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TullyAckland

01/13/15 - City Siege Concept

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As far as the art style, the more I think about it, the more I'm ok with the comic-book direction.  Reason being performance.  If they're wanting to deliver massive sieges of the scale hinted at in the concept art teaser, I'd rather take a sacrifice to the graphics in favor of performance. 

 

who really gives an aerial fornication intersecting a rotating pastry about the fewkin' ART!!!

 

yeah, graphics are nice....but give me good Mechanics and an open World and i could care less if it's stick figures fighting in a bare cubist environment

 

could just be me...

 

Excelsior!


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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who really gives an aerial fornication intersecting a rotating pastry about the fewkin' ART!!!

 

yeah, graphics are nice....but give me good Mechanics and an open World and i could care less if it's stick figures fighting in a bare cubist environment

 

could just be me...

 

Excelsior!

 

 

Put me in this man's boat


The Sundered Guard-"Nature's Sword, the People's Shield"-Ranger's Brotherhood of Shadowbane, Mourning Server

Listen to CrowCast-A Crowfall Podcast
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ok..but fair warning ...

 

YOU are the cabin boy

 

just sayin'....

 

Excelsior!

 

 

I'm sure there's plenty of others we can find for that role. Maybe some of the Wizard 101 folk. Me, I'll just cut you up more than you'd find comfortable 


The Sundered Guard-"Nature's Sword, the People's Shield"-Ranger's Brotherhood of Shadowbane, Mourning Server

Listen to CrowCast-A Crowfall Podcast
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Can't give everything away for free the first day.

 

Of course not, but I'd rather they kept the pretty pretties and dropped some knowledge on us. Useful knowledge. Ah well.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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I'm sure there's plenty of others we can find for that role. Maybe some of the Wizard 101 folk. Me, I'll just cut you up more than you'd find comfortable 

 

can't threaten meh with a good time, sailor....

 

but still...yeah...Sieges > graphics, imo

 

Excelsior!


FIQw0eP.png

let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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I know it isn't the most appreciated art style, but I actually connect very much with the cartoony look. I am excited to see more from you guys!


"Not all who wander are lost."

-J.R.R. Tolkien

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Heres hoping they can pull off sieging PvP where past games have failed or not hit the mark.

 

SB devs involved...i'm betting they will get sieges working well, especially after the SB horde bangs on it in beta

 

we WILL break the system, exploit all flaws (and report them, of course) and come up with stuff the Devs never thought about in the Design room...

 

that's what we do, and both they and we have a track record to go on

 

hell, i was involved inthe first siege in Darkfall...our lil 10 man Guild city was sieged by a MUCH larger force...we called in some friends, and successfully defended

 

but it exposed the Flaws in DF...not only could you not build the Cioty the way you wanted it, but you had to build it in the order the Code demanded....so a useless thinghad to be built before...say, walls..ffs

 

stuff like that, and the rampant ease of hax got me out of there a month after release, and great as the potential for that Game was...i neve rlooked back

 

why?

 

cuz Sieges weren't a fraction of what they were in SB

 

nuff said?

 

Excelsior!


FIQw0eP.png

let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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who really gives an aerial fornication intersecting a rotating pastry about the fewkin' ART!!!

 

yeah, graphics are nice....but give me good Mechanics and an open World and i could care less if it's stick figures fighting in a bare cubist environment

 

could just be me...

 

It's not just you.  (I have to laugh when kids dis the graphics in one game but then go back to Minecraft.) 


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OK, so we have 2 banners now, both heavy with the theme of fortifications. The runecaster, firemage guy on the homepage apparently blasting through a wall and now some hunchbacked archers firing down from defensive fortifications.

 

First thing that strikes me in this Banner is "what the hell are they shooting at?" They obviously aren't shooting at the fort/castle in the distance. It must be a besieging army. There are some oblong dots in the lower field that could be marching troops.

 

OK, fine, but then where are these archers? Option one: either this isn't a castle, its a big-arsed long wall with towers regularly interspersed (does appear to be multiple towers in a line), or its the biggest dang castle I've ever seen. Option two: the castles can have remote fortifications to help defend so you aren't completely boxed in and it's harder to surround and overwhelm you.

 

Option two is nice, means some really strategic thought into building out your fortifications. And that's assuming we're building out our own and not just manning the NPC's stonework. But you would at least still have to strategically place manpower.

 

The hurtling fireballs could be just the firemage from the other banner, or they could be siege weaponry. Trebuchets and the like. I would prefer that they were included and we didn't rely on just the squishies for our nukes. Options, options, options.

 

Speculation on the flyers is rampant. I'd just like to point out that they appear to have useable forearms. So not t-rex arms or traditional "eagles". Might change the direction of some percolating thoughts.

 

Last, that does not appear to be just clouds in the sky, but smoke. This is pretty out there, but I'd guess that true destruction of fortifications is possible complete with clouds of smoke from burning rubble. That would seem very resource heavy, but, hey, they saved some polygons with those character models, right?

Edited by bairloch

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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I have a beef. That castle's construction is really dumb considering people in this world would know about flying monsters. Real castles are built with the assumption that there won't be giant bird dragons simply flying over your walls and landing talons-first on your king. Roofs over everything would be ideal, the stronger the better, as well as smooth and slanted so nothing can land on it easily. Fireproof would be the cherry on top: metal would likely be the best option.

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Just to use SB as an example: 

 

1. You didn't siege Castles, You Siege an entire city and that city could include buildings that held everything to make your gear, Trainers to train your character in , Player owned homes, merchant buildings the players could sell stuff out of. Hell at one point SB had guard barracks and dog kennels. The one thing you never saw in an SB city was a castle.

 

2. Flying creatures/characters. SB didn't really have flying creatures per say it did have flying characters and characters that could teleport and defeat walls and professions that had group friendly versions there of. However SB cities could build magical devices that when turned on would stop anyone from being able to fly over a wall or teleport in but they costed resources and gold, especially gold when operating. So until we know more about siege mechanics we can't criticize a concept banner's art.

 

If you want to get an idea of what siege warfare was like in SB just go to Youtube and search "Shadowbane" and you will find plenty of vids. 

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Just to use SB as an example: 

 

1. You didn't siege Castles, You Siege an entire city and that city could include buildings that held everything to make your gear, Trainers to train your character in , Player owned homes, merchant buildings the players could sell stuff out of. Hell at one point SB had guard barracks and dog kennels. The one thing you never saw in an SB city was a castle.

 

2. Flying creatures/characters. SB didn't really have flying creatures per say it did have flying characters and characters that could teleport and defeat walls and professions that had group friendly versions there of. However SB cities could build magical devices that when turned on would stop anyone from being able to fly over a wall or teleport in but they costed resources and gold, especially gold when operating. So until we know more about siege mechanics we can't criticize a concept banner's art.

 

If you want to get an idea of what siege warfare was like in SB just go to Youtube and search "Shadowbane" and you will find plenty of vids. 

 

 

Fortess were castles imo (the city with 3 layers of wall) with only the tol in the middle


Se un uomo non è disposto a lottare per le proprie idee, o le sue idee non valgono nulla o non vale nulla lui. EZRA POUND

 

MEMENTO AUDERE SEMPER

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this image makes me even more interested in hearing from the shadowbane folks...curious to know more about sieges in SB, how they worked, what they would have liked to see improved...and whether or not this image meets some of those expectations. 

 

 

Ok. So Banes from the 2003-2004 Era are a bit different than late 2004- Server down.

 

Basically players were able to build their cities just about any where on the world. Planting a Tree of Life(ToL) would terraform the land around it allowing you to place buildings on it. You were actually able to place buildings anywhere in the world during the 2003 - 2004 era. This was removed eventually and it was probably for stability reasons. Having random buildings around the world was somewhat taxing on the server I would imagine. Those buildings could also be burned down at any point so many times you would come across the husk of a building as you were running around the world.

 

Now these player cities had the ability to protect a certain amount of buildings through your ToL. These buildings could not be damaged unless the city were under the effect of a bane stone. Banes were the sieging mechanic in SB. The defenders of the city were able to set the time on a bane stone for when it would go live. What I don't remember for sure is if there were windows of time at this point where the defenders could set it. It could be that at this point in the game, you could set it during any time of the day. The servers at this point were pretty much all NA so people could have potentially set it for 3 in the morning(I think).

 

Another thing of note is that the amount of buildings that could be protected is small and the city walls could NOT be protected. This meant that many guilds would "prep" the city for a bane by showing up in the middle of the night to burn down walls. You probably have seen this referenced by people saying they would stay up all night sometimes fighting off attackers. This was the reason. It also was done just to piss someone off. Cities were not cheap to build so burning down someones unprotected buildings and walls was very expensive for a guild to replace(assuming they were not duping which was rampant for a majority of SB).

 

If a city was baned, once the time set by the defender went live, everything in the city was vulnerable, including the Tree of Life itself. Guilds were able to destroy or take over an enemy city by destroying the tree of life through a bane. The size of banes back then generally were massive but could be smaller depending on the guilds involved. Since the active population size held steady around 2k-2.5k back then, banes with as many as 500 people or more attending were possible.

 

This is where I should mention one of the major downfalls of SB came into play. The stability of the game back then was just awful. The servers didn't handle that many people in once place at one time and the client crashing was common place. Back then, it was not uncommon for me to crash 20-30 times a day. Banes that were big enough could end in just a slide show for a lot of people because of the amount of characters on the screen at once. The biggest bane I attended was probably on Vengeance server at The Lordknights capital and there could easily have been 1000 people there(There may have been actually less but it was absurd). It ended up crashing the server. It is honestly surprising that I made it through that period where it was super frustrating. Everything else about it was a lot of fun though.

 

I should also mention that banes could vary wildly in duration. Some did last over 12 hours. This was kinda rare but it did happen. Even your more modern banes can last for hours. I think the longest one I was involved in within the last year was somewhere around 5 hours. Generally this happens(these days) when it is poorly managed by the attacker or the defenders play a stalling game(or both).

 

Another aspect of banes that changed from the early days to the second expansion that released was that Spires were introduced. These provided special effects that could block different powers, amplify damage from different sources or debuff different stats. The most common used were no fly and no teleport spires. This made it is difficult for enemies to access the city because it prevented the primary sources of entering the city to be used at all. There were still other sources like spies in the guild, a set of bane discs called sapper and saboteur, and exploiting(this obviously was frowned upon but did happen).

 

 

That takes us to the end of 2004. Ubi bought out Wolfpack during this year and the changes that occurred may be unrelated and have been planned already. The amount of protection slots for ToLs was increased and walls and barracks(they held NPC guards you could have in a city) were auto protected. The amount of barracks you could have in a city was also limited to 8. Before it was unlimited so some cities were literally just full of barracks(these guys were your dupers). It was very expensive to have that but it also made a city very hard to destroy if this were the case because a city might have a thousand NPC guards there to harass and attack. It also generated a ton of lag for those attacking and really for those defending. This was also another major source of server lag.

 

The window that defenders could set a bane was also tightened. They generally fell on NA friendlyish times of 1PM CST to 3AM CST (I say friendlyish because those were still all over the place.) Bane times generally became shorter. Banes stones initially had not much health (100000 hp). This could lead to people rushing the bane stone and bashing it down. Ranked bane stones were introduced that could have up to 10 mil hp.

 

It also became possible to travel to friendly trees through the use of an NPC on the tree called a rune master. This allowed defenders much easier travel. Previous to this, all long distance travel was through rune gates that were placed in set spots around the map and summoning. Early on, only healer based classes had the ability to summon. This was later changes with vampires but that happened with the second expansion that came out at the end of 2004.

 

 

I realized that I haven't explained bane mechanics too well. Basically you were able to build buildings of war(Bulwarks and siege tents). Bulwarks provided the base for trebuchets and other machines of war to be built for bashing down walls and hitting enemies(the latter was hardly used until it was broken and exploited to blow up stacks). These were controlled by players to attack the target they wanted. They acted like a pet. These trebs could be destroyed and the bulwarks could be bashed down to slow damage to their walls.

 

The biggest part of banes was controlling the bulwark fields. If you were the defender, this gave you the opportunity to bash down their bulwarks and destroy the stone. If you were the offense, this gave you the opportunity to replace any destroyed bulwarks and deal damage to the walls to gain access to the cities. This is a vast oversimplification of it but that is the overall idea.

 

 

That is a very quick overview of some changes. I left out a ton of things and I wasn't overly specific on others so if you have any specific questions or other old SB players want to chime in, have at it.

 

TL;DR: If you care, read it.

Edited by phylor

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