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TullyAckland

01/13/15 - City Siege Concept

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Please make sure there are multiple ways to PvP.

 

While sieges sound interesting, please do not make the same mistake as ESO have that be the ONLY form of PvP. Different people like different things, and sieges are actually a pretty niche category. Personally, I like smaller scale PvP better (10-30 people) with quicker battles instead of prolonged sieges. Please make sure there is something for everyone.

 

Also, please make sure that you also have good Endgame PvE not just PvP. Again, PvP RPGs are super niche and don't hold up well in the long term.

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Please make sure there are multiple ways to PvP.

 

While sieges sound interesting, please do not make the same mistake as ESO have that be the ONLY form of PvP. Different people like different things, and sieges are actually a pretty niche category. Personally, I like smaller scale PvP better (10-30 people) with quicker battles instead of prolonged sieges. Please make sure there is something for everyone.

 

Also, please make sure that you also have good Endgame PvE not just PvP. Again, PvP RPGs are super niche and don't hold up well in the long term.

Shadowbane really hit the nail on the head when they introduced mines in addition to sieges. For those who don't know, each MoB/Levelling zone on the map had a mine, with each producing various types of resources for the guild/nation who owned it. Each 24 hours, every mine on the map would open up to be taken and/or defended by any guild/nation on the map. Each nation determined its defense window, so often for weeks at a time, you could literally have battles across the map with a large variety of guilds taking and holding mines - and often, this would occur each hour from 7pm EST to 1 am EST.

 

It gave you a chance to try new GvG specs, tactics, etc without the need for a full blown siege.


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1 post to say this LOL ... you haven't read a single thread a bit of information here yet have you? 

 

We all already are playing the game silly, it's called rampant speculation which is a explained a a little bit on the front page.

 

I saw that and I'm actually guessing he's from Wizard101 -- where they put out a new world and two days laters, a whole slew are wahhing that there isn't another new world already.


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meh, grumpy old lady...


Never underestimate grumpy old ladies.

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Is it just me or are the clouds not natural-looking....?

Are they clouds or smoke from the fires ?  If it is smoke then this might still be daylight. Are the flyers escaping or in the battle or  both ?  Is that dragon fire or 'Greek" fire ?cat68.gifLady Feline says Meowcat68.gif

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To my eyes, that's definitely a moon, rather than a sun. Sunlight would give you a tint of color, and at the very least it would shine bright enough to illuminate some of the clearing between the smoke/clouds.

 

With that said, it's just concept art. Having gone to school with way too many artist, I wouldn't read too much into it - the primary objective is to portray a big theme and look cool doing it. I think they succeeded here.


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Logistics. I mean is a seige going to be a common pvp concept? such as in wow bg's? if so, I am dissapoint :P. Is it going to be an event, (much like GW2 does with it's evolving world or whatever they call it?) I'd be carefull of stuffing it with quests. please, don't stuff it with quests. If it's a purely pvp concept then I have to say, Logistics logistics logistics. I mean you can have a seige last for a few hours (basically keep lobbing stuff until something breaks) or it has to be a meaningful decision. I mean why am I seiging? what do I get from it? single use rewards are fine if you want to tur it into a grinding concept (which I'm sure you don't) but what will reward players for chosing to seige -that- place? cuz I want epic loots kinda takes away from the immersion.

 

     So I'm seiging this place. What can I do? shoot cannon, attempt to scale wall. Can i just ferry cannon, or craft them? Can I triage? Again it does boil down to what are the logistics. How far are people coming from, how fast can they get there? what's your respawn system like (OH GOD THE TEASING!) The longer the logistics, the shorter the seige. Likewise if it's just okay respawn continue mashing- then seiges are going to last so long that it'll get old. Quick.

 

    A. If It takes me saay... a week to get together my guild/faction. (time coordination etc.) and they come on. Say it takes about... 45-1hr minutes to get everyone moving and supplies gathered. I would hope that the travel there would take about 15 minutes, maybe even closer to 30. in and of itself would be an event. Reason being, this is the time that my opponent can harass my column, disrupt my supply chain etc. (If you look at Planetfall, the idea of harrying your opponent's zerg is dying, mainly because of instant spawns.) So we reach the place set up and are lobbing our whatnots. maybe we have people sneaking in, maybe we're looking for ways to exploit the weakness and peel the onion (remember when that was an actual thing?). Now at this point you take the screenshot, it looks incredibly epic. But imho what makes it feel epic is all the work it took to make that scene happen. When you say seige, I think well we're here for the long haul. say 45 minutes to an hour. (this would really, again, depend on logistics.) And say the walls crack, is city design going to play a role? because some of us may want to desing a squad on what happens then small streets, chokepoints, AOE, etc.

 

I would hope that the logistics question is something you guys are looking at way deeper than just seiging and whatnot. because spawns, crafts, transport, guild number limits, raid limits, will all have a HUGE impact on exactly what can be defined as a seige. Otherwise it will become something like a grind. Even, even if the reward is something that has real-world (in game) impact and is everything everyone wants it to be, it will be relegated to a farmfest because at some point you can merely zerg it back and forth and it doesn't matter because it's a numbers game. (Wintergrasp, Isle...whatever it was called)

 

Everyone should be able to play a part, but it should happen because a select few (leaders/strategists/tacticians(TACTICS IS A VIABLE STUDY! :P)) want it to happen. This will give people someone to band together around and create a more vibrant and rich story for the individual players.

 

I can think of at least 2 people who either already said this, or are thinking it.

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I can think of half a dozen times off the top of my head where trees were taken in SB to be used as forward operating bases (trees were where you spawned and built cities) in order to besiege a different tree. It's essentially what you're talking about - we'd mimic MacArthur's island-hopping campaign in the Pacific in order to move our forward operating bases closer to the main enemy town we wanted to take.

 

Sometimes, we'd take them for political reasons. Others, we'd take them for the location advantages (close to desirable zones, for example).

 

I have no doubt the developers will keep logistics in mind here.


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If there are going to be battles, please consider "Battle Commaner" roles, so players dont just go hacking heads around randomly.

Maybe there could be some NPC commanders helping the Faction with some standard battle orders in addition to Users playing as commanders (commanders that

also wave out their weapons in battle :D )

 

Considering that the Knight class has been announced, Im already thinking of a name for a Knighthood guild. Awesome.

 

Looking forward to see players  thinking of creative ways to infiltrate fortresses, raid towns, and so on.

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Its great to see Siege/PvP  warfare will be implemented in CrowFall. I am looking forward to see what surprises are in store for us in coming months....

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Please make sure there are multiple ways to PvP.

 

While sieges sound interesting, please do not make the same mistake as ESO have that be the ONLY form of PvP. Different people like different things, and sieges are actually a pretty niche category. Personally, I like smaller scale PvP better (10-30 people) with quicker battles instead of prolonged sieges. Please make sure there is something for everyone.

 

Also, please make sure that you also have good Endgame PvE not just PvP. Again, PvP RPGs are super niche and don't hold up well in the long term.

 

The reason why Cyrodiil is successful is because they don't add other PvP gametypes that could remove players from it. ESO is getting the Justice System which will help with some other interesting PvP situations. They might get a battleground thing, but if that happens they can kiss Cyrodiil goodbye. Niche is good because then the correct audience gets the correct content instead of a shallow spread of generic content.

 

--

 

I think it was mentioned, but SB did have mines. As long as it's still part of the open world and there are just enough for many people to have them yet not too much so many people also seek to steal them, then they should incorporate that small-scale type of PvP. Any sort of battleground instance though is very...very...bad. Don't turn the game into an eSport. Please.

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No PvP instances.  The great thing about open world resource driven PvP (like SB's mine system) is you have no idea who is going to show up, when, and in what numbers.

 

Having 3-4 groups fighting over the same thing makes for some interesting moments.  Who engages first, is it a last second melee, do you engage one group away from the mine, wipe them, get everyone back, hit the group at the mine, only to have the first group you wiped back in the fight.

 

Instancing takes away all of the unknown that makes it exciting and memorable.


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Please make sure there are multiple ways to PvP.

 

While sieges sound interesting, please do not make the same mistake as ESO have that be the ONLY form of PvP. Different people like different things, and sieges are actually a pretty niche category. Personally, I like smaller scale PvP better (10-30 people) with quicker battles instead of prolonged sieges. Please make sure there is something for everyone.

 

Also, please make sure that you also have good Endgame PvE not just PvP. Again, PvP RPGs are super niche and don't hold up well in the long term.

Trying to please everyone is why ESO flopped IMO. I believe ESO did sieging pretty good but the rest of the game was sort of an unfocused hot mess. They tried to please both MMO fans and single player TES fans when they should have just tried to please one group and build their game with that in mind. Either build a Skyrim with Co-op or a full fledged TES MMO not some mix of both that left both groups unsatisfied.

 

But specifically on sieging, if thats a major focus of the game then it needs to remain a major focus. For siege PvP to work you need many people involved and active not distracted and taken away by instances and e-sports. If you don't like sieging that much then might be best to go play a game with other forms of PvP.

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You can still check out either SBEMU or Magicbane to see what it was like. Sort of.... Sieges/banes could easily rally 200 people at a time.

 

Live banes were the best.  More success when people ran my shiz =P.


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No PvP instances.  The great thing about open world resource driven PvP (like SB's mine system) is you have no idea who is going to show up, when, and in what numbers.

 

Having 3-4 groups fighting over the same thing makes for some interesting moments.  Who engages first, is it a last second melee, do you engage one group away from the mine, wipe them, get everyone back, hit the group at the mine, only to have the first group you wiped back in the fight.

 

Instancing takes away all of the unknown that makes it exciting and memorable.

I can think of several fights where we got sandwiched in a 4-5 guild fight, got worked over, and rallied quickly enough to take the field (and sometimes even the mine). Man, those were some of the best fights. There was one at oblivion like that where the fighting was a solid 45+ minutes back on Vindi.


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01/13/15 - City Siege Concept

 

....

 

Crowfall_CitySiegeConcept.jpg

 

 

 

...

 

 

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this... but FIRE!

 

I mean flaming arrows... one of the big problems I have with many games is the use of fire.  Fire makes a great AoA weapon / attack... but the problem is very few games have a sensible mechanic for it or a way to put it out.

 

If you are going to have fire in sieges - you need a sensible way to fight it.  It needs to burn... and behave like fire.  Unless it's magical... in which case it can stand up and walk off and have a nap somewhere as magical fire does so I am told.

Edited by gyrus

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Very interesting...

I think so too. 

 

First time looking through these forums, is there any specifics on how group composition would work?

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