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Althilin

Mitigation Tank... not Dodge Tank?

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Well, let's review the kinds of tanks you typically find in MMO's to see which ones we like best (only referencing tanking roles that I have seen/experienced in MMOs in the past, if I’m missing some tanking playstyles, I apologize and feel free to describe them to me):

 

Conventional Tanking Roles

 

Mitigation Tank (MT) – Pretty straightforward, your typical sword and board warrior. These kinds of tanks really have 1 primary job: generate threat without going overboard, and keep mobs/enemies focused on you while you simply absorb and shrug off damage with your above average defenses/health/buffs. Typically well balanced defensively with room to specialize, their primary weakness is their low DPS output as a result of splitting their DPS with "threat generation" and utility in most cases, using buffs to either outlast their foes or debuffing enemies for their teammates to pour in the hurt more efficiently, with some CC mixed in to help keep foes locked down. MT's DPS had a tendency to be more focused on high sustained DPS that require fights to be drawn out as their power gradually increases. In action combat games, these classes often had access to "block" abilities which allowed them to completely nullify damage provided their positioning and resources were properly managed, while giving them more CC options to compensate for a lack of mobility that is inherent in this role, as most MTs have few mobility options or low movement speed. Tend to be premier single target tanks.

 

These are your warrior and knight classes in other games, such as TERA’s Lancers and WoW’s Defense Warriors. The MT niche is most apparently held by the Knight, with their shields and blocking abilities, access to a variety hard CC, preference for higher defenses and armors, while making primary usage of melee weaponry. However, as a wrench thrown in the mix, they will also have access to a bow and the ability to specialize in ranged combat, though to what extent remains to be seen.

 

Dodge/Parry Tank (D/PT) – Probably the greatest departure from the playstyle of the standard MT, this class differs greatly depending on the type of game and targeting system used. Instead of absorbing hits like theMT, the D/PTs avoids damage entirely. Typically having less health and armor stats than the mitigation tank, D/PTs made up for it with their wide access to utility abilities, such as mobility, buffs, typically soft CC, and minor healing. In a tab-targeting system, Dodge and Parry are typically treated like stats upgraded by levels and gear in which RNG allows them to stay in one place to tank, much like an MT, only with bursts of non-damage (evading damage) and high damage (when hits finally did land on their typically smaller health pools). This meant healers had to pay even closer attention to D/PTs than MTs when they ran afoul of the RNG gods, requiring bigger heals more often (though in some circumstances, could mitigate the difference and panic by bringing their own healing abilities). In action combat games and free-targeting systems, D/PTs were often much more active, using many high mobility and invulnerability skills to move around enemy hitboxes so they could evade incoming damage. They also had similar stats to their tab-targeting brethren, with lower health pools and armor stats than MTs, again carrying over those periods of non-damage and high damage. In action combat games especially, D/PTs were often considered to be undesirable compared to MTs, due to constantly having to adjust their positions to avoid damage, forcing their team to adjust their positioning as well, resulting in DPS loss or unintended damage to the other team members. They also struggled in situations with multiple enemies, given animation speeds and GCDs. The tradeoff was that D/PTs often generated more damage and threat, keeping them the focus of enemies. No matter what, the skill cap for D/PTs were often very high compared to other classes to play correctly and effectively.

 

D/P tanks were TERA’s Warriors, FFXI’s Blink Tanks (for those who remember), and WoW’s Brewmasters. Currently, Templars have been indicated to fill this niche, though the specifics as to how have not yet been revealed.

 

Mirror/Healing Tanks (M/HT) – These tanks are much more aggressive than other tanks, and can just as easily be called DPS from their gameplay. M/HTs are able to tank by continuously and steadily bringing the pain to their foes, activating many of their tanking/healing abilities alongside their damaging abilities, though how this happens varies from game to game. Typically having above average defenses (while health can be either average or above average), their ability to tank hits tends to be very steady and paced (if appearing somewhat frantic). This is often offset by their abilities to steal health from opponents through their own abilities either passively or actively (again depending on the game), or punishing foes through baiting/predicting incoming damage and dealing parry/counter damage. Through proper application of abilities, both the M/HT and foe would experience steady losses in health, with the M/HT typically persevering through their health returns and counters or with the backup from their team to ensure the enemy falls first and fast. These tanks were not meant for the long run, requiring them to be very active in their playstyle and burn quickly through resources and CDs as a result. Fortunately, they also typically came equipped with many potent AOE abilities and debuffs, and were often considered at their best combating multiple foes at once (often being called AOE tanks). Often favorably compared to MTs in their reliable and steady tanking abilities, they also came at a high risk of being overwhelmed damage-wise over the long run, meaning their limitations were often very clear early in an engagement. Fortunately, with their ability to mitigate this damage with their self-healing, most mistakes can be quickly remedied or escaped. Often replacing most utility for AOE or combat-oriented abilities, M/HTs were oftentimes not as versatile as the other tanking classes, with a clearly defined playstyle: be aggressive and stay healthy by any means necessary.

 

The M/HT role is best exemplified in WoW’s Blood Death Knight (as a passive mirror tank that absorbs health through debuffs and regaining health through damage) and Protection Paladin (as an actively healing tank to regain lost health), Rift’s Reaver (with certain class combinations to help), and certain Necromancer builds in GW2. Currently, no class in Crowfall indicates using this playstyle, so it is very possible to implement this in the Myrmidon.

 

Personally, I would like to see Myrmidons serve as M/HTs or AOE tanks, essentially using their abilities to siphon life from their foes to sustain themselves on the battlefield as they aggressively sow discord and despair on their enemies. So far, they definitely have the look of dark harbingers of suffering (the Myrmidon portrait is certainly a grim sight), it wouldn’t be too far to guess that they gather sustenance from the pain they bring. Crowfall is missing an AOE tank niche, so this might be a good opportunity. Of course, not implemented properly, and the Myrmidon becomes OP, which becomes its own problem. A dedicated CC tank might work as well, but may overlap with player’s abilities to CC as well, so I can’t see them as having as much of a contribution.

 

Anyhow, just thought I’d offer this up for people to think about what kinds of tanks they want to see in Crowfall and come up with ideas. If you can think of any other tanking or types that I may have missed, feel free to suggest them (I know there are others but for the sake of time and space, decided to focus on the playstyles most common in MMO's).

Edited by RKNM

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Unconventional Tanking Roles

 

Health Tanks (HT) – These tanks are designed around heath pools above all else. Compared to other tanks, their health pools are astronomically high, often at the expense of lower defenses to damage. At the same time though, with health pools as high as theirs, they are the least susceptible to burst damage, and their health falls at a very steady and gradually paced rate, making it easy to recover from any mistakes. However, under a sustained assault, HTs have a rough time of keeping up, and because of their steep health pools, healing also has a mitigated effect. Most of their movesets revolve around taking damage while removing debuffs/applying buffs, much like an MT, though HTs boast a fair amount of versatility, to include some forms of passive health regeneration and greater availability of AOE abilities. However, in terms of DPS, HTs typically have some of the lowest single target DPS capabilities, favoring more AOE attacks to sustain their aggro. After all, with their amount of health, they often expect to outlast opponents from sheer amount of health alone.

 

HTs are only in a few select games, and there is very little difference in their playstyle than from MTs, which are much more common. One difference is that there is typically much less input or available options for the tank to sustain their health pools or defenses, as their health pools are so vast that most heals or defense buffs would be largely unnoticeable. The few examples of HTs in PvP focus on survivability, and even then they are quite rare to see in a PvP scenario.

 

WoW’s Bear Druids are the most prominent form of HTs and are mostly balanced around PvE, with their only contributions in PvP being for survivability in specific scenarios (node or flag capturing). No Crowfall archetype has indicated following this niche role in tanking. However, personally, I can see the Champion taking this role, as this form of tank requires very little management in the form of buffs or healing, allowing the Champion to focus on dealing sustained AOE damage without worrying about burst damage. Having Champions be HTs would also afford them the ability to go into larger numbers of enemies and also make up for their larger profiles. That said, it would be difficult to fit in Champions as HTs without them being either overwhelming defensively or underwhelming offensively, but I have faith in the devs.

 

CC Tank (CCT) – These roles are often categorized as DPS, but can often perform an off-tank role. While there are few examples of a dedicated CCT, in a lot of content, it is possible to “tank” by stalling the enemy through judicious use of CC abilities, such as stuns, knockdowns, and other CC abilities to lockdown or slow a targets damage output, giving allies a chance to focus damage or recover. While almost all RPG games have some forms of CC, they are most effective and potent in action combat games. These classes focus on periods of action denial and interruption coupled with damage mitigation and DPS. While generally having less robust defensive stats (given that they are often relegated to DPS roles), these classes often borrow elements from the other tank roles to bolster their defensive options. Because they do not provide threat, using these classes as tanks is often unadvised, but can still be viable to protecting and saving teammates in the absence of better tanking options.

 

In PvP, these specializations often play niche roles that allow them to excel in combat either solo or in groups in certain situations. Their damage outputs are often viewed as potent and formidable, however their primary contribution is in locking down or locking out high-priority targets with their CC’s and interrupts to set up executions. They are often high-priorities themselves due to the potent threat they present and are frequently attract fire and attention, and for this reason they often have average to below average defenses and health to balance gameplay and prevent them from being over powered.

 

TERA’s Berserker and Overwatch’s Reinhardt best portray this role, with their AOE CC and damage abilities and the amount of lockdown/lock out utility they bring to the battlefield is no laughing matter, capable of blocking and locking down enemies. While their ability to absorb damage outright is somewhat negligible, they have some pronounced tanking ability, such as blocks and the newly implemented “tank stance” for TERA’s Berserker for higher defenses and threat generation. There is no indication that any class in Crowfall will implement this playstyle, but as this has never been implemented before, this may be an opportunity to see how well it performs. The danger lies in the lack of testing of this kind of class, as it may be heavily OP or completely underwhelming if not implemented properly or not properly tested. Also, as Crowfall is a group-oriented PvP game, there will be plenty of opportunities for players to work together to stunlock opponents themselves, so the inclusion of a CC-centric class may be unnecessary (or downright cruel).

 

Distraction Tanks – Again, not a real tank role, more of a utility based DPS role, but can be effective nonetheless. These kinds of tank roles vary from game to game and really only exist in a game’s metagame. However, they are powerful additions and can very effectively tank and distract Often serving more of a support or DPS role, these classes mostly shine in PvP scenarios as off-tanks. While they may not be the first to be volunteered to be a damage sponge due to their negligible defensive stats, they can provide powerful utility or distractions that may spare other classes the suffering. In PvE, this utility can be outsourced through use of powerful pets or summons with large health pools or defenses in order for the player themselves to provide DPS.

 

In PvP, these roles have a much greater opportunity to shine, and often in dramatic ways that warrant a call for swift death by their enemies. These “utility tanks” makes dramatic usage of their powerful and unique abilities to make themselves a priority. Again, these roles and uses vary from game to game and really only exist in a game’s metagame. Probably the best example of a distraction tank is GW2’s Mesmer specialization. While Mesmer’s themselves tend to be very squishy, they are able to “outsource” damage by distracting players with copies and illusions of themselves to bait players into using abilities on the wrong targets while also having many defensive stats and options to draw from (once played a Mesmer with a dedicated PvP-tank build. Even with 6 players on her tail, she was never in any danger at all, using illusions to throw us off her tail and AOE fields to buff her defenses and debuff our attacks. Was one of the coolest and most interesting tank builds I had ever played against (has been nerfed since, not sure when)). Other examples are various hunters and pet classes in other games, such as those with pets with vast health pools to allow an easy PvE experience or a frustrating PvP experience.

 

If this role were to go to anyone in Crowfall, I would currently say that the Legionnaire best fits this role. With is large size, powerful and distracting utility abilities consisting of knockdowns, knockbacks, stuns, and AOE buffs and debuffs, the Legionnaire is easily a noticeable and powerful harassing force, with his abilities potent and discordant enough to warrant a rather high priority in PvP. The Legionnaire has enough utility to both save and support allies, and the harass and CC to distract his opponents from other targets to serve in an OFF-TANK role (while the Legionnaire has the potential for a tank role, as he stands, he appears to be a SUPPORT role by acting as an OFF-TANK).

Edited by RKNM

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I think I like him as a mitigation tank.  Think The Incredible Hulk, raging through combat shrugging off the blows of lesser beings.  It would interesting if they gave him rage like mechanic based on damage taken--basically, the myrmidon does more damage (or has access to more powerful abilities) the more damage he takes.  He wouldn't dodge or block much, but suck up damage with a large health pool and perhaps with an option for regeneration or life drain self healing (minotaurs are man eaters in some popular fantasy).  The closer the myrmidon gets to death, the more dangerous he gets, putting him in an interesting position where he has to decide if he wants to use a regen/life drain skill to stay alive, or access his big damage abilities and risk death.           

 

EDIT:  He would still be a mitigation tank though--through a large health pool, regen/life drain.  However, he would have an option for increased damage (though not dps levels) by allowing his health bar to get low. 

 

EDIT II:  I would also add that this could make friendly fire interesting--teams could chose whether or not to "wind up" the myrmidon right before a battle by doing damage to him so he could have access to a certain skill from the get go.

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I think I like him as a mitigation tank.  Think The Incredible Hulk, raging through combat shrugging off the blows of lesser beings.  It would interesting if they gave him rage like mechanic based on damage taken--basically, the myrmidon does more damage (or has access to more powerful abilities) the more damage he takes.  He wouldn't dodge or block much, but suck up damage with a large health pool and perhaps with an option for regeneration or life drain self healing (minotaurs are man eaters in some popular fantasy).  The closer the myrmidon gets to death, the more dangerous he gets, putting him in an interesting position where he has to decide if he wants to use a regen/life drain skill to stay alive, or access his big damage abilities and risk death.           

 

EDIT:  He would still be a mitigation tank though--through a large health pool, regen/life drain.  However, he would have an option for increased damage (though not dps levels) by allowing his health bar to get low. 

 

EDIT II:  I would also add that this could make friendly fire interesting--teams could chose whether or not to "wind up" the myrmidon right before a battle by doing damage to him so he could have access to a certain skill from the get go.

Every game that has tried this type of mechanic has ended with the class either being worthless; too much spike damage available in the game and/or the damage gained wasn't significant enough.

The other reason the class gets abandoned? Overpowered, as in you drop the class to 10-15% hp left and it is suddenly one shotting everything in range without trying.

 

These classes get asked for all the time by players, and the results are always one of the above. The class goes back and forth between overpowered and useless as the game keeps getting balanced and tweaked, eventually they give up and just trash the class...or the game fails.

 

Because, lets face it...you essentially are saying this class is only fighting at full effectiveness somewhere between 30% and 50% hp while everyone else is fully effective at 100% hp. This is a huge problem in any game that has ANY big blows.

 

Lets AVOID that this time eh? Focus more on methods that don't turn into balancing nightmares.


"Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful Nice."

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I think after looking at the way this class/race is done that it can still be a mitigation tank based on its thick hide possibly. With that being said maybe some self shout type of buffs will be added to keep him in line with the knights armor. This could also add damage debuff shouts to the class as well and maybe they can do sort of a stance dance with shout buffs and debuffs. This could make this character fun and challenging to play along with if the person could play it well awesome in pvp.

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it can still be a mitigation tank.

 

Things can be what they are, yes.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Every game that has tried this type of mechanic has ended with the class either being worthless; too much spike damage available in the game and/or the damage gained wasn't significant enough.

The other reason the class gets abandoned? Overpowered, as in you drop the class to 10-15% hp left and it is suddenly one shotting everything in range without trying.

 

These classes get asked for all the time by players, and the results are always one of the above. The class goes back and forth between overpowered and useless as the game keeps getting balanced and tweaked, eventually they give up and just trash the class...or the game fails.

 

Because, lets face it...you essentially are saying this class is only fighting at full effectiveness somewhere between 30% and 50% hp while everyone else is fully effective at 100% hp. This is a huge problem in any game that has ANY big blows.

 

Lets AVOID that this time eh? Focus more on methods that don't turn into balancing nightmares.

 

Good points--although it does seem feasible that it could be balanced.  I agree that the myrmidon would technically be more effective closer to death and that could be a potential problem.  However, he doesn't have to do more or less damage necessarily (though that was part of my suggestion).  For example, a more damaged myrmidon could have more access to utility, buffs and debuffs, CC or survival mechanics that would make him unique.  Also, since 1v1 is not the way CF is balanced, a tank such as this might confer resistance or protection buffs of some kind to his team as he weakens.  That way, the opposition might well avoid damaging the myrmidon as to avoid this mechanic and therefore have an interesting choice of tactics.  Personally, I have not played a character in an mmo where this mechanic was actually in place, so I've never seen it in action first hand.     


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Good points--although it does seem feasible that it could be balanced.  I agree that the myrmidon would technically be more effective closer to death and that could be a potential problem.  However, he doesn't have to do more or less damage necessarily (though that was part of my suggestion).  For example, a more damaged myrmidon could have more access to utility, buffs and debuffs, CC or survival mechanics that would make him unique.  Also, since 1v1 is not the way CF is balanced, a tank such as this might confer resistance or protection buffs of some kind to his team as he weakens.  That way, the opposition might well avoid damaging the myrmidon as to avoid this mechanic and therefore have an interesting choice of tactics.  Personally, I have not played a character in an mmo where this mechanic was actually in place, so I've never seen it in action first hand.     

I've seen it attempted many times it the end result is always they are overpowered, or no one ever plays them/accepts them into groups because they are too weak if not near death. Because you have to balance them according to having their stuff but every single dev team forgets the whole "near death" part of it. it does you no good to be at full strength when near death because in a game of war, near death = death 9 times out of 10. and frankly if they balanced you at full health against everyone else...then you got MORE things as your health dropped you would be too strong.

 

It's why those mechanics tend to work best in single player games rather than in MMOs. The balancing on it is just too hard and inevitably the community either embraces it because it is STRONG or shuns it because of how weak it is.


"Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful Nice."

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I've seen it attempted many times it the end result is always they are overpowered, or no one ever plays them/accepts them into groups because they are too weak if not near death. Because you have to balance them according to having their stuff but every single dev team forgets the whole "near death" part of it. it does you no good to be at full strength when near death because in a game of war, near death = death 9 times out of 10. and frankly if they balanced you at full health against everyone else...then you got MORE things as your health dropped you would be too strong.

 

It's why those mechanics tend to work best in single player games rather than in MMOs. The balancing on it is just too hard and inevitably the community either embraces it because it is STRONG or shuns it because of how weak it is.

Definitely a good point, however if they figured out a way to implement such a mechanic, it would be amazing. Maybe something like as opposed to being balanced at full HP, you have a few abilities that become unavailable/change what they do the less health you have. So maybe an ability that when above x% HP will cause a slow on the target, but below 50% the slow disappears/lessens but the damage increases. I think a mechanic like that could work in the end.


I represent The Guardians! 


LIBERTAS ARA AMPLUS


Camraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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I like the whole rage based on damage idea. But I also agree that it can make them overpowered or entirely too weak. I'd much prefer a mitigation tank coupled with this ability. More of a rage mechanic built on amount of blows taken instead of damage taken. That should mitigate the easily nuked aspect while still motivating you to charge into the thick of things. I'm thinking less of beserker mechanics and more of angry dwarf outlook on it. Punch them in the face they become enraged and start brawling kind of thing. That is my idea on the matter. 

 

 

As for them as a straight mitigation tank. I like it. It fits my playstyle very well. Couple that with a big hp pool and I'll more than willingly sacrifice bigger dps gains for the ability to charge into a thicket of hell and walk out after a grueling brawl. Which is basically how I always envisioned Minotaur combat anyways. 


xctwLnf.png

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 Maybe something like as opposed to being balanced at full HP, you have a few abilities that become unavailable/change what they do the less health you have. So maybe an ability that when above x% HP will cause a slow on the target, but below 50% the slow disappears/lessens but the damage increases. I think a mechanic like that could work in the end.

 

Yes--abilities do not become more powerful per se, but change based on either proximity to death, or blows received like Muhrder offered. 


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I see the Champion and Myrmidon being very similar, just one more tanky (myrm) and one more DPS (Champ) but both having similar group support mechanics.

 

The Myrmidon would do very well to jump in, CC and aggro and survive. I like the idea of Aggro in PVP like this... when you aggro another player, that player does less damage against your mates, but normal damage against you. It allows tanks in PVP to fill their role better, and truly makes them a group support class.

 

Nothing like seeing a Myrmidon backhanding (or headbutting) an opponent drawing aggro on himself to protect his mates from damage while mitigating damage taken through their brute natural constitution and abilities.

Edited by Kell

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Myrmidon should have advantages based on observable characteristics and the lore.

Observable:

  • Those horns should give him a formidable attack, even when unarmed.
  • He has an extra place to wear enchanted rings.
  • He might have the ability to see in the infrared spectrum with those red eyes.
  • He might have thick fur (armor), high constitution (regeneration), and a keen sense of smell (tracking/Revealing hidden).

Lore Based:


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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I think resistance to CC almost goes without saying if SB had an immunity to stun (chancellor says so I just don't remember) and because the Minotaur (at their legendary core--bull of Minos) was a labyrinth dweller who could hunt down prey there to consume them.   Springing from that, I would also like to see the Myrmidon have some sort of confuse ability CC--a traditional fear from perhaps a bellow doesn't seem to be too far off.  Finally, I do think some sort of vampiric attack or corpse consumption would be very appropriate for the Myrmidon as he is both Minotaur (man eater) and tank (needs interesting ways to keep his health up to mitigate damage).

 

Also, leaving the Myrmidon without a headbutt and/or short charge attack would be a tragedy.    


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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lets summarize what this archetype probably should have:

 

summary:

 

low dps

highest HP

biggest defence

resist or immune to some CC

biggest hitbox

unique utility

rage based class

 

passive/racial passive

1) rage - some passive which gives more dmg based on HP pool lose and/or current rage pool amount (more HP lose - more dmg, more rage gained - more output dmg or less input damage)

2) highest HP pool from all races/classes

3) decent regeneration. probably 1-2% of max HP each second while in combat and 50% of this amount while out of combat

 

active racial (like lego rear kick)

1) headbutt - low distance (3-5m) dash which will hit all on the way rocking from side to side or pushes forward with low duration stun at the end of move

2) thunder - something like aoe ground smash which will throws up to 2-3 enemy in front of Mino

3) bite. some kind of grab/capture to control enemy with bite which do some dmg and heal for some amount of this gamage

 

active:

1) fear - decrease dmg or healing (desease) or decrease defence or surpress (unable to attack)

2) ...

3) ...

 

which skills will generate rage - nwm, ACE will fix it =)

Edited by makkon

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

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