay. Unless, of course, I'm reading too much into it.

 

This is a fair point, and the more I think about it and read other threads, maybe meaningful diplomacy will be a key part to each campaign. I guess it also depends on what "Kneeling" does and the consequences of it. It could mean an early surrender option, or a subjugation option, in my eyes. Of course, it could also change per campaign.

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I agree, I think MOBA is definitely where Crowfall can go, if it's not there already. I guess it would be better to compare a campaign to a long MOBA match than anything, so adding some sort of metagame would definitely push it more towards "Game of Thrones meets EVE Online". "Long-term sovereignty mechanic" would fit the bill nicely. Something like this, perhaps?

 

 

This is a fair point, and the more I think about it and read other threads, maybe meaningful diplomacy will be a key part to each campaign. I guess it also depends on what "Kneeling" does and the consequences of it. It could mean an early surrender option, or a subjugation option, in my eyes. Of course, it could also change per campaign.

You mean a moba where you cannot choose between a bunch of premade characters, have persistent characters, where fights lasts 4000 times longer (yes, you read it right), where you can build and destroy, where the "arena" is a thousand times bigger, where you don't fight from the minute you log in til it's over, where have to gather resouces and actually craft..

 

etc etc.

 

You know, it's fine to have discussions about CF being a sandbox or themepark.

Atleast it is in the same sphere.

But to claim that it would be a moba, solely based on campaigns ending is moronic.

What's next, CF is a shooter if we can aim?

Is it minecraft because we can build?

Wait, maybe its a flight sim since fae have wings.

 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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Given the references to EVE, I had hoped that there would be some kind of long-term sovereignty mechanic by which player groups held together empires. I fear the reality will be more a month long first person multiplayer online battle arena (MOBA) game like LoL, with the player's personal area being a glorified player lobby. I hope I am wrong. I would like the campaigns to have meaning.

I wish there was a dislike button

 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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I think the strategy element applies to mapping and locations of things like stronghold and resources. That's the basis of Civilization. You build your city closer to resources in order to acquire them and convert them into mines or vegetation so you can link your empire to that. All of that is always subject to changes over time.

 

Strategy is about coordination of resources and location and the means to go about it. I have a feeling that checking the map in Crowfall will be a frequent thing as things are destroyed or built over time, changing the landscape of things and new campaigns emerge. Just like in Civilization when you start a new game, you're in a new location, and new tiles. This will let you choose different areas to stage attacks and defenses instead of some singular tedious spawn point. It will give you more freedom and choices and to even actually improvise. You only have 2 friends online, go for smaller camps or hunt enemy players to loot their goods, that sort of thing.

 

Maybe some days, the map will be quiet on the surface, but enemy Guild A is quietly stockpiling a massive warehouse of siege weapons to overrun a stronghold that Guild B has been stocking with iron from a nearby mine. That sort of thing is a common element found in EvE. The following days, you wake up, log in and there's chaos, things are burning, and enemy guild A has been launching an offensive for a couple hours. You work with what you have, and decide that you go infiltrate their warehouse while they're occupied instead of defending the siege. Maybe they were smart enough to choose to leave a few guards and you find yourself in a 2v3 fight over such things. Improvisation like that is key to emergent gameplay.

 

The only thing that's set in stone is the campaign rule, like in Civilization V you decide to adjust things like player numbers, map size, victory conditions. I have more of a feeling that it'll be a fusion of Total War and Civilization in some ways when regarding maps and locations so I agree with OP on that.

 

And as for the MOBA thing, I only think if that you involve action with characters, it's more in the vein of SMITE than a topdown MOBA like DoTA 2. SMITE pretty much has the elements of 3rd person PVP with special abilities* and basic attack, and using the map and your location to an advantage for your personal skills to kick in. The good thing about that is the fireworks of variables that it produces and how you can improvise in certain situations, like calling for retreat or calling to attack, ambush and set up traps or react to such things. It's way more fast paced and frenetic at times. It's the only thing I play that satiates my PVP needs atm... =/ Only thing about SMITE combat that is I wish I could create a character and customize it and be part of a role in a large scale MMO and be in a immersive changing world instead of a matchmade game.

 

*the special abilities nukes, gap closes or used as an escape bothways (leaps or charges/dashes), Hard Crowd Control like stuns/mesmerize/taunt, Soft Crowd Control like slows/cripples and protection debuff,  utility like stealth and very temporary summons, escapes on hot keys. These abilities are mostly skillshots, ground targeted, toggles and utility. You would have to aim them on the opponent or on the ground beneath the opponent to cause damage or stuns, they don't lock or home in on them.

 

Does that all really sound familiar to you? I see this stuff in MMOs all the time, just in more static instances.

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Well, from what I've seen from trailers and gotten from the developers, what Crowfall sounds like is old school Alterac Valley in World of Warcraft, with destructible terrain and a Dark Souls like mentality towards equipment.  Everyone is just a pawn in a bigger game that the majority of us probably wont be thinking about too much unless we are in the upper levels of management in an organization or something.

 

So I wouldn't really even think of this title in terms of an RTS, 4X, or a Grand Strategy game.  Crowfall sounds like it is going to play out more like a sports game with seasons, only the players aren't fighting over a ball, the local wild life hates everybody for even being in eye shot, and the opposing teams have very pointy sticks.

 

:D  

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You mean a moba where you cannot choose between a bunch of premade characters, have persistent characters, where fights lasts 4000 times longer (yes, you read it right), where you can build and destroy, where the "arena" is a thousand times bigger, where you don't fight from the minute you log in til it's over, where have to gather resouces and actually craft..

 

etc etc.

 

You know, it's fine to have discussions about CF being a sandbox or themepark.

Atleast it is in the same sphere.

But to claim that it would be a moba, solely based on campaigns ending is moronic.

What's next, CF is a shooter if we can aim?

Is it minecraft because we can build?

Wait, maybe its a flight sim since fae have wings.

 

Interesting that you chose to attack my description of a Campaign being similar to a match in a MOBA, but not my description of it as a match in an RTS.

I guess I just don't define a MOBA as a game where "you cannot choose between a bunch of premade characters customize your character (I think this is what you meant), Don't have persistent characters, where fights don't lasts 4000 times longer, where you can't build and destroy, where the "arena" isn't a thousand times bigger, where you do fight from the minute you log in til it's over, where you don't have to gather resouces and actually craft".

 

When I was referring to a Campaign being similar to a match in a MOBA, I was thinking something along the lines of SMITE(if that helps clarify my thought), just with all of those aspects you described.

To be fair, I shouldn't really say it is similar to a MOBA. I was more referring to the lack of continuation after said match, like my description in RTS, but thought the control of a specific unit in a very tactical game would better describe the idea behind a Campaign.

And yes, everything is just a minecraft ripoff. :P

 

I think the strategy element applies to mapping and locations of things like stronghold and resources. That's the basis of Civilization. You build your city closer to resources in order to acquire them and convert them into mines or vegetation so you can link your empire to that. All of that is always subject to changes over time.

 

Strategy is about coordination of resources and location and the means to go about it. I have a feeling that checking the map in Crowfall will be a frequent thing as things are destroyed or built over time, changing the landscape of things and new campaigns emerge. Just like in Civilization when you start a new game, you're in a new location, and new tiles. This will let you choose different areas to stage attacks and defenses instead of some singular tedious spawn point. It will give you more freedom and choices and to even actually improvise. You only have 2 friends online, go for smaller camps or hunt enemy players to loot their goods, that sort of thing.

 

Maybe some days, the map will be quiet on the surface, but enemy Guild A is quietly stockpiling a massive warehouse of siege weapons to overrun a stronghold that Guild B has been stocking with iron from a nearby mine. That sort of thing is a common element found in EvE. The following days, you wake up, log in and there's chaos, things are burning, and enemy guild A has been launching an offensive for a couple hours. You work with what you have, and decide that you go infiltrate their warehouse while they're occupied instead of defending the siege. Maybe they were smart enough to choose to leave a few guards and you find yourself in a 2v3 fight over such things. Improvisation like that is key to emergent gameplay.

 

The only thing that's set in stone is the campaign rule, like in Civilization V you decide to adjust things like player numbers, map size, victory conditions. I have more of a feeling that it'll be a fusion of Total War and Civilization in some ways when regarding maps and locations so I agree with OP on that.

 

And as for the MOBA thing, I only think if that you involve action with characters, it's more in the vein of SMITE than a topdown MOBA like DoTA 2. SMITE pretty much has the elements of 3rd person PVP with special abilities* and basic attack, and using the map and your location to an advantage for your personal skills to kick in. The good thing about that is the fireworks of variables that it produces and how you can improvise in certain situations, like calling for retreat or calling to attack, ambush and set up traps or react to such things. It's way more fast paced and frenetic at times. It's the only thing I play that satiates my PVP needs atm... =/ Only thing about SMITE combat that is I wish I could create a character and customize it and be part of a role in a large scale MMO and be in a immersive changing world instead of a matchmade game.

 

*the special abilities nukes, gap closes or used as an escape bothways (leaps or charges/dashes), Hard Crowd Control like stuns/mesmerize/taunt, Soft Crowd Control like slows/cripples and protection debuff,  utility like stealth and very temporary summons, escapes on hot keys. These abilities are mostly skillshots, ground targeted, toggles and utility. You would have to aim them on the opponent or on the ground beneath the opponent to cause damage or stuns, they don't lock or home in on them.

 

Does that all really sound familiar to you? I see this stuff in MMOs all the time, just in more static instances.

 

You brought up a good point: Downtime. I think this could definitely lead to a lot of emergent gameplay from a design perspective. Because groups won't have to focus 100% of their time and attention completing the objective, they won't necessarily see all others as enemies. They would be able to create their own goals in terms of resource collection, city building, invading, etc, until they turn their attention towards objectives. Who knows, a group could even forfeit a few VPs(or the equivalent) to focus more on an advantage in the long run. I like this a lot. :)

 

Well, from what I've seen from trailers and gotten from the developers, what Crowfall sounds like is old school Alterac Valley in World of Warcraft, with destructible terrain and a Dark Souls like mentality towards equipment.  Everyone is just a pawn in a bigger game that the majority of us probably wont be thinking about too much unless we are in the upper levels of management in an organization or something.

 

So I wouldn't really even think of this title in terms of an RTS, 4X, or a Grand Strategy game.  Crowfall sounds like it is going to play out more like a sports game with seasons, only the players aren't fighting over a ball, the local wild life hates everybody for even being in eye shot, and the opposing teams have very pointy sticks.

 

:D  

 

I mean, with the claim that it's, "like Game of Thrones meets EVE Online" and with the "Uncle Bob" scenario, I thought it would be suitable. Though I do understand your point. I probably won't be making any decisions in terms of long-term strategy, but it's always nice to dream/lie to yourself. :)

Edited by regicider8
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Crowfall is a Grand Strategy game. It is about coordinating resources, efforts, and armies (not individuals) toward the objective of war, namely securing the most Bloodstone VPs. War is also won with politics, economic warfare, and moral and ethical attacks--forum warrioring, trash talking, & propaganda. 

 

I think what is tripping people up about Crowfall is that the player takes the role of a single character actor in the game. Unlike other Strategy and Grand Strategy games, the player is not an omnipotent commander; they are a single character with very limited capabilities. 

 

Unlike traditional MMORPGs, Crowfall is a Game instead of a Toy. Having a victory condition that ends play qualifies Crowfall as a game. A traditional, never-ending MMORPG is a toy--a thing that can be played with but cannot be won. Players create their own goals for the toy and play with it trying to meet those goals, and different players often have different goals. Game vs Toy is the difference between a ball and a game of soccer/football. Everyone is trying to achieve Bloodstone victory in Crowfall. 

 

A singular actor coupled with a Game environment causes people to think Crowfall must be some perversion of a MOBA. While there are similarities, there are much more significant differences. The breadth of strategy involved in Crowfall will be much larger than a MOBA:

  • Teams are not set in stone, and player counts and affiliations/relations will change during a game of Crowfall.
  • Depleting an opponents resources is very possible in Crowfall (sure there is economic warfare in MOBAs via taking most of the gold on the map, but the potential for third parties to supply a besieged team adds a whole other aspect). Resources are a very real commodity that have logistical considerations. 
  • Territory can be gained as well as lost. Control of points of interest are longer-lasting and are not confined by a limited arena. Map control in MOBAs is fleeting.
  • Crowfall has periods of rest, when players can reflect and form/change plans. The length of the game then allows those changes to happen. Crowfall is not simply a "longer MOBA". Even if Campaigns are only days long, that still provides periods of thought, diplomacy, and recruitment.

 

As for the thread topic, I don't think Crowfall easily falls into any traditional strategy video game genres. Typically the player in those games is a disembodied commander. DuneCraft is all about micromanagement (I'm including "macro" in that term since players are still micromanaging their unit production). 4X is really too far removed from Crowfall in that the player is severely limited in capabilities. Europa Universalis also has the same Commander quality as the player is directly controlling the efforts of the state.

 

We can try to draw similarities between Crowfall and Eve, Shadowbane, and various war board games, but Crowfall is different than all of them. It's really the first game that I know of that is a Massive Grand Strategy Role-playing Game. It might feel like Eve or Shadowbane at times, but the impetus to actually Win and get victory points may change the whole environment. It might feel like Risk, but not everyone will be in the War Room, directing strategy and diplomacy. 

 

I think recruitment and coordination are going to be two very important tenants of a successful Crowfall team, which isn't too different than PvP MMORPGs. There will be field commanders, scouts, players who will be entrusted to look at the map and optimize resource efforts. Efficiency will be very important in Crowfall, which I think is very new for PvP MMORPG players. I'm not completely sure that players will be able to be wayward, carefree marauders just looking for some casual PvP--are they able to lose tons of gear and still be competitive on the larger scale? 

 

It's going to be new, which is what excites me the most.

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the pvp sandbox purists now have blocked you.

 

>.>

 

Crowfall is a Grand Strategy game. It is about coordinating resources, efforts, and armies (not individuals) toward the objective of war, namely securing the most Bloodstone VPs. War is also won with politics, economic warfare, and moral and ethical attacks--forum warrioring, trash talking, & propaganda. 

 

I think what is tripping people up about Crowfall is that the player takes the role of a single character actor in the game. Unlike other Strategy and Grand Strategy games, the player is not an omnipotent commander; they are a single character with very limited capabilities. 

 

Unlike traditional MMORPGs, Crowfall is a Game instead of a Toy. Having a victory condition that ends play qualifies Crowfall as a game. A traditional, never-ending MMORPG is a toy--a thing that can be played with but cannot be won. Players create their own goals for the toy and play with it trying to meet those goals, and different players often have different goals. Game vs Toy is the difference between a ball and a game of soccer/football. Everyone is trying to achieve Bloodstone victory in Crowfall. 

 

A singular actor coupled with a Game environment causes people to think Crowfall must be some perversion of a MOBA. While there are similarities, there are much more significant differences. The breadth of strategy involved in Crowfall will be much larger than a MOBA:

  • Teams are not set in stone, and player counts and affiliations/relations will change during a game of Crowfall.
  • Depleting an opponents resources is very possible in Crowfall (sure there is economic warfare in MOBAs via taking most of the gold on the map, but the potential for third parties to supply a besieged team adds a whole other aspect). Resources are a very real commodity that have logistical considerations. 
  • Territory can be gained as well as lost. Control of points of interest are longer-lasting and are not confined by a limited arena. Map control in MOBAs is fleeting.
  • Crowfall has periods of rest, when players can reflect and form/change plans. The length of the game then allows those changes to happen. Crowfall is not simply a "longer MOBA". Even if Campaigns are only days long, that still provides periods of thought, diplomacy, and recruitment.

 

As for the thread topic, I don't think Crowfall easily falls into any traditional strategy video game genres. Typically the player in those games is a disembodied commander. DuneCraft is all about micromanagement (I'm including "macro" in that term since players are still micromanaging their unit production). 4X is really too far removed from Crowfall in that the player is severely limited in capabilities. Europa Universalis also has the same Commander quality as the player is directly controlling the efforts of the state.

 

We can try to draw similarities between Crowfall and Eve, Shadowbane, and various war board games, but Crowfall is different than all of them. It's really the first game that I know of that is a Massive Grand Strategy Role-playing Game. It might feel like Eve or Shadowbane at times, but the impetus to actually Win and get victory points may change the whole environment. It might feel like Risk, but not everyone will be in the War Room, directing strategy and diplomacy. 

 

I think recruitment and coordination are going to be two very important tenants of a successful Crowfall team, which isn't too different than PvP MMORPGs. There will be field commanders, scouts, players who will be entrusted to look at the map and optimize resource efforts. Efficiency will be very important in Crowfall, which I think is very new for PvP MMORPG players. I'm not completely sure that players will be able to be wayward, carefree marauders just looking for some casual PvP--are they able to lose tons of gear and still be competitive on the larger scale? 

 

It's going to be new, which is what excites me the most.

 

Well put!

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