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Karna

No invisibility, just camo.

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I just want plain old fashion stealth where their are those trackers who can sniff them out and the hidden that come out of the bush works and cut you down on your travels. Is that to much to ask? Can't we had Stealth vs. Detect match up? Say like 3 classes can get stealth and 3 classes can get Detect. or 2 each or one each whatever tickles your fancy. In a sense a NEED for specialty's instead of the ALL ROUNDER TYPES OF BUILDING WE SEE IN MMO'S. In a sense a MASSIVE ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS MATCH WITH LASERS, FLAMETHROWERS, AND RANDOM OTHER THINGS THAT COUNTER EACH OTHER. IS THAT TO MUCH TO ASK?!?!?!? IS IT! RAWR >:+%%------->>>> I shoot arrows.


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Wise words someone once to told me.Steal from the rich and give to thy self.

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80mxpKJ.jpg

Combinations:
Detector/Fighter can effectively attack everything, will reliably beat Detectors and Stealths, may sometimes beat Fighters
Detector/Stealth will not fight the Fighter, and can prey on Stealth without being preyed on in return.
Fighter/Stealth has engagement dictation and combat power, and can reliably outgun anything he doesn't outrun.

Edited by Psyentific

Hardcore gamer & tabletop enthusiast. Enjoys roleplaying, pretending to be stupid, and one-sided fun.

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In consider we will hopefully have weather effects which we can't just turn off in graphic options to get an in-game advantage or better visibility on the map.

I hope ACE carefully consider stealth in general. My point is to have the power or kind of spell ability to be completely invisible is huge in a strategic wargames like Crowfall.

Edited by mythx

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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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I think we have moved beyond pathetic invisibility. This game is about skillshots after all and invisibility should showcase your SKILL. AKA, no invisibility if you move. You want to be invisible in stealth? Fine, but you cannot move, cannot even tap your movement, even turning your character will give you away. All movement should create shimmers. This way you have to stalk and read your opponent and no just have a free pass. AKA you need to have skill to use it.


"Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful Nice."

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In anything else you try, you have to expend effort, for varying levels of results. Want to kill that guy over there? Better go at him and use combat abilities in an effective manner until he's dead and you aren't. Yet, somehow people have been okay with "Wanna be unseen by everyone? *Click* you are successful." for so long? I don't get it.

 

Invisibility perhaps has its place in the game, but why shouldn't hiding yourself be something you can actually try and fail at? And I don't mean "someone else's effortless ability magically counteracted your flawless stealth."


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To be honest, for stealth I would like to see the system have the person at 98% opacity when still or 100% opacity until you start to walk or run around, where its reduced to 90% for walking or 85% while sprinting.

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The problem with any visual-effect based stealth, things like character transparency, is that unless it's built right into the game (ie I can't lower my graphics and turn it off), then it's effectively moot.


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Predator stealth does not work well in games like this. You need high mobility and vertical gameplay.

 

Thats why the predator was in trees, why The Hidden Source mod, has jumping and dashes, and the environments are all really focused on lighting, at almost all levels.

 

You can't adapt the map, and the gameplay around those hurdles to really make predator stealth work at a high level. imo.

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However, if you are replacing your player model with a bush, tweaking the gamma does the other player no good. Done correctly, you still look like all the other bushes.

Conversley, a walking bush or rock is a dead giveaway. Try not to move while they can see you.

There is your play/counterplay: whom is paying more attention? As it should be.

Edited by Overkillengine

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However, if you are replacing your player model with a bush, tweaking the gamma does the other player no good. Done correctly, you still look like all the other bushes.

 

Conversley, a walking bush or rock is a dead giveaway. Try not to move while they can see you.

 

There is your play/counterplay: whom is paying more attention? As it should be.

I can get behind this. Its the same thing as a shimmer.

 

Frankly you can build it into your options so that if you mess with your graphics it also tweaks the stealth so that if you make your graphics worse you have a HARDER time seeing stealthed players by reducing your chances to see the shimmer, or twitching leaves, etc.


"Lawful Good does not always mean Lawful Nice."

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I have played stealth in many games, and honestly for an mmo the best thrills I got were UO's style of stealth.  

 

One skill for hide(about instant at gm and with a good connection) when out of combat and another skill for stealth, which could only be activated once successfully hidden.  Once stealth is activated you can only WALK a certain number of steps(think it was 7 at gm) before having to hit the stealth button again, which is on a recast and even at max skill had a chance to fail.  

 

Added to this people could be casting aoe's all around trying to reveal, or someone had the detect hidden skill maxed(worked as a pbaoe, medium range, not spammable recast).  Stealth took skill, planning, and luck, but paid off big and had some of the most epic cat and mouse games as well as ninja looting/ganking matches.

 

I believe a system similar to this would be pretty fun to play for both sides in this type of game.

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Predator stealth does not work well in games like this. You need high mobility and vertical gameplay.

 

Thats why the predator was in trees, why The Hidden Source mod, has jumping and dashes, and the environments are all really focused on lighting, at almost all levels.

 

You can't adapt the map, and the gameplay around those hurdles to really make predator stealth work at a high level. imo.

Well I gave you a example where it does work. Nosgoth is higher quality in most regards, graphics, mobility and lightning. Yet the Deciver a class with the tell tale predator shimmer, is not only one of the most popular classes, but it also damned effective.

 

There is something else that I notice a lot of people may be neglecting to consider.

When I was getting my drivers license, one of the things I did was sit down with a class of people and watch a instructional video. At a few points, a man in a full body gorilla suit would simply wander by in the background. When the instructor paused and asked if we had noticed anything odd about the video, to my shock in a class full of people only two noticed the giant gorilla's passing.

 

That was actually a experiment, demonstrating just how easy it is to be blind sided in traffic. Stealth in pvp though is not much different.

predator_camouflage.jpgIt is all good and well to look at this picture and say. Well I can obviously tell there is a predator there, so much for stealth. But in a game, you don't have the benefit of having the target in perfect focus for the camera. It is quite another beast entirely to spot this in a open living world, especially when your focusing on quite visible attackers or some other objective within the game.

 

Again going back to Nosgoth, this is not a open world, it takes place in a series of arenas. By pressing tab, you can see the enemies team selection, so you can know a deceiver is coming way ahead of time and prepare for it. Yet doing this, I have noticed a lot of peoples play style decrease in quality. They will expend so much effort, staring down the screen, twisting their camera around in search for that tell tale shimmer. That by the end of a match or two they feel mentally exhausted. This is assuming he is not completely butchered first, for allowing himself to be blind sided, while he is busy chasing imaginary phantoms in the corner of his screen.

 

And still, given the benefit of a small map, warning ahead of time of a stealthers presence and four people keeping a close watch, I have been surprised by the efficiency of some players. I will be in a pre-made, calling out orders, taking position, reporting enemy movement. And still, some of those bastards get behind enemy line and just butcher us. Alternatively, some of them hide just behind a corner, enough so a casual glance would not notice their shimmer. Once we approach, they attack. Its a lot more risky and skill demanding than the average stealth system and that is why I love it.

 

It requires you to put more thought into your strategy, but further more you can mess with a players head. In wow when there is a stealther on the prowl, you essentially go. "Well he could be anywhere, might as well just stand and guard the objective until I am zapped." In Nosgoth because you can see the stealther, it may spell your doom. One strategy I have employed is stealthing in obvious lighting, letting the enemy spot me. Most will instantly blow their cooldowns, desperate to get the first blow or out right kill me. I simply run back as my team charge in, their cool downs at the ready to be used.

 

Further more, you have people suicidally charging away from objectives rather than bunch up around it. Thinking. "Oh I saw something moving in the corner, if I chase after it, I can catch him before he has the chance of... Oh... The enemy captured the objective... Oh and now I am dead, because I rushed after a deceiver alone, into closed confines."

 

However, if you are replacing your player model with a bush, tweaking the gamma does the other player no good. Done correctly, you still look like all the other bushes.

 

Conversley, a walking bush or rock is a dead giveaway. Try not to move while they can see you.

 

There is your play/counterplay: whom is paying more attention? As it should be.

That actually might work quite well! Its not a MMO, but I've had a lot of fun with this mechanic in Original Sin. It is almost a mission statement for me, that when I bring someone new into the game, first thing I'll do is disguise myself as a rock in the middle of the street and see if my friend notice anything odd. Even caught a few people who are savy about the game with it.

 

And again on  the topic of being blind sided, I don't think most people would think to stop and search every random bush they come across. Also on the topic of messing with the enemies mind again, as a stealther, I would freaking love, seeing the enemy going from bush to bush, thinking. "Maybe this will be a stealther!"

Edited by Acidstrider

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Meryk - Member

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I'm in the same boat as MadLoota - I loved UO's stealth based on movement with a chance to fail and reveal yourself or a chance for your target to detect you.

Had a thief / fighter character and sneaking up on someone I wanted to try and steal from, or attack - I often would hold my breath in RL and kind of lean into the monitor.... something so simple drew me into the game that much more.

 

I am in the boat that full invisibility is not bad, but I don't think it should be one button can run around invisible forever.

 

Some ideas for a skill vs. magic spell

 

For a stealth skill - similar to the UO way of doing it. You use the skill, have a % to succeed depedning on your skill level. You succeed, cool, you are invisible.

Others may have some way to detect you as some archtypes should.

Also - the more you move, the more of a chance you no longer are hidden.

Stand still - you are good, no "checks"

The distance you travel - the more you move should have a higher risk of coming out of stealth. Moving faster / jumping increases the chance.

 

Magic would be pure time based for the spell duration no matter if you stand still or move around. Still let people detect by normal means.

 

Also - the game will have collision detection - could have it when a stealthed person bumps into a person - they are visible to that person.

Edited by Septimus

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I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but... what if stealth worked like in many action stealth games (usually with NPCs, though)? What I mean is, everyone has a stealth rating and a perception rating. And people would have, essentially, passive vision cones (invisible ones). So, when you stealth, you basically become invisible, 100%. But, if you're within the range of someone's perception for a certain amount of time, they can detect you.

 

Someone with awesome perception would have a much larger detection cone, and would detect a given stealther more quickly (very quickly if your stealth skill sucked, and much more slowly if your stealth skill was amazing.) Someone with terrible perception would have a very short detection cone and would be much easier to sneak past/up-to, even for a crappy stealther.


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Ah, that was not only a good example, of why I hate the standard stealth system in MMO's. But it also gave me a good laugh! Cheers.

 

 

I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but... what if stealth worked like in many action stealth games (usually with NPCs, though)? What I mean is, everyone has a stealth rating and a perception rating. And people would have, essentially, passive vision cones (invisible ones). So, when you stealth, you basically become invisible, 100%. But, if you're within the range of someone's perception for a certain amount of time, they can detect you.

 

Someone with awesome perception would have a much larger detection cone, and would detect a given stealther more quickly (very quickly if your stealth skill sucked, and much more slowly if your stealth skill was amazing.) Someone with terrible perception would have a very short detection cone and would be much easier to sneak past/up-to, even for a crappy stealther.

That could certainly be interesting. It has not really been discussed here. But I do know, I and several other people mapped out the exact distance it takes to be detected in wow and SWTOR. With that knowledge in hand, we were able to move around crowded areas without fear of detection. But if each player had different areas of detection... Well that alone could add some much needed tension.

Edited by Acidstrider

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Meryk - Member

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When I first saw this topic in the forum list... my first thought was... how silly.... add something like a Wonder Twins power of transforming into a barrel or bush or something else.  But, that's more of a disguise stealth.

 

Since it's still going on, I opened it up and actually enjoyed the discussion.  

 

Looking at the old SB videos, it appears that their prior implementation was more like a dimensional phase/plane/rift to where those that had max stealth and max detection were able to see each other run around and combat while in this mode.

 

I also like the "predator" style, although I'm not sure how well that will look with the chosen art style.  But, I would say that it's 100% stealth when standing still and predator opacity when moving, which the player becomes more visible the faster they move.

 

Anyway, I'm all for supporting an improved way of handling stealth than the traditional you either see me or not.  There needs to be a gray transitional flavor added too.  To where movement (any motion including emotes), collision (including other objects hitting a stationary stealth), and sound can affect the opacity of the player.  

 

Regarding art style, they can even add an opacity flicker effect during some of the transitions.  This should all be viable without affecting any of the models, animations, skins, etc...

 

Oh, and sorry to you 100% stealth lovers that think an AOE/Cone hit to the invisible face shouldn't expose you... even for a flickering second. 


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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That could certainly be interesting. It has not really been discussed here. But I do know, I and several other people mapped out the exact distance it takes to be detected in wow and SWTOR. With that knowledge in hand, we were able to move around crowded areas without fear of detection. But if each player had different areas of detection... Well that alone could add some much needed tension.

Yeah. Maybe there could be a limited ability to see detectors' vision ranges/cones. But, honestly, I think you should just have to feel it out.

 

Anyway, I'm all for supporting an improved way of handling stealth than the traditional you either see me or not.  There needs to be a gray transitional flavor added too.  To where movement (any motion including emotes), collision (including other objects hitting a stationary stealth), and sound can affect the opacity of the player.  

 

Regarding art style, they can even add an opacity flicker effect during some of the transitions.  This should all be viable without affecting any of the models, animations, skins, etc...

 

Oh, and sorry to you 100% stealth lovers that think an AOE/Cone hit to the invisible face shouldn't expose you... even for a flickering second.

Agreed. Now that you mention that, what if a way to detect people was simple effects? I mean, what if scouts or sentries could have the equivalent of a paint bomb, for example (I'm not saying go with a paint bomb... I'm just illustrating a concept), so that, if they think they catch a glimpse of someone stealthed in the area, they could chuck the bomb and douse the person with visible paint. Or, what if you can create mud or an oil slick, and see footsteps, or see them slide in the oil. Or, if a Frostweaver makes a frosty fog cloud, maybe you can see the person disturbing the fog.

 

Also, I love your signature, Nyt, :)

 

*Ilandel uses RESPOND! It's not very effective...*


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I actually love this approach... BUT... Ultimately, camouflage methods are typically defeated with adjustments to graphics settings, which are inevitable in gaming.  I haven't seen a single instance where one couldn't gain an advantage by turning their graphics down.  Another example of this is when FPS games use advanced multi-channel audio.  By adjusting your equalizer, you can actually hear footsteps from behind walls, and at extended distances, comparatively to most players.

Well, if you look at Black Desert videos, they actually make some effective use of camouflage in that game, with no stealth classes at all. All the characters had access to a crouch and high crawl movement mechanic and the grass completely covered them. The lack of nameplates also made camouflage viable, utilizing objects and foliage for camouflage and sneaking up on people. The issue with this that I see is that it would require the devs to add a lot more stuff that will most likely max out the graphics of the game, requiring players to use better equipment, which may hurt the game's accessibility.

 

While we're wishing for things, I'd like to see stealth be more based on the environment, just like real stealth and hiding. Here's the stealth mechanic I'd like to see in games:

 

Stealth classes stealth mechanic has a certain score that determined their level of transparency. For the sake of the example, we'll number it 1-5, with 1 being slightly translucent in the open, and 5 being total invisibility. Most classes would have a stealth score of 1 so they are somewhat stealthed, and could level their score to 3 depending on stat distribution, so there is always a chance to see them or recover from an attack. Movement would also cause stealthed characters to reduce their "stealth score" to a minimum of 1, thus movement and positioning becomes a factor as well.

 

Environmental factors in the game world will have a stealth score bonus, which is added to the players stealth score to the maximum of 5. These objects would vary their stealth score depending on what they were. For example, a bush may have a score of 1 while a tree has a score of 3. The score would also determine how far the stealthed player could travel from an object before losing their bonus (the bonus would decrease gradually the further players moved from the object), thus stealth would largely revolve around these environmental factors.

 

All characters would have a "perception cone" which would decrease a stealthed characters score (so the more eyes on a location would eventually break stealth). When stealthed players stood in a "preception cone". This would be done in halves to give stealthed players a chance to remain hidden, and again, players can distribute their stats to their "perception" to a max of 1.5 (0.5-1.5 to at least give stealthed players some modicum of hiding from solo players). Thus, players with maxed "perception" can expose lower leveled stealth characters.

 

Because this stat deals with objects, this causes players to become wary of their environments and what their environment could hide, somewhat similar to real life hide and seek. This also allows players to somewhat predict areas where stealth becomes more hazardous, while also limiting the inherent strength of stealth in terms of their freedom of movement. "Clearing" or "Reconning" environmental obstacles would become a core system for the players to prevent ambush or to set up an ambush. Stealthed players could hide an ambush under a tree so long as there was room for all of them, or players could group up and recon the tree to prevent an ambush. This could also work to strategy, such as whether to send a lone player to potentially their death to recon a location, or to divide your troops to send a "recon squad" to clear out potential ambush sites, or decide that a recon isn't worth the time or effort and risk a potential surprise attack. This can also create a niche role for players to include characters with high perception to recon environmental factors for guilds and parties while the rest of the party focuses on their combat abilities.

 

Anyways, that's just my 2 cents. I know that it's a complicated system that probably won't be included at this stage of the game, but thought I'd put it out there. I just really would like to limit the inherent imbalance that is associated with stealth in games, and any break from the traditional stealth mechanic is a welcome change. (please don't deck me over the numbers, I haven't exactly thought out the entire process, just forming a framework of an idea)

Edited by RKNM

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