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Currency in Crowfall: Why I Don't Want To Be a Goat Trader

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I really want the full barter system and the idea of crafting coins and making them an inventory item feels wrong. I will probably not be using them for my trade unless I absolutely had to. 

 

If they do it right, then coins are just another item type to barter.  It shouldn't make a difference except that some things are easier to carry.

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how to determine the value of crafted item when we have the coin to trade? and how many copper coin equivalent to 1 silver coin or 1 gold coin? if it like tradition mmo which 100 copper coins = 1  silver coin, then we still need to wait to figure out how many coin we'll get from 1 ore 

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how to determine the value of crafted item when we have the coin to trade? and how many copper coin equivalent to 1 silver coin or 1 gold coin? if it like tradition mmo which 100 copper coins = 1  silver coin, then we still need to wait to figure out how many coin we'll get from 1 ore 

 

For all we know, the rule sets of each campaign could alter that determination.  Gold could be rare in one and then abundant in another.

 

I don't think it will be easy to say things like 100 copper = 1 silver, 100 silver =1 gold.

 

Also it hasn't been mentioned but would we be able to turn coins back into bars to use in crafting? Just in case we run low on bars while trying to do a crafting job.

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how to determine the value of crafted item when we have the coin to trade? and how many copper coin equivalent to 1 silver coin or 1 gold coin? if it like tradition mmo which 100 copper coins = 1  silver coin, then we still need to wait to figure out how many coin we'll get from 1 ore 

 

Supply and Demand Economics.  Based on that, you can set a barter price that others would be willing to accept for your item.

 

For example, in ArcheAge, there were demand phases that a server went through when it first launched.  Wood was the first in high demand, because players needed it for the basic ship and house.  Then, stone was in higher demand for the larger ships, larger houses, and castle walls.

 

In Crowfall, at release, everyone will need at least the basic armor set and weapons.  Then, they will need the resources within the CW for building and stronghold upgrades.  Then, it will be a cycle for replacement gear and further building upgrades, etc... It would be a waste of resources to convert into coins within a CW.  Coins really only hold value to what Ace requires for their tax payments and EK item store.  They hold no real value within the CW.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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The main question for ACE is do they want their game to be PvP focused or Economy focused.

 

The main problem with incorporation a barter system is that its gonna drive a good portion of the PvP player base away from the game. Some people who want to focus on purely PvP wont want to spend more then a couple minutes buying gear and materials from shops/players (And that time is typically just finding the weapon or gear they want). This is where the barter kicks them in the rear, because when you finally find that gold great axe that is in the upper tier of quality and want to buy it your screwed if you dont have the exact currency you need to buy it (Ie you have 10 goats but it cost 3 pigs). Now this player is gonna have to run to multiple other shops (Unless they get lucky and find a shop with excess pigs to trade for goats, because even shops with currency trade do not have infinite currency for trading [and could have the current exchange rate wrong if not updated frequently], if another person got there before them and traded for all but 1 pig they gotta run around more). Then run back to the original shop to buy this axe.

 

Not every person has a Masters degree in Economics and alot of them probably dont wanna deal with the hassle of constantly haveing to know the current exchange rate of each and every item compared to every other possible currency item.

 

This is why a basic currency system would probably be best, because everything will have a set exchange rate (Ie. Cents to Dollars or Bronze -> Silver -> Gold) That way you players that wanna focus on PvP only need to search for what they want at a price they can afford (or are willing to pay) and then they can get right back to their combat.

 

Prices will still rise and fall based off of Supply and Demand weither you use a Barter system or a Basic Currency system, the only difference is with a standard currency each player always has access to their total amount of wealth (if 100 bronze = 1 silver and 100 silver = 1 gold then if i have 10,000 bronze then i can buy something worth 1 gold) whereas with a barter economy you can have 50 of the most expensive currency, but unless you can find a place to trade down you can only purchase items with what you have on hand (Ie. Cows are best currency and are currently worth 50 pigs and 1000 goats, well you cant buy anything that costs 50 pigs or 1000 goats or even 100 pigs or 20 goats, because you only have cows).

 

Also another reason a basic currency probably works better is because it can act as a pseudo-barter economy too. Lets say this Iron Shield is worth 2 gold and if i know that a Gold Great axe is worth 2 Gold then trading those two items can be done rather than exchanging money. Or we could say my shield is worth two gold and a copper dagger is worth 50 Silver, so right then and there a trade could be made; 4 Copper daggers and 1 iron Shield, because there is no inconsistency in exchange rate. Then its up to the person who got the daggers to sell them while they are still worth what they are worth

 

A Currency economy can encompass a barter economy, but a barter economy cannot encompass a currency economy.

 

It really doesnt matter to me, i like the concept of the game and ill play it probably for a long while no matter what economy it chooses. But other people have their own opinions. But if the game is supposed to be PvP focused (which im pretty positive it is, cause thats the vibe ive been getting), then focus on what PvPers want not what economy majors want.

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There's no reason you can't have both, and in fact I'd argue that economics in a PVP game is just another form of PVP.

 

People can go shopping at WalMart without needing a degree in supply chain logistics. Well-organized guilds will make it easy for their members to acquire the gear they need.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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There's no reason you can't have both, and in fact I'd argue that economics in a PVP game is just another form of PVP.

 

People can go shopping at WalMart without needing a degree in supply chain logistics. Well-organized guilds will make it easy for their members to acquire the gear they need.

 

I agree its all about organization and the system will follow suit with very little hard economic controls.


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KoS Webpage / We are Hardcore Gamers but welcome Casuals / TeamSpeak 3, Server address: kosteamspeak.com

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A bunch of kids afraid to jump in the pool. It's ok little guy just let it happen. Iteration is not a linear process but more like a flow chart of awesomeness where the question is asked "Is this badass?" ----> If YES continue <-----If NO start over.

Edited by KRIPTIK

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Although sort of a necro I felt it'd be important to throw in my 2 cents regarding the idea of established currency (these forums don't move very fast if at all during these stages of development so it shouldn't be a problem).

 

The issue with 'gold' from D2 is that it isn't used for anything and isn't backed by anything. This makes it impossible to remove from the economy and worthless as a currency. 

 

While PoE prevents this by not having a formal currency, chaos orbs just took its place and serves as the game's gold. In PoE however it has its own problems. Chaos orbs are not readily available and cannot be split into small currencies. While other items were meant to serve this purpose their values fluctuate too much and there is no real agreement on what could serve as a secondary currency if anything. It makes the whole system clunky and hurts commerce. In addition any non-consumable item that's not worth at least 1 chaos orb is lost in a weird zone of near worthlessness, and often can't be used to make something else more attractive. 

 

The solution is, of course, to have a currency that's promoted through its use as such, and has a backing in real value. In addition to prevent inflation it would have to follow similar rules with regards of exporting. I feel the best way of doing this would be in the same way we did things before we had paper currency. In coinage. Any metal ore could be forged into coins, which are promoted as a currency by being stack-able significantly more than the resource that births it, but is also backed in that it can be smelted back into its respective ore at a negative exchange rate (such that any ore that becomes coin returns to ore in less quantity that had been used). The values with respect to eachother would fluctuate based on the value of their respective ores, it'd solve the arkwardness of PoE currency, it would be easily broken into lesser ores, and it would have a way out of the economy through export rules as well as being turned back into the ore that backs it.

 

They've already hinted toward a similar system as this by mentioning how there would be a stack-able currency (the video they mention it in is posted somewhere in this thread if anyone needs the source) that plays by the same inventory rules as any other item. 

 

With regards to exporting things other than coins, I don't see why they can't have a way to allow coins to be brought in separate from items. Such that we may take up to X coins, and if we want to make more than that we need to fill the rest of our exports with items of value. It's still an item, it still plays by the same rules, but for export they're limited in a way. And with a negative exchange between ore and coins it'd usually be more profitable to bring resources and materials back to EK anyway. The idea of a full barter system sounds great at first, but what happens in the end is that it just boils down to currency that's clunky and awkward to commerce with. 

 

And as mentioned just a few posts above mine a system that uses currency can also serve as a bartering system in that products can be reduced to its value in a standard commodity. Just as in path of exile two items of equal weight of chaos orbs can be exchanged because their value is indifferent from one another (provided that the ease of selling is roughly equal), except of course it's in coins.

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Barter system works better because then as said "money" (trade goodies/community chosen material) have another usage so as said money doesn't stack only for paying for things but is used for crafting something usable, which reduce amount of that "money" from the world. That reduces inflation

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https://crowfall.com/en/news/coin-of-the-realm/

 

In addition, having some universal value system seems likely, maybe even necessary, if only to make import and export rules make sense. Even if those values can't be converted directly into the currency, know that 400 units of Oak is worth 800 "export points" should give the economy a baseline for trade. You could even, in theory, set up your automatic merchant thralls to sell an item for "any combination of goods totaling 500 export points." Since export limits are a percentage, it would make sense to want anything and everything to serve as the "lost" percentage of your export, even if it's market value in the EK is nothing (iron daggers.)

Edited by Antifinity

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There's no reason you can't have both, and in fact I'd argue that economics in a PVP game is just another form of PVP.

 

People can go shopping at WalMart without needing a degree in supply chain logistics. Well-organized guilds will make it easy for their members to acquire the gear they need.

This is vital. In a game like this which is both pvp and has destructible items, one would imagine a good guild would have an armory for guild members to pull from. They have mentioned that everything will eventually wear and tear and break. So its possible that during a long battle you would need not only a hefty supply of vessels but armor and weapons to make you viable in combat!


The Shipwreaked Pirates

Hail to The King Baby.

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Eve seems to handle being an economy and pvp game pretty well.  CFs pvp will be different since it isnt ship to ship combat but I can see how the basic mechanic would work after playing Thunderdome.  


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This topic has been a real joy to read and I look forward to see how this "coin of the realm" idea will work out in the game.

We have to realize that this topic must have had a myriad of iterations over at ACE with questions and what-ifs that have been answered according to their design goals.

 

The main question for ACE is do they want their game to be PvP focused or Economy focused.

 

I don't think so. I think the design goal is to make one heavily intertwined with the other (A bit like EVE) to make either much more significant, relevant and fun.

Edited by whiplash174

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1 hour ago, ZeulSaijin said:

it is weird indeed .. they say players( crafters) will sell their goods in shops , OK and waht u give them in exchange if there will be no currency ?!

You should do some digging in the FAQ's, not resurrecting age old threads.

The blue dust is going to be crafted into currency, and used for many things, including taxes and paying thralls for production.

Odds are they will add more sinks than that.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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4 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

You should do some digging in the FAQ's, not resurrecting age old threads.

The blue dust is going to be crafted into currency, and used for many things, including taxes and paying thralls for production.

Odds are they will add more sinks than that.

 

I dig allot and somewhere say that ore (copper ,silver,gild) will be turned in coins .. and those coins will be some kind of currency 

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Always love when people resurrect this thread. It makes me wonder what exactly these people are doing to even find them. This had to be buried under 200 pages of newer content.

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4 minutes ago, scree said:

Always love when people resurrect this thread. It makes me wonder what exactly these people are doing to even find them. This had to be buried under 200 pages of newer content.

Guy joined three days ago, and already has a so many negative comments, thread starts, and opinions about the game, it's actually a bit impressive.

It's like he is totally dedicated to proving he is a bull in a china shop as quickly as possible.

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