Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
seventhbeacon

The Pve Fallacy

Recommended Posts

PvP activity is activity actively opposed by other players. PvE activity is opposed by mechanical game systems. The E in PvE doesn't stand for "Monster" because "Monster" doesn't start with an E.

 

A crafting station is just as much a part of the environment as a Large Rat is. Unless I have to outstitch another player in real time to get my tunic done, crafting is a PvE activity.

And there are those that have suggested that lol   Just sayin


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PvP activity is activity actively opposed by other players. PvE activity is opposed by mechanical game systems. The E in PvE doesn't stand for "Monster" because "Monster" doesn't start with an E.

 

A crafting station is just as much a part of the environment as a Large Rat is. Unless I have to outstitch another player in real time to get my tunic done, crafting is a PvE activity.

 

I was about to type "I can not see how a player who is crafting is playing versus the environment". Then I realized that mining a rock, extracting minerals, transforming the minerals into a sword is as much playing versus environment than if I was hitting a monster and looting a sword. 

 

The difference I see is only about the monster representing an animated entity as opposed to a rock. Both are environment I guess, and both need players to go against them to earn a reward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If gathering resources and crafting is PvE, it is akin to a feather lifting competition. Never challenging, no real thought put into it. Not really a versus, not really entertaining to watch as a challenge between competitors. The feather doesn't ever have a chance of winning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PvP activity is activity actively opposed by other players. PvE activity is opposed by mechanical game systems. The E in PvE doesn't stand for "Monster" because "Monster" doesn't start with an E.

 

A crafting station is just as much a part of the environment as a Large Rat is. Unless I have to outstitch another player in real time to get my tunic done, crafting is a PvE activity.

this one is so far over 9000 I hadda both Like and Quote it...

 

/golfclap

 

nuff said?


FIQw0eP.png

let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh oh.. I love being able to add my worthless opinion to worthless discussions.  :P

 

PvPcentric is a really stupid term.  Does anyone call WoW PvEcentric because it has some pointless PvP thrown into it's game?  No, It's simply a PvE game.

 

There may be some non-PvP things to do in Crowfall but make no mistake about it.. just about everything in the game is there to facilitate PvP.  So it IS a PvP game.

 

Crowfall = PvP game

WoW = PvE game

Darkfall = PvP game

Eve = PvP game

Shadowbane = PvP game

SWG = PvE game

DAoC = PvP game

GW2 = PvE game

GW2s WvWvW = PvE game   :o

 

 

uh not quite correct...

 

GW2s WvWvW and PvP in WS = 

orIaiS8.gif

 

A confusing mess followed by "why did I do this?" running though the mind. :P

 

But I digress I completely agree with jihan

 

PvP activity is activity actively opposed by other players. PvE activity is opposed by mechanical game systems. The E in PvE doesn't stand for "Monster" because "Monster" doesn't start with an E.

 

A crafting station is just as much a part of the environment as a Large Rat is. Unless I have to outstitch another player in real time to get my tunic done, crafting is a PvE activity.

 

Spot on.

 

While on the topic, one can even argue market competition in a game is PvP, as competing with people to make a profit on the in game trade market is a form of PvP, haggling and pricing competition is also - especially so in games revolving around a player economy and in turn has separate isolated markets for each city/location.


------------(ஜ۩۞۩ஜ)------------


Now in GLORIOUS 'HDvisioning60fpsblahg'


------------(ஜ۩۞۩ஜ)------------

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man, I just wish a dev would finally post and set this all straight....just put this whole will crowfall be a game for PVErs or not ordeal down once and for all.

 

 

 

I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game. I'm starting to think people just don't listen to me  :(

 

 

Next time one of these threads pop up (probably sometime tomorrow) can y'all do me a favor and let them know their concerns are ill-found?

 

 

In b4 someone definitionally picks apart Tully's post and says it means something different:

 

He won't believe you.

You know nothing Tully


☆ We are in a positive posting drought, so just post. Be the change you want the forums to be. Go wild. Just follow your positive posting star. ☆
☆:*´¨`*:.•.¸¸.•´¯`•.♥.•´¯`•.¸¸.•..:*´¨`*:.☆

(¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯) Member of the Pro-ACE Club (¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@primal Main issue is that people who read either "PvP" or "PvE" have predefined notions what this entails that go way beyond the basic definition. Like that every PvE-game has to have raids or that every PvP-game has to be like a MOBA.

 

That's where this actual misunderstanding is coming from. So until we get rid of people thinking in these categories (and have a game like Crowfall showing what PvP actually can be) we won't get rid of people misunderstanding what Crowfall is about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PvP activity is activity actively opposed by other players. PvE activity is opposed by mechanical game systems. The E in PvE doesn't stand for "Monster" because "Monster" doesn't start with an E.

 

A crafting station is just as much a part of the environment as a Large Rat is. Unless I have to outstitch another player in real time to get my tunic done, crafting is a PvE activity.

 

No.

 

The definition, pulled from wikipedia with reference to Bartle:

 

Player versus environment, or PvE (also known as Player versus Monster, or PvM in some communities), is a term used in online games, particularly MMORPGsCORPGsMUDs, and other online role-playing video games, to refer to fighting computer-controlled enemies[1]—in contrast to PvP (player versus player).

 

Crafting and crafting tables are in-game assets, but that doesn't mean they fit the definition of environment that PvE is referring to. There is no challenge or skill in your typical MMO crafting, just queueing up materials and occasionally some RNG. There are exceptions. I'm told Everquest 2 crafting has some sort of mini game, so in that it would be considered PvE perhaps, but it is not otherwise a PvE activity.


"Darken the moon and conceal the stars; our Light will never be extinguished." - The Tome of the First Flame

LW_sig_concept_7b_lighter_zpsu0zpsinn.jp


The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home. Join us @ http://crowfall.shivtr.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

 

No.

 

The definition, pulled from wikipedia with reference to Bartle:

 

Player versus environment, or PvE (also known as Player versus Monster, or PvM in some communities), is a term used in online games, particularly MMORPGsCORPGsMUDs, and other online role-playing video games, to refer to fighting computer-controlled enemies[1]—in contrast to PvP (player versus player).

 

Crafting and crafting tables are in-game assets, but that doesn't mean they fit the definition of environment that PvE is referring to. There is no challenge or skill in your typical MMO crafting, just queueing up materials and occasionally some RNG. There are exceptions. I'm told Everquest 2 crafting has some sort of mini game, so in that it would be considered PvE perhaps, but it is not otherwise a PvE activity.

 

you know you were wrong as soon as your "definition" equated PvE with "Players versus Monsters"....

 

are we cereally getting bogged down in what the term "vs" means, ffs?

 

7th , it appears that in your view "vs" means combat....so it's between combat versus players and combat versus monsters....am i correct here?

 

for jihan...me...probably every SBer, most EVE folks and so on (ie: elitist asshats) "vs" is any competition AGAINST whatever...not just combat...

 

so yeah, my guilds Crafters are competing against your guilds Crafters for market share to get moar money for whatever....that's a form of PvP to me...

 

the act of gathering the materials and putting them together into a finished product is PvE, killing those mobs is PvE, hell...billygoating up the side of a mountain you are not really supposed to be able to get up that way is PvE

 

and so on....

 

could just be me


FIQw0eP.png

let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PvP activity is activity actively opposed by other players. PvE activity is opposed by mechanical game systems. The E in PvE doesn't stand for "Monster" because "Monster" doesn't start with an E.

 

A crafting station is just as much a part of the environment as a Large Rat is. Unless I have to outstitch another player in real time to get my tunic done, crafting is a PvE activity.

 

You're not "being challenged" at a crafting station. If there was a storm keeping you from crafting near the station, you could say it was a PvE activity.

If you had to keep up your HP while crafting by eating like in a survival game, it would be a PvE activity.

 

But there's nothing in the environment keeping you from crafting, ergo it's not a PvE activity.

(actually with no safe zones, crafting becomes a PvP activity.. since you have to constantly be worried about other players)

 

Gathering is PvE when it's done by slaying monsters. On the other hand, when you're just chopping a tree you're not "fighting" the environment.

Since most MMOs environments are dangerous only if monsters are around, PvE=PvM in most cases.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not true. With crafting, you are competing against the system (you have to do more than just click "want that shiny!") which is also the environment.

 

Game theory has it that games are either competetive (PvP) or recreative (PvE). The difference is if you play AGAINST or WITH other players. If you compete against the rules, a goal or anything that is part of the game but not caused by another participant it is recreative still.

Edited by Angier

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not true. With crafting, you are competing against the system (you have to do more than just click "want that shiny!") which is also the environment.

 

Game theory has it that games are either competetive (PvP) or recreative (PvE). The difference is if you play AGAINST or WITH other players.

What if it's a race?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Races are PvP according to that game theory. Because you measure you effort AGAINST other player's efforts. It's the act that counts, not the consequence. Of course, if you discuss this far enough you could come to the conclusion that crafting is somewhat PvP as you ultimately compete with your products against other products. But the act itself is not competetive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Races are PvP according to that game theory. Because you measure you effort AGAINST other player's efforts. It's the act that counts, not the consequence. Of course, if you discuss this far enough you could come to the conclusion that crafting is somewhat PvP as you ultimately compete with your products against other products. But the act itself is not competetive.

Are all those Wow World First boss kills races, and thus PvP?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not true. With crafting, you are competing against the system (you have to do more than just click "want that shiny!") which is also the environment.

 

I could accept that, but what exactly are you competing against? RNG (which should be absent in crowfall)?


y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, the act counts. Which means you have to split up the different aspects of crafting as a concept into part PvE part PvP.

 

 

Are all those Wow World First boss kills races, and thus PvP?

 
Yes, the race aspect of world first boss kills is PvP, ACCORDING TO GAME THEORY. They are not PvP in accordance to content classification in MMOs. That is one of the typical fallacies if you take activities in MMO and measure them up against theoretical activity-
Edited by Angier

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gathering resources might be PvE, depending on if you have to overcome an environment challenge in order to achieve them (like slaying monsters or avoiding a tornado, but only the former has been done in MMOs). Do you consider gathering a part of crafting? Crafting in itself isn't PvE, as long as there are no mini-games to beat in order to make the item.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you know you were wrong as soon as your "definition" equated PvE with "Players versus Monsters"....

 

are we cereally getting bogged down in what the term "vs" means, ffs?

 

7th , it appears that in your view "vs" means combat....so it's between combat versus players and combat versus monsters....am i correct here?

 

for jihan...me...probably every SBer, most EVE folks and so on (ie: elitist asshats) "vs" is any competition AGAINST whatever...not just combat...

 

so yeah, my guilds Crafters are competing against your guilds Crafters for market share to get moar money for whatever....that's a form of PvP to me...

 

the act of gathering the materials and putting them together into a finished product is PvE, killing those mobs is PvE, hell...billygoating up the side of a mountain you are not really supposed to be able to get up that way is PvE

 

and so on....

 

could just be me

Do you consider the WoW AH to be PvP?

 

I think the OP is correct to blow up the false dichotomy that everything in the game must be labeled one or the other. I think it's a real stretch to label crafting PvE or PvP. Instead, we might see it as a third category of activity. Of course, I lean closer to PvE implying combat and it's all subjective anyhow.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...