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Xris

Flying

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Define "flight".

 

The unlimited or at least very long duration kind?

Short answer: No!

Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! This pretty much killed what precious little world PvP there was in WoW and I couldn't name any other game where I thought this system was a good idea.

 

 

A limited kind, either gliding or flight with a short duration?

Sure, works if it is balanced well.

I liked how it worked in ArcheAge, actually that is one of the very few things in that game I considered good (the class system being the other one).


Constant optimism will not solve your problems,


but it will annoy enough people to be worth the effort.

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I have never liked flying in a game as it make the world feel small and destroys most ground tactics.  I however would not mind a flying race like Shadow Bane had.

 

Although I understand the arument that flying could ruin PvP in siegecombat, I do think it is possible to make flying viable outside the non-pvp eternal kingdoms.

 

For example long range anti-air weapons could make an effective barrier around i.e. castles. I'm not sure the world need to feel small either, procedural generatet worlds could be huge indeed.

 

Another idea is to make entire campaign worlds around flying. Think floating islands, flying creatures (huge dragons?!) and valuable gases to be gathered.

Edited by Xris

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Define "flight".

 

The unlimited or at least very long duration kind?

Short answer: No!

Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! This pretty much killed what precious little world PvP there was in WoW and I couldn't name any other game where I thought this system was a good idea.

 

 

A limited kind, either gliding or flight with a short duration?

Sure, works if it is balanced well.

I liked how it worked in ArcheAge, actually that is one of the very few things in that game I considered good (the class system being the other one).

 

Actually ShadowBane had an excellent flying system. Flying consumed stamina, and while potions and spells could help maintain your stamina, it always ran out except under very specific situations (power level group using a Warlock). In those cases, the Warlock was always visible, had to fly low (Maximum of flight level 3 so the AoE spells would work), and was locked into a specific casting pattern to kill/aggro mobs and steal stamina from them. If interrupted or there were not enough mobs, he would eventually land and be killed (which Scouts loved to do, especially if the whole group was AFK).

 

In general, the balance between flying and it's counter skills (Grounding shot from Bow or Crossbow, Roar, and Stuns) was actually very good in ShadowBane and not overpowered. It did however, allow for a wider range of builds and play styles (which is always a good thing).

Edited by Dakyn

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Apparently you never played Shadowbane.

Ah? Aracoixbane! Back then, if you were not a flier, you needed magic or a bow. Really sucked for Melee characters who were stuck, fighting from and on the ground. Made for a lot of one-sided fights, later on.

 

Flight? Encouraging builds and play-styles? Disagree and for the above reasons stated. I should not fully need wings, bow or magic to be competitive and effective in Crowfall.

 

Am all for diversity and roles. Just don't want to be too pigeon-holed into my choices by game mechanics.

 

The closest thing to flying will probably be Faes gliding from wherever they can glide from... or quite possibly when someone is being knocked off a drawbridge or wall... maybe even from being lobbed over a city wall via catapult. Like that one best. :)


"Signals, Sound off Plates and Greaves! Line up! Prepare to advance!"

- Saying things a Centaur Legionnaire likes to hear.

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Ah? Aracoixbane! Back then, if you were not a flier, you needed magic or a bow. Really sucked for Melee characters who were stuck, fighting from and on the ground. Made for a lot of one-sided fights, later on.

 

Flight? Encouraging builds and play-styles? Disagree and for the above reasons stated. I should not fully need wings, bow or magic to be competitive and effective in Crowfall.

 

Am all for diversity and roles. Just don't want to be too pigeon-holed into my choices by game mechanics.

 

The closest thing to flying will probably be Faes gliding from wherever they can glide from... or quite possibly when someone is being knocked off a drawbridge or wall... maybe even from being lobbed over a city wall via catapult. Like that one best. :)

 

If you ever flew with an Aracoix to PvP you ran out of Stamina very quickly and would end up getting rekt. If you're gonna try to bash flying at least use a different class.. Perma fly warlocks, wizards and furies with stam drain/heal..  Not every class should be equal. Learn to play and don't suck that's the point. I very seldomly  ran into a situation where I couldn't ground (force flyers to land with a skill) or run away. If I'm running away they usually couldn't cast.. eventually they woudl run out of Mana or Stamina and get rekt or you got away when they had to steam heal. If you really had a problem with flyers in Shadowbane you were just a bad player.

 

With that mentality we shouldn't have stealth either because not all classes can reveal stealth right? GTFO

 

The only time you had one sided fights was maybe at server up before people could train grounding skills.. "LATER ON" you never had a disadvantage vs flying classes if you knew how to play the game and had a decent group of friends to play with.

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I'm apprehensive about flying as I've seen it been detrimental to gameplay in so many other games.

That being said, we really should define what form of flying we are discussing here:

 

 

1) Indefinite flying (mount)

In my mind, this is the big offender: Giving the player the ability to fly always, everywhere, at any time, takes away a lot of challenge otherwise encountered.

For example:

> Avoiding other players.

> Avoiding obstacles in the world, player built or naturally occurring (Fortifications, rivers, forests, etc).

> Removes any sense of scale (world seems objectively smaller from up in the air).

> When everybody gets to fly, eventually a significant portion of the players will be up in the air and the world will seem empty and dead, Eventually, the air will be the defacto "safe" zone where everybody avoids each other. 

 

2) Gliding

In my opinion, this is nothing more then a gimmick, does not really add to gameplay and is unneeded in many respects.

The upside is, it can be given to all characters without compromising too much of core gameplay.

I personally always ask myself: Does gliding give me a more interesting experience in achieving my goal then I would get by footslogging toward my objective?

To me, the answer is no: I might get there faster and sometimes it's more convenient, but that doesn't make it more interesting.

 

 

3) Part-time flying

Now here is an interesting one.

Should there be flying in Crowfall, this is the one I'd prefer to see it make into the game.

Personally I don't care for the Assassin archetype, but I feel flying should be limited to the Fae only (see my objection "when everybody gets to fly" at point 1 to see why): And she should be restricted in how much or how far she can fly.

I can see a system where her flying is stamina-based.

This way, she get's to make a decision: Do I fly a long way and potentially will have less offensive power before regenerating my stamina on landing? Or do I fly in a quick burst and retain some reasonable combat-potential?  

Personally, if there MUST be flying, to me this looks the most interesting way to go about it.

 

 

As always,

 

Just my 2c

Edited by Heriot

~Strategy is the art of making use of time and space.
I'm less concerned about the latter than the former: Space we can recover, lost time never.

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If you ever flew with an Aracoix to PvP you ran out of Stamina very quickly and would end up getting rekt. If you're gonna try to bash flying at least use a different class.. Perma fly warlocks, wizards and furies with stam drain/heal..  Not every class should be equal. Learn to play and don't suck that's the point. I very seldomly  ran into a situation where I couldn't ground (force flyers to land with a skill) or run away. If I'm running away they usually couldn't cast.. eventually they woudl run out of Mana or Stamina and get rekt or you got away when they had to steam heal. If you really had a problem with flyers in Shadowbane you were just a bad player.

 

With that mentality we shouldn't have stealth either because not all classes can reveal stealth right? GTFO

 

The only time you had one sided fights was maybe at server up before people could train grounding skills.. "LATER ON" you never had a disadvantage vs flying classes if you knew how to play the game and had a decent group of friends to play with.

Bet you never played an Irekei Sundancing Thief all the time. Didn't mind getting kited from the ground. Could at least hit back. Has nothing to do whether I was good or bad. As a Thief I rolled solo a lot and would be engaged by groups. Fighting more than one person in most cases. 1v1s happened. Usually, birdy scouts and thieves. As a cloth wearing proccing Thief, anything ranged would tear me up.

 

You were probably were not on Vindication where the Irekei RPers got rekt. Fliers gave us hard times is the best to say. Not just Aracoix but all flight types.

 

As a Centaur Huntress, used a bow quite a lot. Been in my share of scraps and didn't need a group then either.

 

Mostly used my SD Thief, though. Am sure am not the only one who experienced issues with fliers. Heard others quit playing certain classes due to issues. Some people liked SDs but stopped playing them altogether so it is not me posting about being a special insulted snowflake but rather passing on my thoughts about the subject of Flight and Crowfall.

 

As for my mentality, don't be dragging it into areas Straw Man. The discussion is about Flight and not Stealth.

 

Thanks for dragging your alt account out and for not adding much to the conversation at hand! ;)

 

Good day!

 

*tips her long lance, point ever sharp and ready*


"Signals, Sound off Plates and Greaves! Line up! Prepare to advance!"

- Saying things a Centaur Legionnaire likes to hear.

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Bet you never played an Irekei Sundancing Thief all the time. Didn't mind getting kited from the ground. Could at least hit back. Has nothing to do whether I was good or bad. As a Thief I rolled solo a lot and would be engaged by groups. Fighting more than one person in most cases. 1v1s happened. Usually, birdy scouts and thieves. As a cloth wearing proccing Thief, anything ranged would tear me up.

 

You were probably were not on Vindication where the Irekei RPers got rekt. Fliers gave us hard times is the best to say. Not just Aracoix but all flight types.

 

As a Centaur Huntress, used a bow quite a lot. Been in my share of scraps and didn't need a group then either.

 

Mostly used my SD Thief, though. Am sure am not the only one who experienced issues with fliers. Heard others quit playing certain classes due to issues. Some people liked SDs but stopped playing them altogether so it is not me posting about being a special insulted snowflake but rather passing on my thoughts about the subject of Flight and Crowfall.

 

As for my mentality, don't be dragging it into areas Straw Man. The discussion is about Flight and not Stealth.

 

Thanks for dragging your alt account out and for not adding much to the conversation at hand! ;)

 

Good day!

 

*tips her long lance, point ever sharp and ready*

 

ShadowBane was always fairly "rock, paper, scissors" with regard to builds. No matter what you made, it was always possible to come up with another template that it would be weak against.

 

As an Irekei Sundancing Thief you should have had a really high Dexterity and Dodge ability. All you would need to do is go into Defense stance. With a highly trained Dodge 1/3 of the shots at you would miss (unless they used weapon powers but that would drain their stam even faster). Any flyer would have run out of stam before you died and so they would end up grounding themselves and you could kill them easy then.

 

Unarmed Sundancers were pretty badass.

Edited by Dakyn

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Bet you never played an Irekei Sundancing Thief all the time. Didn't mind getting kited from the ground. Could at least hit back. Has nothing to do whether I was good or bad. As a Thief I rolled solo a lot and would be engaged by groups. Fighting more than one person in most cases. 1v1s happened. Usually, birdy scouts and thieves. As a cloth wearing proccing Thief, anything ranged would tear me up.

 

You were probably were not on Vindication where the Irekei RPers got rekt. Fliers gave us hard times is the best to say. Not just Aracoix but all flight types.

 

As a Centaur Huntress, used a bow quite a lot. Been in my share of scraps and didn't need a group then either.

 

Mostly used my SD Thief, though. Am sure am not the only one who experienced issues with fliers. Heard others quit playing certain classes due to issues. Some people liked SDs but stopped playing them altogether so it is not me posting about being a special insulted snowflake but rather passing on my thoughts about the subject of Flight and Crowfall.

 

As for my mentality, don't be dragging it into areas Straw Man. The discussion is about Flight and not Stealth.

 

Thanks for dragging your alt account out and for not adding much to the conversation at hand! ;)

 

Good day!

 

*tips her long lance, point ever sharp and ready*

 

I played a Aracoix thief almost exclusively when I wasn't playing a spec toon. Yeah it was annoying when I'd be out alone and a bird scout would just ground me.. when I'd try to fly toward him/her. But that's why thieves were NEVER allowed to be at banes unless they served a utility and/or used bows that could what?? Hit people that could fly. 

 

If you were a thief you knew what you were in for. The game wasn't unbanaced. There are trade offs. If you make a class that is slow it's custarden s#upid to cry about the fast classes. If you made a class that can't fly everyone else should NOT be forced to only make ground characters because you lack the ability to make the right choice on what fights to engage in.

 

Like Todd said, not all classes are nor should be able to counter every other class and if you ignore this and keep dying then you are a bad player.

Edited by thenebrosity

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lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

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it feels like people are hindered in there opinion on whether flying should be or not by previous experience the only way we will know is once they apply it to a alpha's/beta's. from a wow perspective it ended PvP Aion made PvP more interesting never played SB so cant comment but i feel like throwing about how you should have been better/worse in ur SB role doesnt  much effect the conversation trying to be created here. Look at the concepts in CF see whats aspects could be negative/positive in a debate about flying. We are all hoping for something slightly different of what we have played b4 and are just stupidly excited for a Roaring PvP smash.

 

 

Like Todd said, not all classes are nor should be able to counter every other class and if you ignore this and keep dying then you are a bad player.

 

Thenebrosity is 100% right on this and thats what will make this game exciting. Flying might make it just a that little bit more exciting, IMO im undecided I really would like to test it then make a fully informed decision based on the know effect it would take in CF


Hey just Shout Bremmen and he will, Rise and Destroy the people you wish decimated :o

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ShadowBane was always fairly "rock, paper, scissors" with regard to builds. No matter what you made, it was always possible to come up with another template that it would be weak against.

 

As an Irekei Sundancing Thief you should have had a really high Dexterity and Dodge ability. All you would need to do is go into Defense stance. With a highly trained Dodge 1/3 of the shots at you would miss (unless they used weapon powers but that would drain their stam even faster). Any flyer would have run out of stam before you died and so they would end up grounding themselves and you could kill them easy then.

 

Unarmed Sundancers were pretty badass.

Jha! Bho iko lak tahk!

 

Yes, Shadowbane was very much Rock, Paper, Scissors. A triad, like a Fremen Death-Still, from upon which all things do rest. Was the game to play before Pong. People been PKed back then, too. One of the greatest strengths of Shadowbane was with it's character creation. Was still experimenting with different builds from the start and to the end of the game. Crowfall looks to be very familiar and can't wait to get back in build-mode.

 

Speaking of builds, nice break down of a High D(efensive) SD. Pretty much the way to do it. When possible, liked to use trees and buildings to further Line-Of-Sight issues and keep them burning stam in the air.

 

But... my toon was a Proccer build. High INT , okay CON. Cloth armor for Lore and RP reasons as well to spend points elsewhere. Black Mask, Gladiator, Sun Dancer. Bounty Hunter's Trip was situational dependant and not GM, it did not always serve me well with multiple opponents. Huntsman's Dispel Wereform was fairly handy. On Vindi, we had some great fights with French Werewolves. Bons combats, mes amis!

 

Most SDs went the DEX route. Great defence, better armor values and damage mitigation, better attack rating and damage, plus access to that ever-still-sweet Irekei Leather Armor. Was and is a solid choice, like your scenario and it's sequencing.

 

Wanted to experiment more and play close to the Irekei Sun Dancer Lore. Cloth was a given so like casters (who also wore cloth), it seemed more natural to point INT. That attribute raised all skills and was ever so important for procs. Think my INT was around 120. 110 was solid for proccing. 120 was my last SD Thief and she hit hard... when procs went off, of course.

 

Kept my DEX at 50 so I could take Fleet of Foot rune. Always took it as a Thief. Would sink leftover points into Running skill.

 

Maxxed out Unarmed Combat, Unarmed Mastery, Parry and Dodge. Had to switch it up when SD stopped using UA Mastery and point up SD instead.

 

Another thing about my SD Proccer is that she used Vamp Khans which had a health drain which bypassed passive defence. Just needed to hit. Back in stylecasting days and in Precise stance, could hit anything in the game... not flying which is a topic that is very personal to me, still. Lol. Mostly used Precise and Offensive.

 

Relied on passive defense to buy me time time to either fight or flee. Would only freeze if I got stunned. There were two types of Thieves back then, the quick and the dead. Movement to combat was and is just as important as away from it. Liked to get the fastest attackers to chase me well and far from their group so I could quickly double back and kill. Would waste full groups, one by one this way. Train some mobs on them, to mix things up but I digress.

 

Really hope we see Proccing toons in CrowFall. Am quite sure we will. Character creation looks so familiar and am sure it will have some new ground for us all to check out and enjoy!

 

Sorry for the digression but I hope this discussion from the past helps give some insight and relevancy on character creation and theory-crafting as it relates to CrowFall.

 

Will address the next poster on Flight and my player experience in my next posting... and aim to be back on topic.

Edited by Maxima

"Signals, Sound off Plates and Greaves! Line up! Prepare to advance!"

- Saying things a Centaur Legionnaire likes to hear.

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I played a Aracoix thief almost exclusively when I wasn't playing a spec toon. Yeah it was annoying when I'd be out alone and a bird scout would just ground me.. when I'd try to fly toward him/her. But that's why thieves were NEVER allowed to be at banes unless they served a utility and/or used bows that could what?? Hit people that could fly.

 

If you were a thief you knew what you were in for. The game wasn't unbanaced. There are trade offs. If you make a class that is slow it's custarden s#upid to cry about the fast classes. If you made a class that can't fly everyone else should NOT be forced to only make ground characters because you lack the ability to make the right choice on what fights to engage in.

 

Like Todd said, not all classes are nor should be able to counter every other class and if you ignore this and keep dying then you are a bad player.

Right on, another Fir... Thief! Hail! :)

 

Well-played Scouts were deadly in SB. Scoutbane, on my last server got rather silly, though. FOTM just like how it was Thiefbane prior to that. Was near the start and the end of the game that I was experiencing more issues with fliers. My time on Vindi was as an SD Dragonplated Warrior so disengaging/ heading for the hills was never an option.

 

Must make mention that you are talking from a group/ guild perspective. Was gonna ask "Do you even errant, Bro?" but the game was made for all, whether solo or not. Your mentioning Spec Groups kinda pointed that out to me. Nothing wrong with guilds and groups. Much of my Thieving was done either while errant or under SDR tags. Did guild up a couple of times. Really like what you said about Thieves at banes. So true. The last guild I was in let me roam around with some Scouts and seek/destroy summoners at their assembly areas/ objective rally points.

 

Agree with most of what you wrote except that I was speaking of imbalance (which am sure you read me post in another related thread recently) and not unbalance. Imbalance as it relates to areas of Game Design such as Playability and Player Experience... and not about class balance.

 

Am not demanding class/ archetype privilege and/or entitlement as a means of levelling the playing-field.

 

Not sure but doubt you been around RPers much. Some like to play one character and not roll spec toons, either. Some did not wish to roll, let alone log, a Scout for Grounding. Sometimes, everyone wanted to play their SD until we hit flight then folks would just log off. Some even quit playing their SDs. Not just a class but many classes were SDs.

 

My concern is with Playabilty and how it is factored by Player Experience when using a game system to provide enjoyment and entertainment whether one is solo or in a group.

 

As we have each shared a different perspective and Player Experience, am sure we had different ideas of enjoyment and entertainment.

 

Am just sharing that it was not so entertaining nor enjoyable clicking sprint to bug out. Had mentioned I got tore up by ranged toons but I wasn't stupid enough to stand around and get killed. Skah!

 

Like smart Guerrilas and Unconventional Warfare Fighters, smart Thieves always aim to pick and choose the place of battle... and only fight when the chance for victory is all but assured.

 

Nor did Flight, or my apparent lack of it, obscure my assessment and judgement nor alter or affect my decision making processes. Not sure if you are into things like Situational Awareness and OODA loop but I do like to look before I leap then it's take, take, take time.

 

Thanks for posting JTC's words. They do serve as to what could be perceived as his personal definition of Gameplay, perhaps.

 

Player dependencies as well as role specializations are very important things. Gaming as a whole has lost a lot of that. Dread to say this as a former solo player but there is too much soloing in games, today. Do miss the socialization in early games and groups.

 

But most important of all, is a certain game function and mechanic going to be fun for the few or many.

 

Looks like only the Fae can glide so far, so why elevate one archetype above all?

 

Let them eat their cake, while gliding. Am still set against anything more than that, with regards to Flight, in CrowFall.

Edited by Maxima

"Signals, Sound off Plates and Greaves! Line up! Prepare to advance!"

- Saying things a Centaur Legionnaire likes to hear.

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it feels like people are hindered in there opinion on whether flying should be or not by previous experience the only way we will know is once they apply it to a alpha's/beta's. from a wow perspective it ended PvP Aion made PvP more interesting never played SB so cant comment but i feel like throwing about how you should have been better/worse in ur SB role doesnt much effect the conversation trying to be created here. Look at the concepts in CF see whats aspects could be negative/positive in a debate about flying.

You mentioned hindered with what I am understanding to be a negative connotation. No matter. Is it not said that hindsight is also 20/20??? ;)

 

Since, you did miss out on SB, can understand why you fail to see much relevance with the sharing of SB tales. Too bad but am more than sure that you will get to experience much of it in CrowFall.

 

Have said in another Flight-related topic and thread that CrowFall will be the game Shadowbane was supposed to be.

 

Not to leak or spoil JTC's upcoming plan for global gaming domination... lol.. but didn't he make Wiz101 to help promote PVP to a whole new generation of players, young and old? And in very Shadowbane-esque themes and lore to boot. Spent some time in The Great Spiral (after SB died, needed a fix the emus did not scratch so tried out W101) and pieced together how the future of PVP might spring from the same well, again... and it has with CrowFall.

 

So with all that, CF won't be SB2, it will be much more glorious than that. :)

 

Look forward to starting out on a new adventure and new experience. One that has Gliding for Flight.

Edited by Maxima

"Signals, Sound off Plates and Greaves! Line up! Prepare to advance!"

- Saying things a Centaur Legionnaire likes to hear.

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The gliders were one of the best parts of Archeage. It's just another game mechanic, but it can be a really fun one if done well.

 

 

They were awesome in AA because they had limited flight times, were vulnerable to ranged attacks, and were somewhat dependent on terrain features.

Edited by RaynMaykr

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An artificial system doesn't dictate the shortcomings of another, if anything, the shortcomings you perceive in Shadowbane are 1: Subjective, they don't qualify a problem simply because you weren't happy with them, but more importantly 2: are a working point to reconstruct something better which resolves undesirable interactions.

 

Design for Crowfall has clearly stated from day one that the there would be deep archetype asymmetry, even to the extent of archetypes and customization being inferior in combat as a whole in exchange for better constructive functions. It's perfectly within scope to have an archetype which can completely surpass another, or completely avoid another on it's own. This is a group PvP oriented game, and ACE has made it abundantly clear that they aren't even trying to make a 1 to 1 balance.

 

If your personally against it, no matter what, that doesn't qualify that it's a widely held disapproval, and if you can't perceive any solution to make some quality of fun flight an interactive part of the game... well that's your shortcoming. There are innumerable ways to change an artificial system, and your only weighing the one's you've experienced :-/


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Not asking for 1v1. Check where I said I am a former solo player. Check my mention of player dependencies. Suggest you either reread and/or point up your reading comprehension.

 

You might also wanna look more into Game Design and see how perceived Player Experiences matter in games.

 

Downplaying negative responses does not detract from their validity as being personal and directly relating to ones overall opinion and view.

 

My position, and my words, are set in stone. Further discussion... nay, further argument is not on my to-do-list for the day so I shall leave you and your self-important words. Am sure you can entertain yourself adequately and enough.

 

Be cheeky as you want with your words. Like the old saying about fools and doubt, keep on posting. May you be wiser in-game than your post count.

 

Good day!


"Signals, Sound off Plates and Greaves! Line up! Prepare to advance!"

- Saying things a Centaur Legionnaire likes to hear.

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