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skytea

Any plans for in game Proximity Voice Chat?

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you give people the ability to make noise, and they'll abuse it

 

sieges will be full of screamers like in H1Z1 pre-battle royale..

If Ace gives people the ability to speak through integrated voice chat they'll use that freedom to form groups and perhaps even lasting alliances. Anyone screaming like an idiot won't get help from others, meaning that they won't be able to advance anywhere in the game. In the end, integrated voice chat will only make the Crowfall community stronger as a whole. A few people trying to abuse the system won't be enough to silence everybody else.

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If Ace gives people the ability to speak through integrated voice chat they'll use that freedom to form groups and perhaps even lasting alliances. Anyone screaming like an idiot won't get help from others, meaning that they won't be able to advance anywhere in the game. In the end, integrated voice chat will only make the Crowfall community stronger as a whole. A few people trying to abuse the system won't be enough to silence everybody else.

 

That is the preferred scenario, but it doesn't mean that there won't be abusers. The question is, do the pros outweigh the cons?

 

I think what might/could end up happening is similar to GW2's WvW, where there will be someone who hosts a TS3 server for the entire faction to use. That way, it is 1) voluntary and 2) able to be moderated by the community. Of course, a TS3 server is vastly different from prox. voice chat, but it may achieve the same goal: improving coordination between random people.

 

For the ability to group up with wanderers as you play, I think chat suffices just fine, the only real benefit of voice is faster coordination. 

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That is the preferred scenario, but it doesn't mean that there won't be abusers. The question is, do the pros outweigh the cons?

 

I think what might/could end up happening is similar to GW2's WvW, where there will be someone who hosts a TS3 server for the entire faction to use. That way, it is 1) voluntary and 2) able to be moderated by the community. Of course, a TS3 server is vastly different from prox. voice chat, but it may achieve the same goal: improving coordination between random people.

 

For the ability to group up with wanderers as you play, I think chat suffices just fine, the only real benefit of voice is faster coordination. 

What I describe is the realistic scenario, the one where those who abuse the system are automatically dealt with by the rest of the Crowfall community. That's the beauty of a highly competitive MMORPG like Crowfall, the simple fact that no player can succeed in the game by themselves introduces a sort of 'self-correcting' mechanism, emergent gameplay at its finest. This is why it's important to get integrated voice chat; especially for players wandering the wilderness, these measures more than any other will strengthen the level and quality of player interactions throughout the game. The first interaction between random players encountering each in campaign doesn't have to be unnecessary violence; integrated voice chat will go a long way to preventing fatal misunderstandings.

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What I describe is the realistic scenario, the one where those who abuse the system are automatically dealt with by the rest of the Crowfall community. That's the beauty of a highly competitive MMORPG like Crowfall, the simple fact that no player can succeed in the game by themselves introduces a sort of 'self-correcting' mechanism, emergent gameplay at its finest. This is why it's important to get integrated voice chat; especially for players wandering the wilderness, these measures more than any other will strengthen the level and quality of player interactions throughout the game. The first interaction between random players encountering each in campaign doesn't have to be unnecessary violence; integrated voice chat will go a long way to preventing fatal misunderstandings.

Sorry but if your scenario was realistic then internet abuse, bullys and tr0lls wouldn't exist. Just sounds again very naïve to how online gaming actually works. They also don't have to succeed by themselves, there are whole community's and guilds that act that way and abuse anything they can. Its not just one random guy abusing the chat its entire guilds and vast sects of the playerbase. So no its not very realistic to think that they will be weeded out somehow.

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Sorry but if your scenario was realistic then internet abuse, bullys and tr0lls wouldn't exist. Just sounds again very naïve to how online gaming actually works. They also don't have to succeed by themselves, there are whole community's and guilds that act that way and abuse anything they can. Its not just one random guy abusing the chat its entire guilds and vast sects of the playerbase. So no its not very realistic to think that they will be weeded out somehow.

It's realistic to expect that anyone abusing system will be dealt with by other players, as anyone caught making a fool of themselves will quickly find themselves without allies or even a place in Crowfall. Certainly, MMORPGs have always had to deal with trolls but that fact hardly amounts to anything, when the history of MMORPGs has been one of lasting and thriving online communities, overcoming any isolated trolls who would seek to ruin the entire game. To that end, integrated voice chat is actually another powerful tool for eliminating trolls. The greater level of communication enabled by voice chat makes it easier than ever for legitimate players to work together, even when they've never even encountered each other before. So, let the trolls come, they'll be wasting their time, integrated voice chat will have the trolls defeated before they even login to the Crowfall.

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1. Do you believe a group need voice chat in order to work together effectively?

 

2a. If no, why not?

 

2b. If yes, do you believe you will always pre-make your groups with enough time to prepare 3rd party Voip? (Or put the other way, do you believe you will never group up with someone in a situation where there isn't time to share 3rd-party voip info?)

 

I feel like everyone agrees that #1 is yes.  So I wonder if people think that 2b is also a yes.  If not, I think that's where you see the advantage of PVC.  I see scenarios where I group up with people outside of my current Teamspeak, but where I don't have time to wait for them to get on my server.  For example, I'm going with my guild mates to assault a keep owned by guild B, and by coincidence as I approach the keep I run into guild C that I know to be relatively friendly, and also an enemy of guild B.  Together, we would have a much better time of taking the keep, and wouldn't end up accidentally killing eachother off in the process.

 

No one is gonna acknowledge this?

 

Ok.  Well, this thread was fun.

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It's realistic to expect that anyone abusing system will be dealt with by other players, as anyone caught making a fool of themselves will quickly find themselves without allies or even a place in Crowfall. Certainly, MMORPGs have always had to deal with trolls but that fact hardly amounts to anything, when the history of MMORPGs has been one of lasting and thriving online communities, overcoming any isolated trolls who would seek to ruin the entire game. To that end, integrated voice chat is actually another powerful tool for eliminating trolls. The greater level of communication enabled by voice chat makes it easier than ever for legitimate players to work together, even when they've never even encountered each other before. So, let the trolls come, they'll be wasting their time, integrated voice chat will have the trolls defeated before they even login to the Crowfall.

 

While I agree that your point is possible, I disagree that it is realistic.

 

What is more realistic is to expect all different kinds of behaviour to be happening, including both trolls as well as lasting and effective friendships. 

 

Its a matter of flavour in my opinion, some people will enjoy it, but others wont. And even then, coordinated groups will likely use private voice chat anyway.

 

I feel that if I were ACE, such a feature as this would simply have too few people benefiting and enjoying it that it'd be worthwhile the development time.

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I really like the idea of proximity voice chat, but frankly I've never seen it in action, so I don't know how well it would work. You can obviously see scenarios where it makes sense, especially for people looking for a group/guild or don't come into the game with one. I personally type all day every day, so speaking gives my hands a break. I'm all for pvc, but it's clear it can be trolled, so it will have to be implemented carefully. The question is, how real do they want the fights to be? I mean people yelling and screaming is exactly what would happen in a real battle, especially if the stakes are high (heavy death penalties). But then again, any real serious group will use an external VOIP so they aren't overheard. They'll simply disable the prox chat and talk on their own. And since there's no possible way to stop them from using an external client, they will have a natural advantage.

 

Not sure what the answer is, but I hope it's a discussion point for ACE. 

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No one is gonna acknowledge this?

 

Ok.  Well, this thread was fun.

 

Ill bite.

 

1 Yes.

 

2 Depends on the situation.. typically if the person realizes that I'm assisting them they won't attack me.. however it usually ends in me dying because the person I helped is in panic mode. And in a full loot pvp game who can blame them.(example from DayZ/Rust that happens far too often... I even use the VoIP there and it doesn't work.)

 

 

Again, mixed feelings on VoIP.


[TB] The Balance
Nation of Equilibrium

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I don't see the issue people are having with PVC. All this talk about people abusing the system is really no different then when people abuse the text chat, other than you can hear the annoyance. In the same way text chat is optional so can PVC, like I stated before with PS2's system you can easily mute the individual or individuals being an annoyance.

 

If people against PVC think using TS3 or Vent is going to be better to coordinate an entire faction then they are sadly mistaken. Also if you think people will pay much attention to text chat you are also sadly mistake as for the same reason you don't like morons in your ears we don't  like morons abusing our eyeballs. Even if someone gets a large server for everyone to hop into it will still lead to a whole lot issues like:

 

1. Having to constantly blast chat with server info as not everyone logs in the game at the same time and even if the majority of players had the info you would still need to blast chat to get any new players entering the game the info.

2. Every time a new campaign world starts someone would have to purchase a server to use if there was no one that had a large server already.

3. With the entire faction or at least most of the faction on the same server then you get a bunch of people that might be at other ends of the world. Yes setting up channels within the server helps this but then someone has to set them up.

4. When you open a larger TS3 or Vent to a community you still get a bunch of morons that will hop in there to blast music or even spy for the other side/sides.

5. When you inevitably start getting the morons doing the above you will need to make sure there is enough moderators for said server to kick them at all times of day otherwise every person would still have to personally mute the said moron. Is there an application process for find moderators?

 

 

There are more things i could possibly add, but i already made this a bit too long and IMO one button done seems a bit easier then dealing with the above. I know I know most of you are thinking "hey, i wont be the one getting the server so i don't have to deal with that headache."  :D

Edited by wolfuse

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Third party programs can be integrated into the actual game program to save money, they just need to create connecting program to identify nearby players so the third party can associate players locally in game.

 

Third party programs can not detect whose close to you for local chat on their own.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Just look at Planetside 2 with proxy chat.. Abused left and right... However, what they did add in was a quick "mute/block current speaker" tap the key, whomever is talking gets instamuted/block.

It's not like proxy chat really adds much to the game, but in large battles it's really nice to yell out "thank dude" or "can I get a heal" if you're not with your guild. It helps a lot is high-awareness required games. So it really depends if CF will need this type of quick/high speed communication.

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This is where you lost me.  Are you equally as unable to type in a stressful situation, as you are to speak?  I find that hard to believe.  I talk on 3rd party VOIP while in combat all the time.  I never type in combat.

 

If I don't have time to add them to 3rd party VOIP, it means it was a combat situation, and thus I would not have time to either add someone if I defaulted to global off for in game VOIP, or mute them if I was unwise enough to leave the in game VOIP on by default- all of those options involve non combat involved keystrokes and menus, and thus taking my attention off of the fight.

 

Have you never had someone drop down into your channel on a public TS server blaring music or otherwise being so audibly obnoxious that you could not hear vital comms and had to make the Faustian choice of either stop trying to listen to anything while fighting (team coordination = fail) or stopping long enough to mute the dumbass?

 

In game VOIP that is enabled by default is that scenario on an extremely regular basis. There will never be a shortage of people happily abusing the combination of an audience + lack of immediate physical punishment. Anyone trying to claim otherwise is being disingenous or incredibly naive.

 

 

Nitpicking, I know, but technically false.  Someone somewhere is paying for that voip server.  It may not be you, but it's certainly not free.

 

 

So? At least then anyone bearing the cost had a choice in whether they bore the cost in return for the service of third party VOIP. Standard online game in game VOIP integration does not allow for that choice- the cost IS passed along the customer if it exists in the game unless they have some sort of DLC model/UI plug in where you can opt into it (pay) if you want it and leave the rest of our wallets alone. Or they choose not to play entirely, which is not an optimal choice for anyone involved, but a rational one if you think you are about to be nickel and dimed to pay the operating costs for a substandard service offering.

 

 

Let me rephrase a situation a bit.  Answer the following questions:

 

1. Do you believe a group need voice chat in order to work together effectively?

 

2a. If no, why not?

 

2b. If yes, do you believe you will always pre-make your groups with enough time to prepare 3rd party Voip? (Or put the other way, do you believe you will never group up with someone in a situation where there isn't time to share 3rd-party voip info?)

 

I feel like everyone agrees that #1 is yes.  So I wonder if people think that 2b is also a yes.  If not, I think that's where you see the advantage of PVC.  I see scenarios where I group up with people outside of my current Teamspeak, but where I don't have time to wait for them to get on my server.  For example, I'm going with my guild mates to assault a keep owned by guild B, and by coincidence as I approach the keep I run into guild C that I know to be relatively friendly, and also an enemy of guild B.  Together, we would have a much better time of taking the keep, and wouldn't end up accidentally killing eachother off in the process.

 

1. Depends on what you define "group" as and define "effectively" as. Both of those terms allow for a huge amount of goalpost moving. Could be why you aren't getting the response rate you were looking for.

 

2a. Some strategy can be hashed out ahead of time or assumed on the fly without voice being strictly required. At times text is superior specifically due to the lack of being as on the fly and lacking inflection, emotion, or accent. (voice you have to listen to right then, text you can read later.)

 

2b. This question assumes a false dichotomy. I personally prefer to form a core group of 5-15 players (past that and the organizational benefits go to crap unless you restrict who can speak) in 3rd party ahead of combat if possible, but have grouped with non VOIP channel included persons to at least extend group UI benefits and in group text chat for simple and moderately private coordination. At other times we have set the TS server to allow anyone to pop into the lobby and set up channels to allows flexible communications while retaining security; and this can be managed and broadcasted in game by anyone on the TS with the right permissions, not just the person in proximity to XxxDJwannabexxX getting noise blasted while in the middle of a fight.

 

Just look at Planetside 2 with proxy chat.. Abused left and right... However, what they did add in was a quick "mute/block current speaker" tap the key, whomever is talking gets instamuted/block.

 

It's not like proxy chat really adds much to the game, but in large battles it's really nice to yell out "thank dude" or "can I get a heal" if you're not with your guild. It helps a lot is high-awareness required games. So it really depends if CF will need this type of quick/high speed communication.

 

Or if the tradeoffs are worth the cost. From my prior experiences with ingame VOIP, it sounds like a great idea the same way utopian socialism sounds great, but past a certain scale when you involve humans and thus human nature it quickly goes to crap.

Edited by Overkillengine

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Or if the tradeoffs are worth the cost. From my prior experiences with ingame VOIP, it sounds like a great idea the same way utopian socialism sounds great, but past a certain scale when you involve humans and thus human nature it quickly goes to crap.

On the contrary, its human nature that makes integrated voice chat possible in Crowfall. Rather than punishing everyone for the risk posed by a few trolls, by denying players the chance to use voice chats, the key to success here is to give players the means to help build the Crowfall community themselves. Every group that is formed by players who have never met before, facilitated by integrated voice chat, is a victory over the trolls. In this manner players can enjoy Crowfall even more thanks to the greater level of communication that voice chat provides, while any troll wanting to abuse the system will be drowned-out by the voices of all legitimate players.

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On the contrary, its human nature that makes integrated voice chat possible in Crowfall. Rather than punishing everyone for the risk posed by a few trolls, by denying players the chance to use voice chats, the key to success here is to give players the means to help build the Crowfall community themselves. Every group that is formed by players who have never met before, facilitated by integrated voice chat, is a victory over the trolls. In this manner players can enjoy Crowfall even more thanks to the greater level of communication that voice chat provides, while any player wanting to abuse the system will be drowned-out by the voices of all legitimate players.

 

You have an overly optimistic assessment of human nature. You are either being disingenious to get a reaction or setting yourself up for some pretty huge disappointments later in life.

 

Plus, you are not being denied the opportunity to use voice chat; you are being denied the opportunity to foist the cost of a by nature substandard VOIP system on others for a very nebulous benefit in exchange.

 

Now if you could persuade the developers to open up the API to allow a 3rd party plug ins that can potentially be utilized for a proximity comm system, sure I could grok supporting that as long it allowed other things and did not directly or indirectly reach into my wallet to support plug ins I have no desire to use.

Edited by Overkillengine

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Any action oriented game needs VOIP. Proximity voice chat would be very helpful outside of your guild's hosted Teamspeak or whatever. When your talking to random people you happen to meet.

 

It would be very advanced if you had 3D positioning of the sound in relation to where people are around you.

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You have an overly optimistic assessment of human nature. You are either being disingenious to get a reaction or setting yourself up for some pretty huge disappointments later in life.

Not at all; in fact, I'm counting on the worst of human nature to help keep trolls in check. Nobody wants to hang around with a loser who joined Crowfall just to make the experience of others players miserable. In this manner the trolls will quickly find themselves alone and socially isolated, where they will no longer be in a position to abuse the system. After all, if a troll abuses voice chat and there is no one to hear it does he really make a sound? The answer is technically 'yes' but when the trolls are rendered powerless and unable to advance in the game they will never pose a threat to the Crowfall community.

Edited by Kintor

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One of the more unique things Crowfall will have is campaigns with adjustable settings.  What if this was a setting?  The different campaign ideas are suppose to support differing play styles, so let the no fun - try hard *ooouaha* gamers have their serious time and the socialite care bares can have their tea time too.  And maybe some in-between  things there to where it only works with allies/friends/etc.

 

 

Greifing/posting shouldn't be that hard to control.  Look at Twitch.  It mutes vods if you play copy-writed music, just about ANY copy-writed music.  No I don't think the CF devs will be able handle that sort of thing right out of the box, but it shouldn't be too hard to come up with something simpler.  Like something that watched for soundboard spammers playing the same thing over and over and cuts them off just like what's done with text spam.  It could also be limited by how much time/money you have invested into your account. Free players wouldn't be able to talk (but could still listen) until they've got like 100 hours play time or something, and then they would only get a few minutes of free talk that regenerates over time.  You get more max talk time the more you've put into the game.  Spammers would simply run out of minutes and also probably get reported/muted/kos'ed by players even when they had them.

Edited by MegaSpacePlayerXH

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