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jtoddcoleman

01/13/15 - Character Creation Preview

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Crit... why crit... Just. plese someone explain to me excactly WHY we need critical strikes. are you allowing things to be built around it (your basically creating a lucky class) How, for the love of god how will you balance around that? crits too high nerf damage, steady damage of those who don't go crit too low, juggle stats on other abilities. crit goes off the chart, increase other classes to compensate..  I mean seriously guys. why even do that to yourselves. You come from games that have that problem built into their system. Yea everyone like the visceral "OMG BIG NUMBAS" but that doesn't last as long as a person feeling like they have the tools at their disposal to have a consistant fighting experience. No one likes losing because of a RNG. and people will feel underwhelmed when they build for a stat like crit and the crits don't happen!

 

If you can give me one good reason why it needs to be there, I'll stop about it. but there truly isnt any, its there so someone can feel good about themselves from a RNG. and thats just f****ng sad.

 

I will withhold judgement on dash count until I see what it does and how it's increased. but seriously, Warrior my whole life, can only dash so many times.

Edited by aeshura

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Judging by the background image of this website, and that warmth conversion stat... I'm guessing that the weather of the game changes (like the usual night and day cycle), and during winter, food is hard to find... 

Edited by xene

3d0d8f69-fe9b-4388-a220-3b2486e07d40_zps

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Good players can take into account RNG as long as it isn't an insta-kill.

 

Some players intentionally build their characters so RNG mostly flips to their favor and know how to perform if this is not the case.

 

If you like a PvP game where you can be killed anywhere, do you prepare for the "what if" of being outnumbered or are you surprised by it even though you know it's a possibility? Best to go play an arena PvP game if you don't want variability with stats or anything that people "think" is "unfair". An RPG needs active player skill through engaging gameplay AND passive player-skill through preparation.

I will agree that preperation is important as a player skill. but prepareing to be lucky? oh in an unfortunate situation I'm just going to chuck it up to the RNG gods. In a legitimately competative environment it's either Not used. Period. or it's relegated to the point of actually being the MOST VIABLE STAT.  Look at FPS's They don't have crit. that's straight up pvp if I ever had any. no crit, whatsoever. why do we have to look at MMO's and say okay if it's an RPG we use this, for what? prep for something else, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO BREAK A GAME BY REMOVING CRIT. IT HOWEVER IS VERY LIKELY TO WITH IT. look at most classes in an MMO that could be built with crits. and that includes your Moba's like LoL or DoTA. they had instance where they had to completely rework champs because crit just makes or breaks that class. Look at WoW Fire mages. Have crit, can win, no crit no win, no exceptions. Is that really a way you want to play?

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I will agree that preperation is important as a player skill. but prepareing to be lucky? oh in an unfortunate situation I'm just going to chuck it up to the RNG gods. In a legitimately competative environment it's either Not used. Period. or it's relegated to the point of actually being the MOST VIABLE STAT.  Look at FPS's They don't have crit. that's straight up pvp if I ever had any. no crit, whatsoever. why do we have to look at MMO's and say okay if it's an RPG we use this, for what? prep for something else, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO BREAK A GAME BY REMOVING CRIT. IT HOWEVER IS VERY LIKELY TO WITH IT. look at most classes in an MMO that could be built with crits. and that includes your Moba's like LoL or DoTA. they had instance where they had to completely rework champs because crit just makes or breaks that class. Look at WoW Fire mages. Have crit, can win, no crit no win, no exceptions. Is that really a way you want to play?

 

First of all... we're not going to play a MOBA. This is an MMORPG most likely with open-world PvP and most likely includes circumstances where you have very little chance of winning or your chances are skewed based on luck regardless of stats.

 

If you don't have the ability to target specific areas with your character, then yes I think you should have a crit chance/dodge/block/parry stats. Instead of actively training your body to to get a headshot 50% of the time on an FPS, you passively build your character to get that "headshot" 50% of the time while playing your archetype. This is what the dreaded termed stats based on RNG do. They simulate the likeliness of critical hits because only those that spend a lot of time and sweat will realistically be able to perform them often or perhaps they have innate talent. Blood and sweat can equate to finding all the correct components toward making critical damage OR working on your aim. Innate talent can equate to a class that makes critical damage easier OR by naturally being good with a controller. This is about playing a role and that is the point of EVERY RNG stat.

 

So how to counter this? A design I thought up for combat that isn't quite twitch, but does put critical attacks in the hand of the player is something like the "mario kart" scenario. You know when you start the race and press 'A' at the perfect time and you get a huge boost? A good player of that game can hit that almost every time. Almost.

 

Add variability in your swing (ESO/TES/DF) where you can hold your attack down and let go at the correct time to automatically perform a critical hit? Wait too long and you won't get it. Let go too early and same story. Something like that would put the player ACTIVELY in charge of this stat. You can do this with dodging and blocking while penalizing (mildly) failure to perform perfectly. But you don't build MMORPGs for twitch players...those are for FPS players, which SHOULD be and is a different genre like MOBA is as well. Save the active player skill for those games. Give the RPGs a sufficient amount of numbers and passive player skill. The issue with games these days is developers are catering to everyone across multiple genres and not just RPG players or just PvPers or just PvErs... the same issue that brings us to Crowfall.

 

I've played games that did crit well. It was reserved to specific classes on purpose and balanced accordingly. To maximize it should take everything from you and usually does in the games I've played that do it pretty well. ESO I basically had to make every piece of gear only give that stat/Lineage 2 was class specific. Lots of F2P games even did it better than WoW. You should really dedicate your character toward maximizing RNG for it to be intended and no longer really "luck" that you hit a crit. The luck ends up being the opposite. If you lose a 1 on 1 arena match to a lucky critical from someone who didn't spec for it, that's the same as the lucky head shots from across the map in Halo that bounce off the side of the wall (nooo that's all skill man). And it's also a 1 v 1 match and shouldn't be the point of an MMORPG in the first place.

 

TIP #1: To defend against critical hits... add critical defense... To combat dodging, add accuracy. To combat blockers, add armor piercing. This is preparation.

Edited by orious13

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RNG is very bad for a skill based game, i really dislike RNG maybe because RNG are the main feature of themepark games.

 

I prefer no critical, just normal combat, you ever hit when you swing or shoot a fireball, the damage is the same BUT your armour and enchantements will mitigate it based on stats. This is more easy to balance and everything involved only player skills not random factors generate by a system algoritm.

 

Also please, don't watering or change your character design because someone dislike how you make them, or dislike armours or robes on male on female avatars, continue with your original design like we see now in that screenshoot, i think they are perfect. When you claim that this game will not be for everyone i was very happy to hear this, stick with this statement strongly.
Listen to the community suggestion is ok as long are only only important matters like game mechanics, more important in a mmorpg then some plain textures.

Edited by kdchan

Archduchess Alice

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“More real. A game where decisions matter.” -  Crowfall

I dearly hope I am not extrapolating too far here, but does this mean that players, of any race, gender, archetype, etc.  electing to wear less than logical battle coverings will be penalized due to unrealistic defense?  For example, a player bearing their uncovered chest would be significantly more vulnerable to take critical damage or suffer stamina penalties the longer combat goes on due to the drastically less durable exposed skin as compared to battle armor.

 

“Something deeper than a virtual amusement park.” – Crowfall

Likewise, I dearly hope this means our eyes and minds will not be accosted by scantily clad characters and exploited characters as scenery.  The women as background decoration trope, for example, has been beaten to death, let’s move on to something else please.  Something deeper than a virtual amusement park for erotic stimuli please.

 

“More immersive.” – Crowfall

Exploitation repels quality players, both cutthroat, strategic visionaries and carebears alike.  It simply isn’t possible to be immersed in sexual desires and strategic combat at the same time.  History has countless examples of temptation spoiling good strategy, justness, and pureness.  Whether we are playing to crush or crowfalling, let’s do it with some dignity before we stab our friend in the back for the keys to his stronghold.

 

Eagerly awaiting to see the true character and boldness of your well respected team.

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First look worried coz same appearance as a MOBA 

 

That deer scratching my eyes.Yea know fantasy game but let's wear this dress and done! No please...
 

Creation points is a good idea as a mmorpg and

 

One last thing this face seems like something that made with play dough

Edited by saane2

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RNG can be fine for some mechanics.  Block/parry/dodge chance for instance, and even for hit or miss, provided that the tools are there for players to manipulate def/atr (for example) stats in combat fairly widely.  But a global crit strike/crit multiplier mechanic that applies to every attack/power/spell is a VERY blunt instrument that will hurt the ability to balance individual skills.  If you want something to have a high potential damage range, then design it that way (lightning spells are a typical example, can get very high damage, but also very low), but other skills should have a very tight potential damage range, and the typical RNG crit mechanic absolutely ruins the ability to have that kind of granularity.  In a competitive pvp game, there's no need for such a balance breaking system.  Please make it go away.


X88mIYV.jpg

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Seeing a lot of hate for RNG, I personally LOVE RNG, esp in Shadowbane, that allowed you to create some truly unique builds that were solely reliant on the ability to proc and stack DOTs/ burst with high hit rates.

 

Always loved it when I would roll up to a gank only to put out a measly amount of DPS, fooling the other player into thinking, "pff, this guy's awful, May as-well stay and fight him, no way I can loose this" and then suddenly WHAM! massive crits in a row.

 

also the RNG ability of hits either missing or hitting was great, there was no finite number or cases where "i'm definitely going to hit this guy" there was always a chance of a miss or hit, and boosting stats improved your odds.

 

that's not to say that there's no "skill" in combat, it's easy for a system to incorporate skill + RNG luck in combat, after all this isn't counter strike and for an MMO as large as shadowbane, even with today's tech and internet, twitch/skill gaming in an MMO is risky business where as basing a combat system primarily around RNG gives people with all types of hardware and connections a much more even playing ground, both for when you lagg AND the other player laggs.

 

For Example: Dota 2 incorporates RNG perfectly, where 30% crit chance IS 30% over 10/100/1000 hits, it's a TRUE 30% and not a RNG 30% so that when you go that route you know you're going to get 30% and long periods of misses/hits are extremely rare (which makes it even greater when they finally do happen!)

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RNG can be fine for some mechanics.  Block/parry/dodge chance for instance, and even for hit or miss, provided that the tools are there for players to manipulate def/atr (for example) stats in combat fairly widely.  But a global crit strike/crit multiplier mechanic that applies to every attack/power/spell is a VERY blunt instrument that will hurt the ability to balance individual skills.  If you want something to have a high potential damage range, then design it that way (lightning spells are a typical example, can get very high damage, but also very low), but other skills should have a very tight potential damage range, and the typical RNG crit mechanic absolutely ruins the ability to have that kind of granularity.  In a competitive pvp game, there's no need for such a balance breaking system.  Please make it go away.

A crit is like your headshot in any FPS game except this time unless you add hitboxes there, you simulate the effect. You can simulate this affect by having a skill that's literal an attack to the head or legs (to slow enemies). My RPG idea didn't have the crit chance stat and put it in the hands of the player, but the RPGs that do crit correctly force players to allot their stat points every level. You won't crit unless you spend half your leveling time adding to dexterity for instance. This gimps your other attributes because unless you spend all your time on it, it isn't and shouldn't work well. If you can't allocate your stat points, it should be dependent on your weapon of choice.

 

We're not going to play an arena game as far as I'm concerned. I'm guessing you consider a "competitive pvp" game a MOBA or a CS or CoH? If that's the case it's the wrong genre. Devs need to stop trying to build a virtual world around arena games. Unless Todd wants to make an eSport out of this concentrate on the roleplaying aspects and not the 1 v 1 /5 v 5 "perfectly fair" eSport games.

Edited by orious13

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I feel as though the character creation preview thread has derailed to people feeling sour in regards to RNG and people feeling sour about the "childish" (not childish at all) art style...


Shelter

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I will agree that preperation is important as a player skill. but prepareing to be lucky? oh in an unfortunate situation I'm just going to chuck it up to the RNG gods. In a legitimately competative environment it's either Not used. Period. or it's relegated to the point of actually being the MOST VIABLE STAT.  Look at FPS's They don't have crit. that's straight up pvp if I ever had any. no crit, whatsoever. why do we have to look at MMO's and say okay if it's an RPG we use this, for what? prep for something else, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO BREAK A GAME BY REMOVING CRIT. IT HOWEVER IS VERY LIKELY TO WITH IT. look at most classes in an MMO that could be built with crits. and that includes your Moba's like LoL or DoTA. they had instance where they had to completely rework champs because crit just makes or breaks that class. Look at WoW Fire mages. Have crit, can win, no crit no win, no exceptions. Is that really a way you want to play?

I agree with ya. Even in games like Wizard it is a pain because even if you get lucky enough to crit, the boss or even the mobs just block it so what's the point? It turns out being a normal hit anyway. The game just cancels it out. Waste of time if you ask me. 

Edited by chrissy the blesser

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I feel as though the character creation preview thread has derailed to people feeling sour in regards to RNG and people feeling sour about the "childish" (not childish at all) art style...

What is happening, and is understandable in the game of rampant speculation, is that people are using what they played in the past as a filter for assumptions about a rendering.  Some are thinking combat in the realm of 1 v 1 or at most 5 v 5 and not thinking about the mechanics of what truly takes place in 300 v 300 fight, because they have never experience it. Others are looking at it from at it's smallest 10 v 10 to that huge 300 to 300 fight. The problem it seems to me is that we don't know yet the devs vision for how large GvG or Siege PvP is. If they envision limiting Siege participation in someway to say 20 on each side at max than combat will be balance for the small scale (this includes combat style as well), OTOH if they envision grand battles on the 300 v 300 scale than it will have a combat system designed and balance for that.

 

The other thing is people with certain games int he past are going" argh looks like a Moba" because they haven't play any or very little of games that had that type of character creation screen. Then you have others going "No that is a MMORPG with vast hidden customization" because they played games that were that way.

 

We are just inferring the future from the focal point of our own pasts.

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I agree with ya. Even in games like Wizard it is a pain because even if you get lucky enough to crit, the boss or even the mobs just block it so what's the point? It turns out being a normal hit anyway. The game just cancels it out. Waste of time if you ask me. 

 

Bosses are different than players. In Lineage 2 some bosses were weak against specific weapon types that were meant to critical. Some bosses were strong against them. It's up to the player to plan for the correct circumstance. If you are "lucky enough to get a crit" then you shouldn't be focusing on that stat, probably weren't, so of course it cancels out.

 

When up against players, most people don't enjoy putting on defensive stats except maybe health. They max out DPS...dps dps dps. Easiest way to fight a DPS enthusiast is to be resistant to them so in that case you intentionally make your character able to fight against the critical or the high damage mage by stacking critical resistance or magic resistances. It's all about how you build up your character. There's always a rock to scissors and a scissors to paper. The issue comes when something is overpowered. If you don't like critical, the game's you play are doing them wrong or you didn't/can't spec to it. If you can't spec to it in some way it's useless.

 

What is happening, and is understandable in the game of rampant speculation, is that people are using what they played in the past as a filter for assumptions about a rendering.  Some are thinking combat in the realm of 1 v 1 or at most 5 v 5 and not thinking about the mechanics of what truly takes place in 300 v 300 fight, because they have never experience it. Others are looking at it from at it's smallest 10 v 10 to that huge 300 to 300 fight. The problem it seems to me is that we don't know yet the devs vision for how large GvG or Siege PvP is. If they envision limiting Siege participation in someway to say 20 on each side at max than combat will be balance for the small scale (this includes combat style as well), OTOH if they envision grand battles on the 300 v 300 scale than it will have a combat system designed and balance for that.

 

The other thing is people with certain games int he past are going" argh looks like a Moba" because they haven't play any or very little of games that had that type of character creation screen. Then you have others going "No that is a MMORPG with vast hidden customization" because they played games that were that way.

 

We are just inferring the future from the focal point of our own pasts.

 

This is true, but Todd said we're supposed to be discussing what we think this game is while he sits back and cackles maniacally at the forum PvP sieging.

Edited by orious13

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What is happening, and is understandable in the game of rampant speculation, is that people are using what they played in the past as a filter for assumptions about a rendering.  Some are thinking combat in the realm of 1 v 1 or at most 5 v 5 and not thinking about the mechanics of what truly takes place in 300 v 300 fight, because they have never experience it. Others are looking at it from at it's smallest 10 v 10 to that huge 300 to 300 fight. The problem it seems to me is that we don't know yet the devs vision for how large GvG or Siege PvP is. If they envision limiting Siege participation in someway to say 20 on each side at max than combat will be balance for the small scale (this includes combat style as well), OTOH if they envision grand battles on the 300 v 300 scale than it will have a combat system designed and balance for that.

 

The other thing is people with certain games int he past are going" argh looks like a Moba" because they haven't play any or very little of games that had that type of character creation screen. Then you have others going "No that is a MMORPG with vast hidden customization" because they played games that were that way.

 

We are just inferring the future from the focal point of our own pasts.

Yep...

 

And as I said in a previous post, if people really want more information.. Click on any of the redposters and go to their profile and look at their reponse's to topics... You'll get answers to alot of your questions... Such as 1.... this is an MMORPG... there will be character customization... anyone who registered through this website day one is apart of Beta Group 5.... we will receieve a full reveal of the game in 38 days... they are not yanking our chain.


Shelter

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It looks amazing so far. I do prefer this "cartoonish" art-style over a more realistic one, not only because it makes the game seem smoother, but because the graphics take much more time to get old (see WoW, for example). Anyways, I'm really hyped for this game, never played a PvP-centric MMO before and I'm hoping to see a lot of massive battles and wars within Crowfall. Keep up the good work, guys!

 

P.S.: The hype train is real!

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