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jtoddcoleman

01/13/15 - Character Creation Preview

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Its not really random though. The player is the one by the choices they make that determines what their RNG is. If one wants more crit % then you spec and gear for it. The results of a battle should never be solely determined during the battle, at least not in RPG type game. In an RPG there is character building, progression and preparation that goes into it as well. So the players impact is from BOTH how he builds his character and how he plays during combat.

 

RNG is random enough that it creates unpredictable outcomes, even if those outcomes can be influenced. And even accepting the premise that "the results of a battle should never be solely determined during the battle" as true, this doesn't at all justify the need for RNG. A game can utilize pre combat preparations without relying on randomized combat systems. 

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Passively (this is player actions, but NOT active gameplay. RPGs should have both types.): To counter crit... add crit defense. To count dodge... add accuracy. To count blocker...you can add crit or add armor piercing.

 

Actively (this is the only thing you want in your game): You'll know pretty quickly whether someone is good at criticals. If you're good with criticals you SHOULD be bad with other things or the game is doing it wrong. Like I said before. Unless you're getting instakilled, focus on what parts of the character are vulnerable. Usually these players are weak armored and have forefeitted a lot to make criticals viable. It's the same way you play any game where you don't know the capabilities of your opponent. If they don't spec for it, critical should be pretty weak and a non-issue.

 

Your solution of countering one RNG system with another will only compound the problem and exaggerate the effect of unreliable outcomes. Moreover you have failed to justify the value of an RNG based combat system at all. Yes naturally a player will make trade offs for their strengths and weakness, but this will be true regardless of whether the game contains RNG. Stay on topic - it's a pretty simple argument. RNG creates unreliability in PvP, which reduces the impact a players actions and choices have on the outcome of the battle. I would argue this is always a bad thing as it's less rewarding (from both players perspectives) and limits players ability to showcase their skill.

Edited by fats

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Fats! good to see an og OPP around.

 

At least on RNG would like to see something like say procs on weapons like in sb , it does make it spicy in pvp , yes unreliable but per say when back to back procs happen it can turn the tide of battle pretty quick. 

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Well, I was really excited hearing about Raph Koster working on this, but the cartoonish art style is not for me , I'm afraid...I still remain interested for the sake of SWG -like crafting systems mentioned, we will see.

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RNG is random enough that it creates unpredictable outcomes, even if those outcomes can be influenced. And even accepting the premise that "the results of a battle should never be solely determined during the battle" as true, this doesn't at all justify the need for RNG. A game can utilize pre combat preparations without relying on randomized combat systems. 

The impact of combat is always in the players hands thats the point. With RNG the player is the one who picks the spec and gear thus they select their own RNG so to speak. It being unpredictable to a degree is what lots of players find exciting. Knowing how much damage your abilities will always do and it becoming just a twitch fight sounds boring (which why I don't play much FPS and the like).

 

Being an RPG there is nothing wrong as I see with having BOTH skill and character building being determining factors of combat prowess.

Edited by pang

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Pretty cool stuff. The game so far reminds me of another game in development titled Camelot Unchained. Now I have two interesting games to watch.

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(snip)

 
P.S. btw, don't take any of these numbers as gospel.  Many of these values will change (probably have already) -- and in fact, the scale will even change -- as the various systems snap into focus.

 

 

What is that deer thing?

A druid-like class? Since that is supposed to be archetypes?

Are the classes race restricted?

 

And what is "warmth conversion"??

 

And "hunger resistance" means one has to eat or else ... (there be dragons)?

Edited by wincel

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Alright so could I get some clarification on this;

 

Is picking your archetype picking only your base class and then you pick a promotion class later with race selection done separately, Or is picking your archetype effectively picking your race and base class?

 

Would this then mean that for me to play as a Champion, for example, I would be required to play as a fighter (or whatever their given class was)? 

 

I apologize if this has already been answered.

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I wonder.... Will the playable classes/characters be able to do just the same things(in the end)? Like priests tanks or Rogues throwing healing pots on the Wizard Main tank? Too many mmos have tons of classes that in the end and by crunching numbers etc does the exact same thing or even better you can have a button that changes your skills/armor so you can have one toon thats able to do do eveything just as good as any other class in game? Im just curious, and i would love to pay a fair bit of dollars to play a game in somewhat way that the early version of everquest was before sony bought and ruined the game imho. Just a few coppers and ramblings from an old fart.

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I feel like I am way behind on this but better late than never!

 

There is so much to love about this image. 

 

16 starting races, promotion classes, statistics that include some really cool ones and more off the page not seen....

 

WOW....


Tanom of the WhiteWalkers

 

iWQCpyx.gif

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ooooo this looks really interesting :) love the art style and from the looks of it this brings in a lot of never before seen attributes to your character. Can't wait to play this!!!!!!

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OK, so after revealing the Centar today lets try to figure out these Archetypes.....

 

1. Human Rogue

2. Human Knight

3. Giant 

4. Human Mage

5. Human Templar

6. Centar

7. Elf

8. Kobold, Racoon, Badger.....hard to say

9. Stag

10. Dark Elf, Moon Elf

11. Dryad

12. Dwarf

Edited by Tanom

Tanom of the WhiteWalkers

 

iWQCpyx.gif

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The impact of combat is always in the players hands thats the point. 

 

No, the indisputable point is when RNG enters the equation the impact of combat is no longer solely in the players hands, it is then at least partially in the "hands" of an algorithm.

 

With RNG the player is the one who picks the spec and gear thus they select their own RNG so to speak. It being unpredictable to a degree is what lots of players find exciting. Knowing how much damage your abilities will always do and it becoming just a twitch fight sounds boring (which why I don't play much FPS and the like).

 

That a player can make out of combat choices to influence in combat RNG is no more relevant now than the the first time you said it. Nowhere in that is contained an objective argument as to why RNG is in any way beneficial or necessary to achieve meaningful character customization. 
 
I also don't accept the false dichotomy presented between a game of chance (RNG) and a game of reaction response ("twitch fighting"). Would you not agree that chess and football are games of intricate strategy and meaningful choices? An MMO doesn't have to be different, but RNG certainly isn't the answer. If occasionally a chess piece moved to a random square or the football veered in an odd direction mid-air by someone with a remote control, would that add value to those games? Do you think it would negatively or positively affect the strategies and meaningful choices of the players? 
 
The only thing you've said remotely close to an argument is that you subjectively find the unpredictability of RNG "exciting". Yes well I'm sure people find slot machines exciting too, but it also isn't an actual accomplishment or demonstration of skill in any way whatsoever when players of those machines win something. Nor is that reward particularly earned, as compared to a chess or Superbowl championship. 
 
The slot machine is something that happens to you, almost entirely independent of your actions. It could have happened to anyone else just as easily had they sat down at that machine at that particular time instead. By contrast winning a chess tournament or the Superbowl is something you earn as a result of your actions. Another player would not necessarily have succeeded in your "shoes" because they inevitably would have made different choices and it's those choices which determined the outcome. This makes the victory so much more rewarding and is also the thing that separates players by their skill level. 
 
If the developers of this game aspire to enable players to reach the pinnacle of their skills and test them against one another in the purest fashion, RNG would and should never be a factor.

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No, the indisputable point is when RNG enters the equation the impact of combat is no longer solely in the players hands, it is then at least partially in the "hands" of an algorithm.

 

 

That a player can make out of combat choices to influence in combat RNG is no more relevant now than the the first time you said it. Nowhere in that is contained an objective argument as to why RNG is in any way beneficial or necessary to achieve meaningful character customization. 
 
I also don't accept the false dichotomy presented between a game of chance (RNG) and a game of reaction response ("twitch fighting"). Would you not agree that chess and football are games of intricate strategy and meaningful choices? An MMO doesn't have to be different, but RNG certainly isn't the answer. If occasionally a chess piece moved to a random square or the football veered in an odd direction mid-air by someone with a remote control, would that add value to those games? Do you think it would negatively or positively affect the strategies and meaningful choices of the players? 
 
The only thing you've said remotely close to an argument is that you subjectively find the unpredictability of RNG "exciting". Yes well I'm sure people find slot machines exciting too, but it also isn't an actual accomplishment or demonstration of skill in any way whatsoever when players of those machines win something. Nor is that reward particularly earned, as compared to a chess or Superbowl championship. 
 
The slot machine is something that happens to you, almost entirely independent of your actions. It could have happened to anyone else just as easily had they sat down at that machine at that particular time instead. By contrast winning a chess tournament or the Superbowl is something you earn as a result of your actions. Another player would not necessarily have succeeded in your "shoes" because they inevitably would have made different choices and it's those choices which determined the outcome. This makes the victory so much more rewarding and is also the thing that separates players by their skill level. 
 
If the developers of this game aspire to enable players to reach the pinnacle of their skills and test them against one another in the purest fashion, RNG would and should never be a factor.

 

Well bottom line is we already know RNG will be a factor in this game. Just look at the stat sheet in the OP. No amount of arguing or bad irl analogies with change that now. The game won't be for everyone as the devs have stated.

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