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Gilgamer

Meaningful EK Contribution to Campaigns

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Since yesterday's EK: FAQ drop, people have been discussing EKs with both renewed interest and some with increasing skepticism.  While the system looks well thought out and increasingly well fleshed out, the concept of EKs having little impact on Campaigns, has left some wondering if EKs are misplaced effort.  There is fear that a few mega EKs will reign and the rest will be ghost towns. We've been told that import restrictions placed on campaigns will nullify pay to win and this is good since EK items are going to be sold through the store.  Additionally, CF will have no auction house, with EKs serving as the marketplace both for crafting and buying/selling.  But will those limited Imports that are designed to curb pay-to-win, stifle the economy.  Lastly, there seems to be some that are hoping EKs will be a means to an end and not the real endgame.  While EKs depend 100% on campaigns, there is little impact (outside of crafted gear and Relics/Artifacts) that EKs have on campaigns, and some see that as a lore shortcoming and against the risk/reward nature of the game. 

 

Firstly, if everyone wants to be a monarch in their own EK then we will all be w/o Nobles/Vassals/Tenants.  Some may get visitors but their EKs will only be a fraction of what they could be if players pooled their parcels through fealty to a monarch.  Not everyone should be a monarch, just like most people are not guild leaders.  It's ok to contribute to someone else's EK because ACE is making it unusually risk free to pack up and leave.  That someone could be your guild leader, your significant other, a friend, or just a random bustling EK you come across.  There will only be ghost towns if people don't pack up their parcels and join with others under a monarch.

 

Secondly, gear degradation is supposed to be the driving force that keeps crafters in demand.  However that demand will be in the campaigns not in the EKs.  Why, because your ability to carry gear and consumables with you into a campaign is very limited and it's in the campaign that your gear will break or be lost and need to be repaired/replaced.  Gear is not the only buildable that will make crafters a must have in campaigns (also fortifications and siege weapons), but the question remains as to how they will profit in campaigns.  How do you charge for something when players in campaigns come in empty handed.  Should you charge, if your crafted gear will make the difference between your faction or guild winning or losing a campaign.  Will a lot of crafting be expected pro bono? 

 

A possible solution could be the creation of a crafter "minted" currency that's importable and usable in campaign to acquire gear from crafters.  Say you want to make sure you have a spare sword should you need it in the next campaign.  So you find a crafter in an EK with the needed skill and you provide the required amount of raw materials, plus the crafter's fee for the service.  Instead of a sword they deliver to you a sword kit stamped with the EK in which it was minted "I.E. Sword Kit of Westeros".  This kit would be exchangeable (like a currency) in campaign to any crafter of adequate skill for a finished sword.  The spent kits would, in turn, be a currency used by the crafter, back in the EK in which it was minted, to purchase something (a crafting buff, a temporary tax exemption, free Tenant status).  Alternatively these spent kits could be used to bolster a crafter's Embargo space or campaign contribution.  Though importable, such kits would still need limits placed on how many and of what type could be imported into a campaign. 

 

Lastly, to increase the lore ties between the EKs and the campaigns, perhaps Artifact and Relic buffs should be contingent on the monarch's favor/influence within a campaign band.  I suggest three types of specific EK structures: Pantheons, Temples, and Guild Halls each with a specific role.  Pantheon would be dedicated upon construction to one of the three factions (Order, Balance, or Chaos), temples could only be dedicated to a single god (within the chosen pantheon if one is already in the EK), and guild halls which intuitively enough represent the monarch's guild.  To have Artifact and Relic buffs active within The God's Reach, the EK's monarch must win in a campaign under the banner of the faction their pantheon is dedicated to, likewise with The Infected.  Such buffs would need to be re-upped once a year, making it very challenging to maintain active buffs in all campaign bands.  Buffs would be applied to the GvG campaign as long as your guild membership is less than the concurrent player cap of your EK.  If your concurrent player cap is 100 (based on the quantity, size, and tier of structures in the EK), this would create a "soft" ceiling on guild membership. 

Really though, who wouldn't want to be able to fit their entire guild into their EK?

 

Some don't see a problem, some do.  I don't think it's a problem and I am really excited about the idea of EKs, but because I want everyone to be equally excited I thought I would throw out some ideas that could make EKs something more than just guild housing + marketplace. 

Edited by Gilgamer

Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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I get your point with the import and export rules and I do have my concerns. For example what is the point of me winning a campaign and taking a huge chunk of materials with me to my EK if I can not use them in the next one, well the only point would be to upgrade my EK personally that is far away from my play style so what do I do with my mats if I can not use them to help me win the next battle. On the other hand I love a fair fight and that is the point with the campaigns, you join a campaign you stay in it untill someone wins or leave it and take penalties for it, you gather mats and stuff in the campaign and use it your attempts to claim victory. All this gear/loot/materials in and out of campaigns has not been discussed or detailed yet and for a good reason they need to test it first I guess. 

 

To address the suggestions you make, firstly if we have "minted" currency of a weapon or what ever that´s not resetting the board that is partly resetting it, uncle Bob will still have 8 out of 10 fingers on the throne if there is not a full reset, so I think they won´t allow that in any way. Maybe they´ll just add campaigns that are 100% risk 100% reward that allow you to enter with everything you want, or a guild vs guild campaign that allows you to enter with everything you want. Looking forward to seeing how they will balance it.


Arrogance diminishes wisdom

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I get your point with the import and export rules and I do have my concerns. For example what is the point of me winning a campaign and taking a huge chunk of materials with me to my EK if I can not use them in the next one, well the only point would be to upgrade my EK personally that is far away from my play style so what do I do with my mats if I can not use them to help me win the next battle. On the other hand I love a fair fight and that is the point with the campaigns, you join a campaign you stay in it untill someone wins or leave it and take penalties for it, you gather mats and stuff in the campaign and use it your attempts to claim victory. All this gear/loot/materials in and out of campaigns has not been discussed or detailed yet and for a good reason they need to test it first I guess. 

 

To address the suggestions you make, firstly if we have "minted" currency of a weapon or what ever that´s not resetting the board that is partly resetting it, uncle Bob will still have 8 out of 10 fingers on the throne if there is not a full reset, so I think they won´t allow that in any way. Maybe they´ll just add campaigns that are 100% risk 100% reward that allow you to enter with everything you want, or a guild vs guild campaign that allows you to enter with everything you want. Looking forward to seeing how they will balance it.

Thanks for the well thought out response.  Yeah the oneway flow of resources out of the campaign, makes EKs the only resource sink.  Sure you can craft gear but if campaigns last for months and the most you could ever import was one set of gear that's not much of a sink.  Additionally what does that mean for crafting demand? The minted currency uses resources from a previous campaign to craft in a current campaign and would still be subject to the same risks of being looted, and would definitely need to be limited on import.   Also, it involves crafters twice (in the EK and the Campaign) and incentivizes both by providing a currency that ensures their time spent aiding the war effort in campaign gets rewarded w/o having to ask for payment from guild mates and faction alumni.

 

Edit:

We really don't know what the import rules will be, but everything I've seen suggests it will be very restrictive to prevent players who've amassed an extreme amount of wealth from importing tons of gear, consumables, and resources.

 

From the Campaign FAQ #9:

 

Phase 1 is Spring. The Campaign map is hidden by fog of war. You are dropped (typically naked) into an unknown, deadly environment. This world is filled with the ruins of ancient castles, abandoned mines and haunted villages – which you have to explore to scavenge for weapons, tools and the resources to start building fortifications.

Edited by Gilgamer

Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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Thanks for the well thought out response.  Yeah the oneway flow of resources out of the campaign, makes EKs the only resource sink.  Sure you can craft gear but if campaigns last for months and the most you could ever import was one set of gear that's not much of a sink.  Additionally what does that mean for crafting demand? The minted currency uses resources from a previous campaign to craft in a current campaign and would still be subject to the same risks of being looted, and would definitely need to be limited on import.   Also, it involves crafters twice (in the EK and the Campaign) and incentivizes both by providing a currency that ensures their time spent aiding the war effort in campaign gets rewarded w/o having to ask for payment from guild mates and faction alumni.

 

 

These are a couple of excellent points. 

 

The more stringent the campaign import rules, the less value the EK economy has. Since Marketplaces, NPC traders and crafting stations are among the selling points they are using for the EK, they do need to clarify a bit more about how they intend for these goods to be used, and where (in the EK or the campaign)

 

For your second point. You are also right that it's imbalanced for roles. Crafters are needed in both EKs and Campaigns. But combat and other support roles really seem to have little to do outside of campaigns. 

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Since yesterday's EK: FAQ drop, people have been discussing EKs with both renewed interest and some with increasing skepticism.  While the system looks well thought out and increasingly well fleshed out, the concept of EKs having little impact on Campaigns, has left some wondering if EKs are misplaced effort.  There is fear that a few mega EKs will reign and the rest will be ghost towns. We've been told that import restrictions placed on campaigns will nullify pay to win and this is good since EK items are going to be sold through the store.  Additionally, CF will have no auction house, with EKs serving as the marketplace both for crafting and buying/selling.  But will those limited Imports that are designed to curb pay-to-win, stifle the economy.  Lastly, there seems to be some that are hoping EKs will be a means to an end and not the real endgame.  While EKs depend 100% on campaigns, there is little impact (outside of crafted gear and Relics/Artifacts) that EKs have on campaigns, and some see that as a lore shortcoming and against the risk/reward nature of the game. 

 

Firstly, if everyone wants to be a monarch in their own EK then we will all be w/o Nobles/Vassals/Tenants.  Some may get visitors but their EKs will only be a fraction of what they could be if players pooled their parcels through fealty to a monarch.  Not everyone should be a monarch, just like most people are not guild leaders.  It's ok to contribute to someone else's EK because ACE is making it unusually risk free to pack up and leave.  That someone could be your guild leader, your significant other, a friend, or just a random bustling EK you come across.  There will only be ghost towns if people don't pack up their parcels and join with others under a monarch.

 

Secondly, gear degradation is supposed to be the driving force that keeps crafters in demand.  However that demand will be in the campaigns not in the EKs.  Why, because your ability to carry gear and consumables with you into a campaign is very limited and it's in the campaign that your gear will break or be lost and need to be repaired/replaced.  Gear is not the only buildable that will make crafters a must have in campaigns (also fortifications and siege weapons), but the question remains as to how they will profit in campaigns.  How do you charge for something when players in campaigns come in empty handed.  Should you charge, if your crafted gear will make the difference between your faction or guild winning or losing a campaign.  Will a lot of crafting be expected pro bono? 

 

A possible solution could be the creation of a crafter "minted" currency that's importable and usable in campaign to acquire gear from crafters.  Say you want to make sure you have a spare sword should you need it in the next campaign.  So you find a crafter in an EK with the needed skill and you provide the required amount of raw materials, plus the crafter's fee for the service.  Instead of a sword they deliver to you a sword kit stamped with the EK in which it was minted "I.E. Sword Kit of Westeros".  This kit would be exchangeable (like a currency) in campaign to any crafter of adequate skill for a finished sword.  The spent kits would, in turn, be a currency used by the crafter, back in the EK in which it was minted, to purchase something (a crafting buff, a temporary tax exemption, free Tenant status).  Alternatively these spent kits could be used to bolster a crafter's Embargo space or campaign contribution.  Though importable, such kits would still need limits placed on how many and of what type could be imported into a campaign. 

 

Lastly, to increase the lore ties between the EKs and the campaigns, perhaps Artifact and Relic buffs should be contingent on the monarch's favor/influence within a campaign band.  I suggest three types of specific EK structures: Pantheons, Temples, and Guild Halls each with a specific role.  Pantheon would be dedicated upon construction to one of the three factions (Order, Balance, or Chaos), temples could only be dedicated to a single god (within the chosen pantheon if one is already in the EK), and guild halls which intuitively enough represent the monarch's guild.  To have Artifact and Relic buffs active within The God's Reach, the EK's monarch must win in a campaign under the banner of the faction their pantheon is dedicated to, likewise with The Infected.  Such buffs would need to be re-upped once a year, making it very challenging to maintain active buffs in all campaign bands.  Buffs would be applied to the GvG campaign as long as your guild membership is less than the concurrent player cap of your EK.  If your concurrent player cap is 100 (based on the quantity, size, and tier of structures in the EK), this would create a "soft" ceiling on guild membership. 

Really though, who wouldn't want to be able to fit their entire guild into their EK?

 

Some don't see a problem, some do.  I don't think it's a problem and I am really excited about the idea of EKs, but because I want everyone to be equally excited I thought I would throw out some ideas that could make EKs something more than just guild housing + marketplace. 

 

Really good points. For now I am waiting to see some information on how elaborate and enticing fealty and kingdom building in the campaigns will be before I spend too much effort continuing to analyze and critique the numerous potential problems in the EKs. I am pretty sure I will have more to say then, one way or another.

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For example what is the point of me winning a campaign and taking a huge chunk of materials with me to my EK if I can not use them in the next one?

 

Glory? Fame? Winning for the sake of winning. The problem with MMO players is that they always want more.

It's like asking what's the purpose of winning a MOBA (or RTS, FPS and so on) game if the next one starts from zero.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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Glory? Fame? Winning for the sake of winning. The problem with MMO players is that they always want more.

It's like asking what's the purpose of winning a MOBA (or RTS, FPS and so on) game if the next one starts from zero.

Sounds noble but I doubt you're being sincere.  If you don't care about the Embargo or what you export from the campaign will be then you really don't care about the only incentive to winning.  Nobody is going to be celebrating your win, there is no glory, no fame in worlds that aren't persistent, there isn't even a guarantee that you will see any of the same players from that campaign you fought so hard in.  EKs are your lasting impact, they are sum total or your winning, they are your fame and glory manifest.   The people who don't care about hyping themselves by build a giant monument to their own success, want an incentive too.  What is the incentive to win for those who couldn't care less about EKs? And spare us the glory and fame trope.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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You can bend the knee or make other guilds swear fealty to yours. Maybe when a guild swears fealty, it should also have some impact in the EK. In medieval Europe, this is how kingdoms grew, by conquering others and having them swear fealty. The conquered kingdoms didn't cease to exist, rather they became vassals.

 

I suppose my griping point is that the GoT intrigue which they are marketing is only really going to happen in the campaign worlds, whereas the EK remain as happy rainbowland without any consequences. If bending the knee made you a vassal of another guild both in the campaign worlds as well as in EK, you could enter the next campaign with your vassals as your immediate allies. Of course, not all guilds want to be vassals, which is where the GoT intrigue comes in. This way, there is a contribution from EK to campaigns, and its a very social aspect true to what ACE is marketing.

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In the past, they have mentioned tournaments. What if tournaments allowed for much higher imports? What if you had to have a minimum amount of gear/items to even join a tournament? And what if those tournaments had a very high decay rate? 

 

You'd have an incentive to accumulate gear and resources outside of campaigns. The tournaments could be the best of the best competing against each other. Maybe the winner of a tournament gets a special relic that isn't available anywhere else. It wouldn't be a huge advantage, but it would be a nice perk and feather in the cap of the winners.

 

Basically, you avoid the Uncle Bob scenario by having a bunch of Uncle Bobs beat on each other. Their victories in tournaments won't have a significant impact on the regular campaigns.

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When they presented the game as the campaigns being THE game and the EKS being like trophy rooms, what part was hard to understand?

 

What do you use a trophy room for?

Do you bring it in to your next match and go "Look at my mighty trophies"?

 

The only reason the campaigns are ending, is to stop uncle Bob scenarios from happening.

What is the point of ending the campaigns if we just move the uncle Bob problem to the next stage.

We might as well just keep the campaigns going then.

And of we are keeping the campaigns going, we really don't need the EKS.

 

If we are allowing campaigns with higher import, all it will do is skip part if the campaign (Spring and summer maybe).

What is the point of that then?

 

If we allow the EKS to effect the campaigns in any meaningful way, then we have the problem of selling EK bits suddenly being real power.

 

It seems you are just trying to fund a way for people to import more power into the general campaigns.

 

This must mean you are not happy with the very basic ideas of CF.

 

There really aren't any problems with the EKS for anyone beside the people that want the EKS to be part of the main game.

A trophy room is not part of the main game.


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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Glory? Fame? Winning for the sake of winning. The problem with MMO players is that they always want more.

It's like asking what's the purpose of winning a MOBA (or RTS, FPS and so on) game if the next one starts from zero.

 

we don't play for fun... it's all serious business!!!

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I think everyone (including myself) has been assuming that import rules are one off. You can only bring X amount of items into the new campaign world as it starts or you first enter. I'm not sure if it was stated somewhere with devs or in an FAQ or not, I tried looking and couldn't find much about import rules.

 

However, what if by imports means how much you can import from your EK on a daily or weekly basis? You could have a slow trickle of support coming from your EK and it does not make the rewards from campaigns feel like they're mostly going to be unused if you don't participate frequently in EKs. If everyone has the same limits on their slow-drip of resources it won't throw off balance unless you don't have anything to bring in from your EK, even then it's more like a "Daily Bonus" for you in the campaign, which is a little aide, but you'll still have to get most of what you need from harvesting resources in campaigns.

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Sounds noble but I doubt you're being sincere.  If you don't care about the Embargo or what you export from the campaign will be then you really don't care about the only incentive to winning.  Nobody is going to be celebrating your win, there is no glory, no fame in worlds that aren't persistent, there isn't even a guarantee that you will see any of the same players from that campaign you fought so hard in.  EKs are your lasting impact, they are sum total or your winning, they are your fame and glory manifest.   The people who don't care about hyping themselves by build a giant monument to their own success, want an incentive too.  What is the incentive to win for those who couldn't care less about EKs? And spare us the glory and fame trope.

 

You must be new to this kind of game. There's nothing noble in pissing on your opponents face once you're done with them.. things that happened in Shadowbane or Darkfall are still cause of flame and hate/friendship in the gaming communities that took part in them. This is a game.. it's all about the community and the people. Perhaps it's you who has to reconsider if this is the right game for you.

 

No wonder why every major pvp guild is going to play dregs with zero import ratio.

 

In the past, they have mentioned tournaments. What if tournaments allowed for much higher imports? What if you had to have a minimum amount of gear/items to even join a tournament? And what if those tournaments had a very high decay rate? 

 

Then after winning the tournament they're gonna ask: What now? What did I win? Is there a tournament for tournament winners?

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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Lastly, there seems to be some that are hoping EKs will be a means to an end and not the real endgame.  While EKs depend 100% on campaigns, there is little impact (outside of crafted gear and Relics/Artifacts) that EKs have on campaigns, and some see that as a lore shortcoming and against the risk/reward nature of the game. 

 

 

EKs might just be that means to an end, while also being the endgame.

 

(This is from the Characters&Advancements FAQ, by the way.)

5. How does character advancement work?

Crowfall uses a skill-based system to resolve in-game actions. Characters do not have discrete “levels” like most traditional MMOs. This means that there are MANY potential ways to advance your character at any given time.

There are two ways that a character can increase his or her skills: passive training (in a method similar to “Eve Online”) and active training (i.e. doing things in game). Active training can help you get a jumpstart on a new skill, but it can only get you basic competency. The primary method of increasing your skills is passive training.

 

 

Whether or not passive training will be the primary method of advancement because it is technically more efficient(you might be offline more often than online) or not is still a little ambiguous. But, if EK buildings and such will be the way to further increase this passive training rate, then you could consider EKs as an important part of the game. If this assumption is correct, then campaigns would be for EK progression, while EKs are for player progression. Just a thought.

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No wonder why every major pvp guild is going to play dregs with zero import ratio.

 

 

Pardon me, but I'm still confused by this... Why would any guild ever play on the dregs if its ffa?

 

I can understand if its something friends do for fun every once in a while, but why create a guild to specifically play on the dregs? It seems like the shadow would be the best place for guilds considering its tailored for them. Solo PvPers might as well just not join a guild at all, you know? Is there some kind of unspoken agreement that the dregs would become the home of PvPers so they can just ignore the EKs or something?

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Pardon me, but I'm still confused by this... Why would any guild ever play on the dregs if its ffa?

 

I can understand if its something friends do for fun every once in a while, but why create a guild to specifically play on the dregs? It seems like the shadow would be the best place for guilds considering its tailored for them. Solo PvPers might as well just not join a guild at all, you know? Is there some kind of unspoken agreement that the dregs would become the home of PvPers so they can just ignore the EKs or something?

Dregs will be closest thing to SB.

Meaning, we figure out things without having mechanical restrictions.

 

Import rules are not determined by the rings.

The ones we have seen are examples.

There might be a dregs with terminator rules and another where you can import whatever you can equip.


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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Glory? Fame? Winning for the sake of winning. The problem with MMO players is that they always want more.

It's like asking what's the purpose of winning a MOBA (or RTS, FPS and so on) game if the next one starts from zero.

 

My W/L ration, K/D ratio, and whatever points towards whatever goal I am aiming for. Sometimes that's leveling up my account other times it's LP or MMR or whatever the game uses for rankings. 

 

There are TONS of reasons to want to play more games and win in MOBAs/RTS/FPS games. None of them really have just winning for the sake of winning unless you are playing a casual game mode. 

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