Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
bairloch

Why Ttk And The Zerg Are Inextricably Linked

Recommended Posts

So I've contributed to many conversations here about Time to Kill. A lot of folks think it should be longer than real life because it isn't "fun" to be randomly one-shotted on occasion. I'm of the opinion that one shots should be possible. And this morning, I realized that having that possibility is very important to battling the Zerg. Allow me to explain.

 

In real life, fortifications can trump the Zerg. Well fortified forces often need sieging and starving out (the real meaning of siege, not the SB one). Having more numbers isn't necessarily going to beat a well prepared, well defended fortification. Why is that?

 

Because humans are so very easy to kill and/or incapacitate. IRL, you lob an explosive, some boiling oil or alchemists fire into a packed group of humans and you're going to take a large portion of them out of the battle in one blow. It isn't "fun", it isn't "fair", but it is true.

 

In video games, we've decided that this can't happen. We've given everyone these massive health bars so an explosive near us takes off, say... a third of our health, and then we pop a potion and we're not even breaking stride. This is what gives the Zerg its power. If the Zerg was as fragile as a human mob, this kind of thing would not happen. That explosive would put them down in large swathes and they'd have to change tactics.

 

In a game like CF, you can have explosives, AOE spells and whatever else they put in. If those took people out of the battle a dozen at a time, you'd break the Zerg fairly quickly. But that brings up an awful question of balance. That same splodie used in a small battle or even one-on-one would be horribly unbalancing.

 

So what to do? Perhaps a mechanism where the more toons per square meter (or some such measurement) has a multiplier on the explosions. This does have some real-life merit as contained explosions do much more damage than one dropped on an open plain. So that same AOE nuke that does a third of your health bar in one-on-one combat does triple damage if you're packed into a Zerg.

 

Now, this doesn't mean that large armies will be useless. No, you'll just have to actually use tactics to deploy them. A raiding party to the wall in this spot while an artillery team works over this section of the wall and sappers are undermining this section. The rest held in reserve because you know you will take heavy losses. Send in reinforcements here, a cavalry charge there and your own nuke squadron there... when the time is right.

 

This won't be popular because everyone wants to be fighting all the time, now now now, me me me, instant gratification!!!!111!!!eleven!! Yeah, well, that's how we got the Zerg to begin with, isn't it? So maybe changing our thinking a bit can get us out of this Zerg-loop we're stuck in and actually see some real battles?


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the idea though I have one problem with it.

 

The reason these AoE things are so strong in real life is because they require a lot of knowledge and time to build and opperate.

To create the kind of fire you speak of in medieval times required a genius.

 

For this reason, AoE would be a bit too strong in most cases.

 

I think it's just a matter of balance.

Trying to find the right amount of health points vs the right amount of damage.

 

I do agree however that players in Crowfall should be squishier than in most other MMORPG's.

Not just because it would be more realistic but more because the players in other MMO's are usually unbelievably tanky.


"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

A solid quote, I'd say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the idea though I have one problem with it.

 

The reason these AoE things are so strong in real life is because they require a lot of knowledge and time to build and opperate.

To create the kind of fire you speak of in medieval times required a genius.

 

For this reason, AoE would be a bit too strong in most cases.

 

I think it's just a matter of balance.

Trying to find the right amount of health points vs the right amount of damage.

 

I do agree however that players in Crowfall should be squishier than in most other MMORPG's.

Not just because it would be more realistic but more because the players in other MMO's are usually unbelievably tanky.

 

Players seem extremely tanky in other games because of firehose healers, they nixed that mechanic for Crowfall. You don't want quick ArmA-realistic deaths in Crowfall with the gear breaking/loot mechanics, the crafters wouldn't be able to keep up. We have centaurs and gerbils, we're not talking realism here.

 

There have been plenty of ways to fight the zerg in the past, generally because they're usually extremely unorganized. When I see a zerg, I think easy kills at their back quarter.

 

p.s. You'll never stop the zerg. They'll always find a way unless you make grouping so awful, that no one wants to do it. This kills ze game.


☆ We are in a positive posting drought, so just post. Be the change you want the forums to be. Go wild. Just follow your positive posting star. ☆
☆:*´¨`*:.•.¸¸.•´¯`•.♥.•´¯`•.¸¸.•..:*´¨`*:.☆

(¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯) Member of the Pro-ACE Club (¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Players seem extremely tanky in other games because of firehose healers, they nixed that mechanic for Crowfall. You don't want quick ArmA-realistic deaths in Crowfall with the gear breaking/loot mechanics, the crafters wouldn't be able to keep up. We have centaurs and gerbils, we're not talking realism here.

 

There have been plenty of ways to fight the zerg in the past, generally because they're usually extremely unorganized. When I see a zerg, I think easy kills at their back quarter.

 

p.s. You'll never stop the zerg. They'll always find a way unless you make grouping so awful, that no one wants to do it. This kills ze game.

Good points.

I guess that's also where the strength of small groups will lie in this game, picking of the backlines of zerg armies.

 

Guerilla tactics might come in handy.


"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

A solid quote, I'd say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it is a hard call in a game like this with full looting to allow one to two shot kills.

 

Honestly, no caps on area-of-effect spells should be enough, though I do like the idea of a multiplier.

 

A bonus for the other team being stupid enough to stack up and a bonus for placing your area-of-effect spells appropriately.

 

Perhaps a flat damage on one player, and with two, now you are hitting at 1.05%, and an additonal .05% for each additional body in the area.

 

It actually encourages better tactics and allows smaller groups a chance against larger ones without changing the dynamic of the gameplay.

 

We need fights to have longer play in a game like this because it is more fun for those involved. UO was extremely deadly... I could three shot some folks, but only the worst of them or those surprised. We want people to have a chance to show skill and survive as well.

 

Oh the delicate balance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Generalized two/one shots, or AoE's doing more damage per target hit doesn't sound right to me. Maybe the occasional chain lightning and other jumping or spreading effects (diseases?) could exploit the Zerg and dish out massive damage that wouldn't happen in smaller skirmishes.

 

I could see siege weapons, minefields, fire, plagued cows... or massive spells/rituals because fantasy... being used in large scale battles, to great effectiveness against an unorganized Zerg, and more easily countered by an organised party. You could ensure these being balanced by making them far to costly for just a few players to pull off.

Edited by Krethys

oiPOxr.jpg

Proud Member of KDS -

Recruitment Post - Visit us at www.kdsguild.org

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One shots would be *gasp* random. Not something you can *do*. Yes, I know people hate RNG. But there's so much random in real life, the only way to recreate it in a game is to whip up some RNG.

 

Suckingdoge - Yes for alchemists fire and creating a catapult, etc. but flights of arrows were much more common and had the same effect. Making large numbers of combatants incapacitated.

 

Freeze - Oh, I agree. Dodge mechanics, blocking, etc. can increase TTK and, IMO, should be the primary way to do it, not health. But none of those do much good for you when a nuke goes off in the middle of a crowd.

 

Primal - only partially. Plenty of games I played with no pocket healer and combat would still take fricking forever compared to "real life". It is a conscious choice in development and one I hope CF avoids. Yes there have plenty of ways to fight the Zerg, but they all were overcome by a bigger Zerg. This one makes it so the bigger the Zerg, the more damage it takes. Guerilla tactics are always useful and, as I stated, real tactics is how you would win in a system like this, rather than just more bodies.

 

Adall - Yes, it is a hard call, but they seem prepared to make them, no? I like your modifications. To be honest, I hadn't put much thought into the math, I'm more of a big idea guy and I let the people who know what they're doing crunch the numbers. "Longer" is a very relative term. I'd be find with 2 or 3 minutes, 10 minutes is moronic.

 

Krethys - Yes, these types of attacks would have to be costly. Like I said, this would be a well prepared and defended fortification. Not a skirmish. One and two shots, as stated above, would be random, not a skill you could master. In the Zerg fights, it wouldn't really be a "one shot" it would just be such a large modifier that it does enough to kill you. See, it's not a skill or something you can get good at, it is a function of the situation.

 

That said, I do believe in some level of RNG in small skirmishes and one-on-one as well. Even the best warrior in the world could get killed by a farmer if his foot slipped in the mud at the wrong time.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JamesGoblin is liking my posts. Does that mean I'm destined to have my own podcast?

LOL


☆ We are in a positive posting drought, so just post. Be the change you want the forums to be. Go wild. Just follow your positive posting star. ☆
☆:*´¨`*:.•.¸¸.•´¯`•.♥.•´¯`•.¸¸.•..:*´¨`*:.☆

(¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯) Member of the Pro-ACE Club (¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason why people generally aren't a fan of "RNG one shot mechanics" is because it removes control from you as the player.  There's nothing you can do to avoid/improve/change what happened.  There's no skill you can work on and no tactics you can deploy except don't be where you were and hope that fixes things in the future. 

 

If enough RNG happens eventually players will trickle out (attrition).  Whether you are a fan of Diablo 3 or not the RNG affixes at launch (and even up until the first expansion) deterred many normal folks from doing hardcore mode.  One death and your character was dead.  I'd seen the stories of uncontrollable one shot mechanics and impossible combos of affixes wiping out people.  So until the developers refined those affixes better they continued to bleed users in that aspect of gameplay.

 

And while RNG may happen in real life that's not a reason to include it my game which I use to escape real life :P

 

I think heavy penalties or debuffs might be a good comprise to your idea not just one shots.  Still let the PVP happen.  Much easier to take out a zerg if they're all slowed by 50% movement speed/attack speed.  Fish in a barrel eh?

Edited by sardoni

mael4.jpg


Been around the MMO Block...


Sardoni

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are a lot better ways to combat zergs than to make TTK ridiculously low(arguably a worse 'feature' than zerging). I'm also highly doubtful of it's actual usefulness in reality as low TTK works in the favor of zergs as well, simply having more people means you will have more chances to have some kind of RNG spike in your favor and take out enemy combatants. Archeage is a good example of extremely low TTK and how it did absolutely nothing to abolish the zergs, but rather reinforce them.


Member of The BlackHand Order

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RNG and Personal Skill is like oil and water. They do not mix.

 

RNG is really a dice roll and gambling on that. Man it's just so tricky to balance something like RNG. Used on things like passives and it might encourage people to build cookie cutter like throwing most points into critical chance just so they can get burst damage at a consistent rate. When you play action paced games, like a shooter, you don't introduce RNG to recoil and pray that you hit your targets maybe 30% of the time. Recoil kicks in based on rate of fire alone and that feels natural. Your bullets aren't hitting in a straight constant line. I would expect the same for an action focused PvP where you swing and miss based on distance and position. If they're claiming Crowfall to be more action oriented, then I hope that is what they'll focus on. Ontop of dodge with dashing and jumping, some things like block or parries would be interesting to allow a sense of timing, mobility, and application. although I'm sure that's more complex and difficult to implement but it would be much better off for it in the long run than having to rely on something that feels more artificial and gamey like RNG. If it's somewhat in the vein of Mount and Blade maybe? Like really loosely inspired. Just a thought. I'd love to hear yours on that aspect.

 

I understand that RNG is practical when you play tabletop games and it's a core feature in card games, and that's a good thing. You're not really doing anything else with these cards or pieces on the board, they're passive and they stay there so they need a little something to kick things off. In more traditional MMOs or CORPGs as well, the mechanics are so vastly different because they involve staticism of your character being in one place and that's a passivity of its own. You're deciding on skills or spells to use on your opponent and you're seeing how much damage you're doing for every turn you make and vice versa. You could compare older Final Fantasy to Kingdom Hearts for a better picture, albeit a crude one.

 

However in more modern MMOs as the trend is going.. you're being so actively participant as you control your avatar in an MMO, you want to be rewarded for reading your opponent right and being in the right position, and be punished for your missteps, being out of position. That's only fair right? RNG only brings such a distaste to that because you could outdance, outshine your opponent and pretty much are outpacing him and overwhelming him, but suddenly your opponent throws a spell or an attack and that crits you out because he had better numbers.. Your personal skills were irrelevant because he got lucky, simply got lucky on numbers. I would rather say "nice hit" or "nice shot" instead of "lucky hit" or "lucky shot." It sounds way more less condescending at that don't it? I've seen how communities react to RNG compared to ones that are outskilled. The resentment and bile is unreal.

 

We'd have to know what kind of combat is being developed in Crowfall and the extent of it to see how zerg behavior and pattern is affected. We only have the basis to compare older MMOs on currently, so it's extremely difficult to say what zergs or players will really do. Impossible even. And if we fall back on older MMO systems to compare, it's really a headache because you have to dismantle every system that's involved in that MMO to a basic level. It's really like assembling a car engine together. We don't even have a blueprint to go off on, just a little napkin doodle of the potential. Not only that, who would honestly want to compare with older MMOs? Why not actually go in a new direction, it really does tire me out. What I do know based on past experience however is zergs are rewarded, as some people have mentioned in the thread, firehose healing, no fear of consequences, and actually...RNG. The more people in that cluster, the higher chance that some person will throw off a crit to dislodge another zerg and move forward. Even critical heals acts as an RNG to make zergs all the luckier in staying power.

 

In fact, zerg feels like it has a negative connotation because you get a sense of a mindless disorganized mass of brute force that rely on numbers for a better CHANCE outcome. It would be really nice to do away with the "zerg" connotation and mentality and replace that with "armies". And if personal skills factor into that, then you feel like you're in an army, contributing to a mission and being active instead of being lumped into one blob. Your commander tells you and your group to go defend the gates while archers are lobbing projectiles from the towers, instead of people just going "Lol custard it, just occupy any space and just make sure there's more of us there.". You'd have a much greater sense of purpose and tactical feeling, and that guides a direction, essentially making you an army. If you introduce tactical action that rewards personal skills, your large group becomes an efficient machine instead of a swarm designed to banzai wave constantly. You punish the carelessness and recklessness of zerging with tactical action and skills and force players to have a pardigm shift to find the better approach to many situations. There's a middle ground somewhere, there has to be.

 

(Basically, I mean if you realize that zerging is more of an action and tactic rather than a large group of people. In certain historical shooters, this is actually a tactical action and conscious choice that involves a crowd of people, not that IS a group of people. If Crowfall can MAKE that an action and tactic then that's kind of a success in my eyes. It could be a cheap tactic in an act of sheer desperation to break a hold. It's kind of sad that we have to automatically think that if there's 100+ people in an area, that's a zerg entity instead of simply an army. That's how bad MMOs have yanked players around when it comes to large scale PVP.)

 

I don't know if you saw the video, but I saw a knight knocking an enemy off a bridge with an AoE spell of some sort. If you can use positional based CC skills like that AS a UTILITY rather than a spammy mechanic to press over and over, it might shake things up because that's all relative to timing, placement, and application which = personal skills. You don't land a headshot by praying to an RNG god in a shooter. You take your time and wait for the best clear shot to happen, sometimes you miss, sometimes you land it and that factor had to do with your personal timing and aiming skills and your relative position on the map, and how you applied it.

 

Regarding Time to Kill, mobility does a great amount of deal with that. The problem with ArcheAge and most MMOs is the tab targeting system, and that in ArcheAge, even if I backflip to dodge, the spell will hone on me like a missile just because of the last range I was at, not during the moment I was ejecting. That's so lame.

 

If you ever played SMITE, mobility is a HUGE factor in buying time. You're about to die? You can pretty much zig zag or spin and cut right inside your attacker, confusing the hell out of them. This is called a Juke. You juke your foes and they can't attack you because they expected you to go in one direction but you went full 180 and they don't have their skillshot ability or basic slashing attack lined up with you. So this starts a benny hill chase sequence where you're ducking into different areas and it buys SO much time that your teammates already show up to land a CC on them, allowing you to escape. Add in a dash or jump, that's like a free dodge. Even in SMITE there are attacking abilities that you can use as an escape, like Serqet's Deathbane, Ne Zha's Wind Fire Wheels, Athena's Preemptive Strike, etc.

 

I mean if Crowfall can ensure that archtypes have a gap-closer that isn't a target lock, like a tab system required, then it'll be just fine to use these gap closers to escape as well, which will buy players borrowed time, increasses their chances of survivability. Can't exactly "one-shot" something you can't catch, if that's even feasible. If it works perfectly in SMITE, why not in an MMO?

 

Just my 2 cents, feel free to tell me how dead wrong I am :)

Edited by Lastboy

The most important thing is to enjoy your life - to be happy - it's all that matters. - Audrey Hepburn “:♡.•♬✧⁽⁽ଘ( ˊᵕˋ )ଓ⁾⁾*+:•*∴
Read more at brainyquote.com/search_results.html#KTJ4dHyeiltlKOTM.99

mz_Yr9k_I.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the idea though I have one problem with it.

 

The reason these AoE things are so strong in real life is because they require a lot of knowledge and time to build and opperate.

To create the kind of fire you speak of in medieval times required a genius.

 

For this reason, AoE would be a bit too strong in most cases.

 

I think it's just a matter of balance.

Trying to find the right amount of health points vs the right amount of damage.

 

I do agree however that players in Crowfall should be squishier than in most other MMORPG's.

Not just because it would be more realistic but more because the players in other MMO's are usually unbelievably tanky.

With the right equipment .... in my old favorite game you could migitate 99,99% of the damage. And reduce it to 1 minimum damage.

 

It would require one to have an set of equipment, worth nearly every bit of digital coin.

But it was doable ...

 

In the end someone who had a GoldenThiefBug card or the Monks special skill which increases the defense.

Could tank a whole army of pvper solo in Ragnarok Online xD.

 

I like squishy characters more. Realistic.. nope.

We just need the right balance.

 

I don't want to experience a second "gear war".

It was only funny if you knew how to kill people in their suits.

 

Got a Ghostring card, which makes you invunerable to nomral damage?

-Blast him with fire or Ghost element attacks!

Got absurdely high Defense?

-get an weapon that ignores that or even makes you do more damage on them!

 

xD i loved RO for these differences.

One could beat a fully packed and stuffed PvPer, with knowledge in the end.

Still i don't want to see 2 Crusaders kill each other .. 12k HP, self heal and massive def ... I think when we did a joke match on a guild meet up, our leader called it a draw after 30 minutes. And one of them complained .. "Look, his HP are down 3 more points!!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fighting the zerg by making TTK low will totally work. I lot of people won't play.

 

This is literally the worst antizerg suggestion posted so far. Wreck all of the game's combat from tiny skirmishs up to major battles. In return really bad zergs get killed and the ones with two brain cells split up a bit. Either that or you didn't really mean it when you said short TTK was a good idea.

 

 

The lack of tab targetting, non-ghost PCs and friendly fire all do a much better job. Any additional antizerg can be handled by avoidable debuffs like a spreading disease. Good players will mitigate it be not spreading the disease. Bad ones will get dead. More counterplay than just ramping up the damage, similar effect.


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Friendly Fire and Real Physics will to a lot to stop zergs. When you have 20-30 people in 1 spot tring to attack the same direction it is going to be bad. You cannot run through each other so you will have to line up and you could hit someone running in front of you. I just don't see zerging as being as big of a deal really.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...