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No invisibility, just camo.


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Who where hate MMo stealthier? A large majority I bet! I've played as a stealther and I still hate them. Sure often times I was wining one on one or even two on one encounters. But I never quite got t

I actually love this approach... BUT... Ultimately, camouflage methods are typically defeated with adjustments to graphics settings, which are inevitable in gaming.  I haven't seen a single instance w

everything is better then pressing a button and puff, no one sees me yaay

Sounds better than invisibility, they can just turn low graphic settings stealth completely invisible to stop exploits.

 

The developers stated that the game won't likely operate on low end systems.

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Well I associate with three Nosgoth groups, watch youtube videos and twitch streams of some of very good players and I like to consider myself very good, often scoring 1th or 2th in my team. And I have never seen any of them change the video settings for such a thing. Nor have I needed to use it to win. Not saying it doesn't happens. But that is like saying if you follow forums plenty of people use aimbots. I've seen that, heard about it even more. but that is what is often refereed to as the loud minority. People like to talk about it more than it actually happens. Heck I never hacked a game, but I've been accused of it on nearly every game I've played... Which personally I feel is a compliment.

 

Though I am rambling. Ultimately though if we do concede to your point, the dev's could simply work on the settings to prevent this. And even if they can't, I'd rather have a 8 year old, snot nosed kid, spotting me and thinking he is a pro hacker. Than have 20 rogues sneak through a capital city unnoticed, and kill the king, before vanishing.

 

I totally agree with you and it wasn't my intention to paint your or anyone else in that way.  The fact is simply that we have to plan for what will happen and not what we hope doesn't.  Every game gets cheated and rigged, we just want to minimize the impact in as many places as possible to keep the game relevant and fun.  As I stated somewhere else on the threads, I helped develop plugins for Decal, an interface into the game Asheron's Call.  The technology was amazing at the time, but it also ultimately destroyed the game. 

"Where there is unity there is always victory." -- Publilius Syrus

"If there weren't luck involved, I would win every time." -- Phil Hellmuth
"A good soldier does not fight because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." -- G. K. Chesterton
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I agree on stealth can be OP but it has a lot to do with balance and how the  game plays out.

I wait until we get to play a stealth (like) mechanic for the first time.

The devs know of this problematic is my guess.

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,,...You get killed over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced - it means that You are a bad player" -JTC

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Sounds better than invisibility, they can just turn low graphic settings stealth completely invisible to stop exploits.

 

The developers stated that the game won't likely operate on low end systems.

Yes that would be my solution. Normal settings get shimmering, wavey pattern, low settings only get a barely readable outline. Worst case scenario it is about on par with the average MMO. Best case it will combat the exploit and is a problem that will die away in time as tech develops.

 

The fact is simply that we have to plan for what will happen and not what we hope doesn't.  Every game gets cheated and rigged, we just want to minimize the impact in as many places as possible to keep the game relevant and fun. 

Yes every game does get cheated. The moment you have a system there will be those who will attempt to play it, rather than the game. Though its less a matter of hoping for the best. It is that most people don't cheat. And some who do wouldn't want to lower their graphical settings. I've shown off Crowfall to quite a few people and many of them are turned off by the fact that it looks to bad graphically.

 

I am not here to argue the graphics, but that is a high point for a lot of people. I've played games where people suddenly quit going. "No sorry, can't stand this on low settings." Though again even if they do, I don't see this as game breaking. All it means, is that some people, might have a easier time spotting stealthers.

Edited by Acidstrider

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Meryk - Member

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Cannot remember the game, but my favourite stealth mechanic was based on draw distance; going into stealth mode reduced your draw distance for others to spot you. High stealth skill, shadows and not moving reduced it more, perception skills, lights and high movement speed increased it.

 

It meant that you could sneak up on people, but you had to do it carefully and plan your route and tactics, rather than invisibility button and roflstomp.

Casual to hardcore is a spectrum. Carebear to griefer is also a spectrum.

I'm in the middle of both.

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When I saw this thread, I thought about the "invisibility" skill in S4 League. I'm going to put up a thread about S4 as combat inspiration, but I might as well post here too on this subject.

 

In S4 league, while using the invisibilty skill, it drains from your SP (skill power) as all skills do. The skill itself makes you almost completely invisible while you're standing still, but you'll get more visible (less transparent) while you move. (Thinking of it, isn't that how the Spy Watches work in TF2 too?).

 

Also, with your example with Nova (same thing goes for Zerathul), the character IS visible. However there are almost no way of seeing it exept if you see when they cloak so you can follow them from there, so while the fact that they are transparent and not invisible are good, but being THAT transparent might be too transparent all the time. (No offense, and I know that might not be your point, I am just expressing my opinion on this).

 

Also, another idea that came to mind is being able to have different outline colours when a character is in stealth mode, so you got to choose the best one for the current environment and angle the enemy will be looking from when you cloak. What about it?

Edited by CyberWing89
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From the description from Shadowbane players, SB's Track power made enemy stealth impossible for a limited duration over a large radius around the tracker (assuming the tracker could unmask the hidden toon at all). This sounds like a reasonable hard counter. The shimmer effect is a soft counter (automatically worked in) so that the weak counters, like flare, would be more acceptable. If shimmer is exploitable, stronger counters can be implemented, and that's how JTC has done stealth in the past.

 

Apparently not you, but yes, many of us. Initiative and targeting are that important in PvP.

Track and reveal hidden were 2 separate powers... Also scouts had a short range see invis while they were running... The general gist of balancing was a scout could find the stealthed assassins and what not and pop them from stealth but couldn't toe to toe fight them.

"He's like Batman except without the moral compass" ~Juror during first innocent verdict 

 

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When you get the chance, check out the ghillie suit in Black Desert. Basically it hides your name and affiliation while worn and looks like a bush.

 

Bikeman Video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNxoi4pJqho

 

Now BD is already confirmed pay2win, but the ghillie suit in that game is what I wanted to show. That and the game is beautiful.

That is how you do good stealth mechanics; none of this perma invis crud, and it can't be negated with client gamma or other graphics settings.

 

You simply instead of making the player invisible, make them not look like a target!

 

 

Stealth has never been the issue and never will. The issue is that most games allow you to be stun locked as they come out of stealth.  

Or gave the stealth class so much burst coming out of stealth that the fight is over before the recipient realized they were being attacked. Then rip any durability the class has to shreds for "balance" as well as nerf their out of stealth damage so bad they become a crappy one trick pony that pisses people off constantly.

 

Stealth should be a tool in the box, not the entire class.

Edited by Overkillengine
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I must admit... when I saw the subject, I was thinking of actual camouflage. Like... Metal Gear Solid 4, Snake's stealth suit. He got different patterns to use that made him hard to actually see.

 

If you're still going to be "invisible" (even if you're technically not 100% invisible, but you still just vanish to some degree), then I don't have a problem with straight-up invisibility (the detection mechanics could deal with you becoming less and less invisible, based on distance, facing of the detector, etc.). But, I'd honestly like to see stealth that's actually just sneakiness and camouflage. Someone can't see you because you're concealing yourself with your surroundings, not with an ability that magically conceals yourself. Maybe you could even have a "pure invisibility" ability that was very short-duration, so that you could use it to move from cover to cover without being seen, but couldn't just jog around in an empty field, invisible to the naked eye until some other mechanic magically detected you.

 

I don't mind magic stealth, but I think it should be reserved for magic. It's a bit weird, to me, in fantasy games, when the woodsy Ranger guy actually turns invisible, but it's supposed to represent his ability to hide/blend in to his environment. Then, the Mage casts "Invisibility," and the exact same effect is achieved. I'm like "WHICH IS IT, WORLD?!" :)

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Some form of timed stealth or this might be better than in the mmo´s we know and play today. A timed stealth might be based on your endurance, so if you focus your character on having endurance you can stay in stealth for longer if you completly drain your self by stealthing you get a penalty in X (running, fighting, something) for a some duration. Would make the stealth classes have even more options or more things they have to consider when selecting there discipline and runes and what not.

Arrogance diminishes wisdom

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Some form of timed stealth or this might be better than in the mmo´s we know and play today. A timed stealth might be based on your endurance, so if you focus your character on having endurance you can stay in stealth for longer if you completly drain your self by stealthing you get a penalty in X (running, fighting, something) for a some duration. Would make the stealth classes have even more options or more things they have to consider when selecting there discipline and runes and what not.

 

If they're going the timed stealth route, i prefer they scrap out it entirely and focus on build another hide mechanic. I'm done with timed stealth for my entire life, ty GW2 for the bad taste.

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I am not really familiar with any tracking system. But sounds better than the dart toss (even if it is a educated dart toss), which is flare. Timed stealth?Hmmm.... I could live with that! Would depend on the duration though I imagine.

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Meryk - Member

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Yes that would be my solution. Normal settings get shimmering, wavey pattern, low settings only get a barely readable outline. Worst case scenario it is about on par with the average MMO. Best case it will combat the exploit and is a problem that will die away in time as tech develops.

 

Yes every game does get cheated. The moment you have a system there will be those who will attempt to play it, rather than the game. Though its less a matter of hoping for the best. It is that most people don't cheat. And some who do wouldn't want to lower their graphical settings. I've shown off Crowfall to quite a few people and many of them are turned off by the fact that it looks to bad graphically.

Okay, but pursuing that logic - if people are already worried about the way the game looks, why have pvp depend in part on how they set their graphics? If they already feel like the graphics aren't cool enough, won't they be even more bummed when someone tells them they should turn their settings even further down in order to make sure they spot stealthed enemies?

 

And as far as changing the way stealth looks at different graphics levels, that's not going to solve the problem at all. Not only is it still client-side and therefore vulnerable to hacks/mods/etc. but now you've got to worry about building and balancing two different stealth effects. Make the "low" one too hard to spot and people will be turning down their graphics in order to pvp competitively (and complaining about it); make the "high" one too hard to spot and you're double-penalizing players who already have to play with less-than-ideal graphics.

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If they're going the timed stealth route, i prefer they scrap out it entirely and focus on build another hide mechanic. I'm done with timed stealth for my entire life, ty GW2 for the bad taste.

Yeah, GW2 definitely cured me of playing stealth classes. Maybe that's a good thing?

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