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seventhbeacon

The Pve Fallacy

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Yes, the race aspect of world first boss kills is PvP, ACCORDING TO GAME THEORY. They are not PvP in accordance to content classification in MMOs. That is one of the typical fallacies if you take activities in MMO and measure them up against theoretical activity-

 

 

Wouldn't the Player vs Monster flavor of "PvE" still be classified as a competitive game (your "PvP") since players are competing against a rational actor, namely the AI?

 

A cooperative game in formal game theory would be players trying to maximize profit by forming coalitions or trying to complete some task with least cost. The task doesn't fight back, does it?

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Wouldn't the Player vs Monster flavor of "PvE" still be classified as a competitive game (your "PvP") since players are competing against a rational actor, namely the AI?

 

A cooperative game in formal game theory would be players trying to maximize profit by forming coalitions or trying to complete some task with least cost. The task doesn't fight back, does it?

Scripted encounters do not a Player make.

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Do you consider the WoW AH to be PvP?

 

 

I "did" consider it PvP back in classic, before Auctioneer and other addons were invented.  In those days there were commodity markets, people would farm mid level to high level dungeons solo on epic geared characters so they could raise enough money to buy whatever they wanted to buy.  The big competitive markets were rare materials for potions, raw materials for armour smithing and weapon smithing, because all these things had to be of a large scale to support 40 man raiding guilds who would blow though hundreds of potions a night and there was a demand for resist gear for raids.  People were very secretive about how they make money on the AH so they could try and keep a monopoly or at least reduce their competition and a lot of people used to buy one thing out completely to then resell at a higher price later.  Another thing which used to go on (not sure if it still does) was in those days some pets and other silly things which a lot of the female members and some male members of the WoW community loved to collect were faction restricted.  Which meant that you could make a massive profit if you cross sold pets via the neutral trade hub, same for some rep and location quest related goods.  In those days crafting made you gold because the majority of the population of the game couldn't be bothered to max crafting because in those days to be able to max crafting you had to be a raider.

 

WoW's economy once upon a time looked more like a watered down version of Everquest, rather than a "dump anything you don't need on the AH and someone will buy it because their lazy and would rather not farm it" like it is now.  Crafting is a joke in WoW now, you only do it for yourself, especially since everyone has 6+ crafting alts all maxed.

 

"gold farmers" who farmed low level commodities to sell on AH still existed, but it wasn't till BC and mats that dropped from mobs that were needed for crafting became prolific and thus killed the market.  Because of that, Blizzard's solution was to introduce dailies that give enough gold to compensate while at the same time banning gold farmers.


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Scripted encounters do not a Player make.

 

It doesn't matter if the encounter is scripted. The opponent is a rational actor and competing against the player(s). Just because a game is solved doesn't magically make it a cooperative game.

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This sounds like a variant of the whole `it is/isn't P2W` argument, people arguing that their `opinion` of what is or isn't `environment`.   Not sure I see the value in even bothering to fuss over what is or isn't PvE.  All that matters is that ACE has said that this is a PvP-focused game with player looting and sometimes full-loot and as such the PvE elements are sure to be nothing more than bait for PvP to occur over... not that it'll stop PvE oriented players from trying to isolate themselves away from the PvP as much as possible and then complaining that the PvP is driving them away from the game because they didn't want to PvP in the first place.


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On a side note, I personally consider "Server/World Firsts" to be a stupid competition when it comes to MMO raids, world bosses, etc. They're not stupid for everyone, but I personally enjoy a marathon over the rat race. If you want to call that behavior PvP, fine, but it's an external PvP behavior. Killing the world boss is still a PvE activity.


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It doesn't matter if the encounter is scripted. The opponent is a rational actor and competing against the player(s). Just because a game is solved doesn't magically make it a cooperative game.

I don't think I have ever seen AI in a MMORPG. Just scripted encounters, and thus not rational actors. This still doesn't make it PvP. The versus is what makes it a competition between foes. The foes are the subjects on each end of the versus. It isn't any more complicated than that.

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This sounds like a variant of the whole `it is/isn't P2W` argument, people arguing that their `opinion` of what is or isn't `environment`.   Not sure I see the value in even bothering to fuss over what is or isn't PvE.  All that matters is that ACE has said that this is a PvP-focused game with player looting and sometimes full-loot and as such the PvE elements are sure to be nothing more than bait for PvP to occur over... not that it'll stop PvE oriented players from trying to isolate themselves away from the PvP as much as possible and then complaining that the PvP is driving them away from the game because they didn't want to PvP in the first place.

I think the value is understanding the nuances of making and marketing this game. I do think a lot of the possible value from this thread has been actualized, though. Specifically if the thread helps devs understand that "not leaning PvE" and "heavily based around crafting" apparently could be contradictory to some players.


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I don't think I have ever seen AI in a MMORPG. Just scripted encounters, and thus not rational actors. This still doesn't make it PvP. The versus is what makes it a competition between foes. The foes are the subjects on each end of the versus. It isn't any more complicated than that.

 

Sure, scripted AI may not make choices which maximize its personal advantage; but that depends on the AI and how much of a handicap the developer wants to give the player. 

 

Regardless, I am not saying that scripted encounters are PvP. I am punching holes in Angier's opinion that PvP = competive games (in formal theory) and PvE = cooperative games. I think the vast majority of PvE are actually competitve games. I don't think (informal) game system are dichotomized into PvP and PvE; the reality is much more gray and there are rules that suddenly transform PvE into PvP (e.g. races, leaderboards). The competitive vs cooperative formal theory is not applicable to this discussion.

 

I am a multiplayer, directly competitive player. But I also recognize that the vast majority of open/world PvP is challenge-less ganking. One side engineers a massive advantage and only strikes when the deck is stacked in their favor. And that's OK if you are looking for the larger-scale environmental/diplomatic duel. I know there is skill is baiting, and even fighting disadvantaged just so that you can have a fight.

 

PvP, PvE, crafting, gathering, and trading can all be trivial or challenging. There is also challenge in highly-tuned scripted encounters. There is challenge is optimizing resources. Is there challenge in F1'ing during an Eve fleet battle? Is there challenge attacking someone equipped to gather rather than fight? 

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"challenge-less gankfest"

 

love the phrase...I tend to disagree with the intent

 

a Player is almost always more of a challenge than any Mob

 

the only challenge I've ever found from any Mob was that they were given a ridiculous amount of hitpoints and/or resists beyond anything a Player can have in a game

 

when that happens the only challenge is resource management so you don't run out of mana or stam

 

like mobs in EQ or DF

 

could just be me...


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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Sure, scripted AI may not make choices which maximize its personal advantage; but that depends on the AI and how much of a handicap the developer wants to give the player. 

 

Regardless, I am not saying that scripted encounters are PvP. I am punching holes in Angier's opinion that PvP = competive games (in formal theory) and PvE = cooperative games. I think the vast majority of PvE are actually competitve games. I don't think (informal) game system are dichotomized into PvP and PvE; the reality is much more gray and there are rules that suddenly transform PvE into PvP (e.g. races, leaderboards). The competitive vs cooperative formal theory is not applicable to this discussion.

 

I am a multiplayer, directly competitive player. But I also recognize that the vast majority of open/world PvP is challenge-less ganking. One side engineers a massive advantage and only strikes when the deck is stacked in their favor. And that's OK if you are looking for the larger-scale environmental/diplomatic duel. I know there is skill is baiting, and even fighting disadvantaged just so that you can have a fight.

 

PvP, PvE, crafting, gathering, and trading can all be trivial or challenging. There is also challenge in highly-tuned scripted encounters. There is challenge is optimizing resources. Is there challenge in F1'ing during an Eve fleet battle? Is there challenge attacking someone equipped to gather rather than fight?

 

Ah, I follow where you are taking this now. I also agree with you entirely and will help crush anyone who feels otherwise!

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Personally I've always seen crafting as neither a PvE nor PvP activity. It is it's own category. It also involves both as you may have to fight mobs for mats or gather nodes in a PvP enabled setting.

 

So to me it's just rather narrowminded and simple to say well if it's not PvP then it's obviously PvE. It's so much deeper than that.

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Do you consider the WoW AH to be PvP?

 

 

On the selling side, Yes. On the buying side, it depends on the reason for the purchase. 

Edited by buc denizen

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This makes me wonder if the world will be generated with "natural" traps. Say a scout is doing their thing then fall to death


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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Econ PvP is such a fun thing.

 

I remember in Vanilla I got reported for purchasing all of the runecloth (I think this is the right cloth) and reselling them all at ridiculous prices. I was funding my huge bank account by fishing Stonescale Eels that sold for a poorly made socks ton on raid reset day. That is when I stopped selling/buying on the AH on my main characters and when I realized just how crazy Econ PvP can be.

 

PvE is exciting. But in the end you are figuring out set patterns of time, geography, ect ect. B)  B)  B)

 

Even against the same PvP'ers at higher competitive brackets people don't make the same sequence of skills every time. Unless they macro. Cuz macro. :ph34r:

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... purchasing all of the runecloth (I think this is the right cloth) and reselling them all at ridiculous prices. 

 

I like playing the market and econ warfare. There's a real twirl-the-moustache-evilly fun when you realize that at that moment in time, even if it's for just a few seconds, anyone that wants to buy an item has to go through you and pay whatever price you demand. 

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Why does this thread even matter?  Features are features.  ACE will chose what they implement.  Players will chose what they use.  Labels are pointless.


Entropy is not what it used to be.  I am a servant of The Nothing.. The Hunger!

 

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Folks who say you are not competing against the "Environment" when crafting may not have played certain MMOs. SWG, for example, you very much were competing against the system. You had to collect the right ingredients, craft them against chance of failure, then assemble the crafted components against chance of failure. Each step you could screw something up. Push it too far in this direction. Don't give enough in this direction. It was like playing blackjack. Do I hit or stay? If I hit, I could get 21 but if I stay I might win anyway....

 

Not all MMOs have crafting like that, but, for the ones that do, that is very much PvE.


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