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borbor

Ships?

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Maybe somebody already suggested this or it is already planned, but i just want to say having Ships in the game would be infinitely cool as it would add a whole new layer to combat. Also, PIRATES!

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Why not? Adding seas to world generator algoritm is much easier then other parts (mountains,forests etc). And it could open whole next level of gameplay with alot of extra additions. Its one of those things where you spend x time and you get 5x rewards. Making it wont be easy, but the results are going to be legandary.

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Why not? Adding seas to world generator algoritm is much easier then other parts (mountains,forests etc). And it could open whole next level of gameplay with alot of extra additions. Its one of those things where you spend x time and you get 5x rewards. Making it wont be easy, but the results are going to be legandary.

 

As more and more features are added to a game, each core system gets less refinement. I'd rather have less features and more solid core gameplay than attempting to pile on more features just for fluff. Ships are a good idea, just not initially.

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As more and more features are added to a game, each core system gets less refinement. I'd rather have less features and more solid core gameplay than attempting to pile on more features just for fluff. Ships are a good idea, just not initially.

I was thinking more than an "additional feature" ships could become one of the core systems for campaign. Because implementing such system afterwards would require alot of chances. 

 

Building cities near oceans ;

  • Advantage of sea-control
  • New trading possibilities, increasing the economy of the city and making it more valuable

 

  • - Easier to siege from sea

 

What falls to us is to make suggestions, im sure artcraft will consider the economic and possibility part of these suggestions, after all , they have much more experiance in the field then either of us.

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I was thinking more than an "additional feature" ships could become one of the core systems for campaign. Because implementing such system afterwards would require alot of chances. 

 

Building cities near oceans ;

  • Advantage of sea-control
  • New trading possibilities, increasing the economy of the city and making it more valuable

 

  • - Easier to siege from sea

 

What falls to us is to make suggestions, im sure artcraft will consider the economic and possibility part of these suggestions, after all , they have much more experiance in the field then either of us.

 

If I wasn't clear, I am also referring to core systems as features. Adding ship combat would (off the top of my head) require the following:

 

-Advanced water textures and effects

-Ship models and physics (including interaction objects such as ladders and a wheel and ship destruction via Voxelfarm)

-Design time spent balancing different ships

-Design time spent figuring out jobs on ships

-Port buildings.

-Sound Effects

 

Right there, with a decent art team you're looking at 5-8 months of development time spent just creating the assets. In addition, the design team would need to take into account the effect sea combat would have on the overall meta. Why would people participate in it? It has game economy impact.

 

Each and every hour of the team spent on this idea is one less hour they would have to lock-in the Archetype balance, progression meta, crafting system, siege system, gameplay systems, and EK management.

 

TL;DR: It's too much development time for a specific system. I'd much rather the team keep it simple and focus on the core elements of the game.

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If I wasn't clear, I am also referring to core systems as features. Adding ship combat would (off the top of my head) require the following:

 

-Advanced water textures and effects

-Ship models and physics (including interaction objects such as ladders and a wheel and ship destruction via Voxelfarm)

-Design time spent balancing different ships

-Design time spent figuring out jobs on ships

-Port buildings.

-Sound Effects

 

Right there, with a decent art team you're looking at 5-8 months of development time spent just creating the assets. In addition, the design team would need to take into account the effect sea combat would have on the overall meta. Why would people participate in it? It has game economy impact.

 

Each and every hour of the team spent on this idea is one less hour they would have to lock-in the Archetype balance, progression meta, crafting system, siege system, gameplay systems, and EK management.

 

TL;DR: It's too much development time for a specific system. I'd much rather the team keep it simple and focus on the core elements of the game.

Well, water is mostly a simple thing to add. Using shaders is what makes water look so beautiful, a very little effort for water with waves+reflections.

 

Ship models could take some time, depends on how fast they can make it, considering ships could play such a great role i  think its worth it. Physics wont be a problem. VoxelFarm will handlle it.

 

Design time spent balancing different ships

Design time spent figuring out jobs on ships

Port buildings.

This does not have to work like that, they can make it so people construct their own ships. Which also eliminates the factor of need to 'balance' ships, as it will be players crafting skills that determine which ship is stronger.

 

Same goes for ports,  let players construct it. No need to spend hours on designing diffrent variations of ports.

 

Unless either of us worked as lead game designer for an MMO, its imposible for us to predict the time it would take. In my opinion it would take no longer then a month maximum to get everything about ships running. To be honest i would trade initial Archetype balance and EK management for such a great addition. They will eventually balance Archetypes and meta game, they will eventually improve crafting.

 

Designing ships as part of the initial game is going to be much easier then implementing them afterwards, which in long turn could cause more problems.

 

This is why i made this comment ;

What falls to us is to make suggestions, im sure artcraft will consider the economic and possibility part of these suggestions, after all , they have much more experiance in the field then either of us.

Edited by Eren

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Well, water is mostly a simple thing to add. Using shaders is what makes water look so beautiful, a very little effort for water with waves+reflections.

 

Ship models could take some time, depends on how fast they can make it, considering ships could play such a great role i  think its worth it. Physics wont be a problem. VoxelFarm will handlle it.

 

Design time spent balancing different ships

Design time spent figuring out jobs on ships

Port buildings.

This does not have to work like that, they can make it so people construct their own ships. Which also eliminates the factor of need to 'balance' ships, as it will be players crafting skills that determine which ship is stronger.

 

Same goes for ports,  let players construct it. No need to spend hours on designing diffrent variations of ports.

 

Unless either of us worked as lead game designer for an MMO, its imposible for us to predict the time it would take. In my opinion it would take no longer then a month maximum to get everything about ships running. To be honest i would trade initial Archetype balance and EK management for such a great addition. They will eventually balance Archetypes and meta game, they will eventually improve crafting.

 

Designing ships as part of the initial game is going to be much easier then implementing them afterwards, which in long turn could cause more problems.

 

This is why i made this comment ;

What falls to us is to make suggestions, im sure artcraft will consider the economic and possibility part of these suggestions, after all , they have much more experiance in the field then either of us.

 

I don't work as a lead, but I have worked as a game designer on several projects.

 

Your point about constructing ships is also incorrect. It actually takes MORE work to put the power of building in players hands. Because you DO still have to balance it. You also have to model each individual component and then construct/predict what players will do with it. It's a ton more work than just creating ONE ship model.

 

Notice on the subject of ports I also said port BUILDINGS. As in Docks, etc. I don't really know how you're interpreting what voxel farm can do. But I highly doubt Crowfall is going to work like Minecraft, where you can just shove pieces together. (at least on that micro a scale)

 

Also, your assumption of water is incorrect as well. If you have to create any kind of ocean physics, you're dealing with a real-time rendering mesh to simulate waves. Otherwise you're just cruising on a flat surface. Which is bad for any kind of ship meta you want to create.

 

I reiterate my point: It's too much development time.

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I don't work as a lead, but I have worked as a game designer on several projects.

 

Your point about constructing ships is also incorrect. It actually takes MORE work to put the power of building in players hands. Because you DO still have to balance it. You also have to model each individual component and then construct/predict what players will do with it. It's a ton more work than just creating ONE ship model.

 

Notice on the subject of ports I also said port BUILDINGS. As in Docks, etc. I don't really know how you're interpreting what voxel farm can do. But I highly doubt Crowfall is going to work like Minecraft, where you can just shove pieces together. (at least on that micro a scale)

 

Also, your assumption of water is incorrect as well. If you have to create any kind of ocean physics, you're dealing with a real-time rendering mesh to simulate waves. Otherwise you're just cruising on a flat surface. Which is bad for any kind of ship meta you want to create.

 

I reiterate my point: It's too much development time.

Balance what? Kind of ships people can build? No, you just give players the necessary tools and it falls to them to build better ships. Just like how it works in real life.

You also have to model each individual component and then construct/predict what players will do with it. It's a ton more work than just creating ONE ship model.

One ship perhaps, but doing it that way will give players capacity to build infinitely different ships.So its definently worth the effort. After all, all you have to write is simple algoritm that checks center of weight and bottom of to ship to determine how welll it will ride. And you can also add a bit complex algoritm to determine speed of ship by its sails, direction of sails , direction and strength of wind.

 

Notice on the subject of ports I also said port BUILDINGS. As in Docks, etc. I don't really know how you're interpreting what voxel farm can do. But I highly doubt Crowfall is going to work like Minecraft, where you can just shove pieces together. (at least on that micro a scale)

Design a simple wood road that can be placed on water that is close to ground. Thats all thats needed for port's (At least for the initial release, everyone will be happy with it)

 

Also, your assumption of water is incorrect as well. If you have to create any kind of ocean physics, you're dealing with a real-time rendering mesh to simulate waves. Otherwise you're just cruising on a flat surface. Which is bad for any kind of ship meta you want to create.

I never talked about ocean physics? You claimed "advanced water textures" and i said that water does not need textures, all it needs is proper reflections.

Lets be honest no computer here can support proper ocean physics.. Waves are just going to be pre-coded things. VoxelFarm can be used for this case, if they make wave as combination of many weak voxels and im sure voxelfarm already calculates momentum etc, it will automatically work.

 

VoxelFarm is going to come more handy in ship vs ship battles. Properly reflecting damage.

 

And im still pretty sure even with your experiance, you are nowhere near ArtCraft's level (I made this claim, by checking your age). They already worked on very big projects and have years of experiance. Im sure they wont have problems determining whether ships are worth the time or not.

 

Check this video for how voxelfarm is useful in this situation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUO_A9I3GUQ

 

I knew people that could build titanicly sized ships inside minecraft in matter of weeks. I dont think its going to take 5-8 months of an good art team. Woods for ground of ships, ropes, sails , flags(which can simple use guild icons) , heavy wood for outer part of the ship(should be bendable on the crafting stage), windows(which probably already exist), the thing they put in front of ship. Something to chance direction of the ship in back of the ship.

 

And from here it can be improved with extra stuff, diffrent ropes, new woods etc. But this is all you need for initial release.

Edited by Eren

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I love the idea of being able to command and crew large vehicles like ships in an online game and then battle and sink other players' ships with mine.

 

Maybe some campaign settings that consist of islands, have larger than normal amounts of loot to collect but force players to put most of it to work building bigger, more powerful ships; well, I guess they could just play lean and hoard all the resources in embargo instead of making ships with them, but they'd be steamrolled by people who actually played the campaign mode as it was meant to be played.

 

The whole idea sounds like tons of fun and if it's not already in... possible stretch goal, perhaps? :)

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Balance what? Kind of ships people can build? No, you just give players the necessary tools and it falls to them to build better ships. Just like how it works in real life.

You also have to model each individual component and then construct/predict what players will do with it. It's a ton more work than just creating ONE ship model.

One ship perhaps, but doing it that way will give players capacity to build infinitely different ships.So its definently worth the effort. After all, all you have to write is simple algoritm that checks center of weight and bottom of to ship to determine how welll it will ride. And you can also add a bit complex algoritm to determine speed of ship by its sails, direction of sails , direction and strength of wind.

 

Notice on the subject of ports I also said port BUILDINGS. As in Docks, etc. I don't really know how you're interpreting what voxel farm can do. But I highly doubt Crowfall is going to work like Minecraft, where you can just shove pieces together. (at least on that micro a scale)

Design a simple wood road that can be placed on water that is close to ground. Thats all thats needed for port's (At least for the initial release, everyone will be happy with it)

 

Also, your assumption of water is incorrect as well. If you have to create any kind of ocean physics, you're dealing with a real-time rendering mesh to simulate waves. Otherwise you're just cruising on a flat surface. Which is bad for any kind of ship meta you want to create.

I never talked about ocean physics? You claimed "advanced water textures" and i said that water does not need textures, all it needs is proper reflections.

Lets be honest no computer here can support proper ocean physics.. Waves are just going to be pre-coded things. VoxelFarm can be used for this case, if they make wave as combination of many weak voxels and im sure voxelfarm already calculates momentum etc, it will automatically work.

 

VoxelFarm is going to come more handy in ship vs ship battles. Properly reflecting damage.

 

And im still pretty sure even with your experiance, you are nowhere near ArtCraft's level (I made this claim, by checking your age). They already worked on very big projects and have years of experiance. Im sure they wont have problems determining whether ships are worth the time or not.

 

Check this video for how voxelfarm is useful in this situation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUO_A9I3GUQ

 

I knew people that could build titanicly sized ships inside minecraft in matter of weeks. I dont think its going to take 5-8 months of an good art team. Woods for ground of ships, ropes, sails , flags(which can simple use guild icons) , heavy wood for outer part of the ship(should be bendable on the crafting stage), windows(which probably already exist), the thing they put in front of ship. Something to chance direction of the ship in back of the ship.

 

And from here it can be improved with extra stuff, diffrent ropes, new woods etc. But this is all you need for initial release.

 

Good video. Also don't get me wrong. I'm not claiming ANYWHERE near the level of experience anyone at ACE has. I just know from experience in the pits how much effort it takes just to build basic systems, let alone extrapolate that into an MMO playspace, where you have hundreds of systems interacting on a regular basis. All it takes is one out of whack and suddenly your game suffers for it.

 

I still disagree with your point that bit-part ship design should be Laissez-faire. A completely hands off system almost always ends up with one build that far outstrips the rest which everyone then copies, completely negating the point of the system anyways.

 

I agree with you ship combat would be a cool feature. (Hell, in ArcheAge it was the ONLY feature I enjoyed)

 

If it catches the developer eye so be it. MMO's just have a habit of biting off way more than they can chew. I'd rather see the devs keep it as KISS as possible.

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Good video. Also don't get me wrong. I'm not claiming ANYWHERE near the level of experience anyone at ACE has. I just know from experience in the pits how much effort it takes just to build basic systems, let alone extrapolate that into an MMO playspace, where you have hundreds of systems interacting on a regular basis. All it takes is one out of whack and suddenly your game suffers for it.

 

I still disagree with your point that bit-part ship design should be Laissez-faire. A completely hands off system almost always ends up with one build that far outstrips the rest which everyone then copies, completely negating the point of the system anyways.

 

I agree with you ship combat would be a cool feature. (Hell, in ArcheAge it was the ONLY feature I enjoyed)

 

If it catches the developer eye so be it. MMO's just have a habit of biting off way more than they can chew. I'd rather see the devs keep it as KISS as possible.

Well, have you played robocraft ? It uses a similiar system and many few people copy the "best" ship kind of thing. Because generally, every robot ends up with having a weak spot, copying the "best" one ends up people instantly recognizing your ships weak spot and focusing their fire on there. Pretty fun game i advice anyone to play that one :P

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