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Gilgamer

Meaningful EK Contribution to Campaigns

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To be fair, JTodd seems to suggest that it is possible.

Only with a large amount of and constant support from outside sources. You know those people who do play in the Campaigns. One will never be able to be self sufficient in their EK.

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I don't think so.. the money made out of kickstarter is a small portion of what EKs can bring in the long term.

 

I didn't say it wasn't. The only way this game is going to make money after the initial purchase is via armor/weapon skins or EK upgrades. There will be plenty of people willing to spend $5-$10 (or whatever the cost) on a new type of building skin or parcel of land or more for a keep or castle. 

 

The EK-only crowd is romanticizing building up a castle, being popular, and becoming some kind of merchant prince without ever going into the Campaigns, or very rarely doing so. That's going against the point of the game. In the end you might be able to do that to some degree and have fun doing so, but that's not the point or the direction of the game.

 

If ACE decides to make the EK more important or more weighty, then they risk taking attention away from the Campaigns which is the meat and bones of the game itself.


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Co-Host of Crowns and Crows Livestream: Every Tuesday 8:30pm EST
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I'll agree with your general observation, draegan, but what the debate turned into was, "Can EKs, as described, actually house a robust enough crafting scene and economy such that players can enjoy themselves solely in EK-land?"

 

The answer is: they CAN, yes, but the top end of that game has been purposefully hobbled to ensure that the Campaign Worlds will remain a primary focus of the game. 

 

Does that mean that I can sit in my EK and build a merchant kingdom?  I can.  Can I do it without interacting with other players?  For a while, maybe.  But certainly not forever.  Think of it as "width versus depth" -- the EK design has been made so that you do have a full game loop (i.e. width) but with limited advancement (depth).

 

In terms of the overall economy, I'm hearing two very different (and equally valid) concerns: one on supply (will the campaign worlds produce enough goods to feed the economy?) and the other is demand (will there be enough demand for these goods, given the import restrictions?)

 

It probably won't be both, since the two problems are in opposition to each other.   :)

 

So let's assume it's one or the other.  The good news is: we have options to address both problems.

 

If there aren't enough materials flowing from the Campaign worlds, we can increase the Campaign rewards.  We can do this by increasing capacity (how much you can take out), or even by addressing flow (how often you can export).  

 

If there isn't enough demand for the materials, we'll add more material sinks (i.e. things to build) in the EKs.  

 

Yes, there are a few assumptions, here:

 

1. SOME players/guilds will want to participate in the Campaigns.  It's possible that no one will care, in which case there won't be enough flow of materials.

2. SOME players/guilds will want to build an empire in the EK. It's possible no one will care at all, in which case there won't be enough demand for materials.

 

Neither of these seem like a huge leap to me.  Especially since we have players concerned about BOTH ends of the spectrum (supply and demand) -- which certainly implies implies that some collection players are worried about (and thus care about) both the Campaigns and the EKs.

 

Todd

ACE


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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Furthermore, every guild... even the crafting guilds, will need to participate in the campaigns to begin with or else they'll have no income to begin growing their trading empire.  Also, they'll want to be in campaigns to raise their crafting skills.

 

So, again, the Campaigns are really important and the EK's are really only as important as each individual player/community deem.  The ladder system will be the endgame for the PvP'ers, the potential existence of rankings for EK's financial status will be the endgame for the crafters.  (Todd, may want to talk on this some more if you haven't)

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I'm thinking this gap is growing too wide. I'm starting to think that the better solution is to merge these systems, bringing the EK into the Dying Worlds somehow. There will be a cap on how many players can actually participate in one campaign, right? Why not standardize that and make it a part of the process. I feel a new thread coming on.....


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I'm thinking this gap is growing too wide. I'm starting to think that the better solution is to merge these systems, bringing the EK into the Dying Worlds somehow. There will be a cap on how many players can actually participate in one campaign, right? Why not standardize that and make it a part of the process. I feel a new thread coming on.....

There's no way to take persistent things and put them in a dying world and hope for that system to work.  Why do you think the two are "too wide"?  I just don't see any issue with their plan as long as they monitor the resource flow closely from campaign to EK and back.

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Furthermore, every guild... even the crafting guilds, will need to participate in the campaigns to begin with or else they'll have no income to begin growing their trading empire.  Also, they'll want to be in campaigns to raise their crafting skills.

 

So, again, the Campaigns are really important and the EK's are really only as important as each individual player/community deem.  The ladder system will be the endgame for the PvP'ers, the potential existence of rankings for EK's financial status will be the endgame for the crafters.  (Todd, may want to talk on this some more if you haven't)

I find it funny that you come below a post from Todd Coleman and start with "Furthermore". As if you were adding to it in an official capacity.

 

Just wanted to leave that out there, food for thought.

 

Thanks Todd for addressing the topic, a good perspective on it. Seems Artcraft is on top of the potential issues which is what I like to hear at this point, without any solid info.

Edited by LGAllastair

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Guild Leader/ High Elder

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I'm thinking this gap is growing too wide. I'm starting to think that the better solution is to merge these systems, bringing the EK into the Dying Worlds somehow. There will be a cap on how many players can actually participate in one campaign, right? Why not standardize that and make it a part of the process. I feel a new thread coming on.....

 

The "gap" is more conceptual than a technical or design challenge.  When comparing the user flow diagrams for both EK and Campaigns, there is still a huge degree of overlap in terms of system and content reuse (I'm guessing 90% or more?)

 

They are two indpendent game loops, built from the same base, with a simple interface layer (character transfer and import/export of items and materials) connecting them. 

 

Todd

ACE


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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The "gap" is more conceptual than a technical or design challenge.  When comparing the user flow diagrams for both EK and Campaigns, there is still a huge degree of overlap in terms of system and content reuse (I'm guessing 90% or more?)

 

They are two indpendent game loops, built from the same base, with a simple interface layer (character transfer and import/export of items and materials) connecting them. 

 

Todd

ACE

Hey Todd, thanks for chiming in here. I think a lot of the confusion about the gap comes from the idea of maintaining a level playing field heading into campaigns.

 

So, is the idea for the EK crafting/economy to be focused solely on EK-use items (i.e.- furniture, buildings, cosmetic items), or is your vision to have it a place where weapons, equipment, siege engines, etc (i.e. - items generally used in the Campaigns) will also have a viable EK market?

Edited by ColdSlither

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I find it funny that you come below a post from Todd Coleman and start with "Furthermore". As if you were adding to it in an official capacity.

 

Just wanted to leave that out there, food for thought.

 

Thanks Todd for addressing the topic, a good perspective on it. Seems Artcraft is on top of the potential issues which is what I like to hear at this point, without any solid info.

In communication, there are two pieces of delivering information.  The way you send it and the way you receive it.  The way I sent it came across as relaying factual information, which I believe it to be based off of everything I've read or heard being spoken directly to the subject.  The way it was received was as me attempting to add "official" information to Todd's post.  I can see where that misconception would come from.

 

From my understanding however, you don't have issue with anything I said, but wanted to simply call me out based off of your perception.  Thanks.

Edited by valor

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I'm thinking this gap is growing too wide. I'm starting to think that the better solution is to merge these systems, bringing the EK into the Dying Worlds somehow. There will be a cap on how many players can actually participate in one campaign, right? Why not standardize that and make it a part of the process. I feel a new thread coming on.....

 

What gap? All we have is a bunch of fanboys with nothing better to do (myself very much included!) discussing a game that isn't going to be released for more than a year. The gap is only the perception of a few hundred? people chatting on a forum.

 

Wait until the whole pie comes together before you think there is any sort of gap. If you see a gap now, it's just a perception issue.


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I find it funny that you come below a post from Todd Coleman and start with "Furthermore". As if you were adding to it in an official capacity.

Just wanted to leave that out there, food for thought.

 

Thanks Todd for addressing the topic, a good perspective on it. Seems Artcraft is on top of the potential issues which is what I like to hear at this point, without any solid info.

FUTHERMORE

 

....mmmm nm


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Glad I checked on the thread, while taking my lunch break.  Again, thank you Todd for giving us some reassurances.  I would like to see ColdSlither's question about the types of items to be crafted in EKs, in the context of your post about adding additional resources sinks if more demand was needed in the EK economy.

 

"If there isn't enough demand for the materials, we'll add more material sinks (i.e. things to build) in the EKs."

 

Does it matter what type of material sinks you add? If you only add sinks that are of interest to EK builders, and of no interest to those entrenched in the campaigns, will it have as much of an impact?


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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Hey Todd, thanks for chiming in here. I think a lot of the confusion about the gap comes from the idea of maintaining a level playing field heading into campaigns.

 

So, is the idea for the EK crafting/economy to be focused solely on EK-use items (i.e.- furniture, buildings, cosmetic items), or is your vision to have it a place where weapons, equipment, siege engines, etc (i.e. - items generally used in the Campaigns) will also have a viable EK market?

Pretty sure its both. Seeing as there are Campaigns where you can Import various amounts of items you can make or buy those in an EK and take them into a Campaign. So players have a choice, they can buy/make stuff in EK and bring that into the Campaign or wait and just buy/make it in the Campaigns.

 

Not sure why EK has to be either or, and not just what we the players make of it.

Edited by pang

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It's not like the game is built around the lore, it should be the other way around..

For all that I care it could stay winter until a winner is found.

Yeah, as long as there is something to do and the game always keeps my interest I don't believe it really matters.

 

Although It is possible and not difficult to circulate the world as long as the enemy transformations are reset as the seasons are reset.

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So, is the idea for the EK crafting/economy to be focused solely on EK-use items (i.e.- furniture, buildings, cosmetic items), or is your vision to have it a place where weapons, equipment, siege engines, etc (i.e. - items generally used in the Campaigns) will also have a viable EK market?

 

Both.

 

Think of it as a pyramid, with the rare, high-value items at the top.  

 

EK-based use will be the much larger sink (i.e. the bulk of the pyramid) -- not just for buildings and cosmetics and furniture, but weapons and equipment as well. Remember, we HAVE pve, it just isn't the primary focus of the game.

 

Campaigns will be at the top of the pyramid.  As a sink, they are utilized more infrequently due to Campaign lengths and import restrictions, but players WILL be inclined to use them; I don't expect that we will see a lot of unused "import" item slots in the Campaigns that allow imports, because players don't like to be at a disadvantage.  No one wants to be the guy who brings a knife to a gun fight.  

 

(for anyone thinking "what about Uncle Bob?", the reason this isn't a problem IMO is because (1) the players have equal opporunity to bring in items.  The only players who enter a Campaign at a disadvantage will be the players who knowingly choose to do so.  and (2) because you could always stick with the Shadow or the Dregs and be guaranteed equal footing.)

 

One thing to remember: our current player community isn't going to look the same as our launch community.  Right now, we have a lot more Dregs/Shadow players than we will at launch -- there are a LOT of players who will be interested in the 3-faction or 12-faction systems.  

 

The deeper you are willing to go towards the Hunger (i.e. the more risk you are willing to take in Campaigns) the more you are a supplier of goods than a consumer of goods in this system.  That's by design.  

 

(and if you don't CARE to be a supplier or a consumer of goods, you just want to play the Campaigns for prestige and fun -- that works, too.)

 

Todd

ACE


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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