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Milestone 1: Combat testing - Official discussion thread

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We have a picture of Blair's kittens on the wall. That's the only view we need in life.  :wub:

can we have a kitten mount with rainbow farts please? that would be a nyan cat hype!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH2-TGUlwu4

Edited by Mox

SkDJEH9.png Discord: message me if you want to stay in touch. Retired CrowFall member.

 

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What i'm hoping, due to the nature of these tests, is that they are just using them to get the interactions and physics down between characters in everything else. 

 

My biggest fear for this game, and a way that it will definitely not make any real waves, is that the combat is too slowed down so that there is not a great skill curve.  They need to follow the easy to learn hard to master mantra but that should really mean hard to master.  Someone fresh to the game shouldn't feel effective vs the best player in the game, they should get absolutely stomped.  Without that skill curve people do not have anything competitive to strive for and will have very shallow attachment to the game.

 

The most important aspect to combat is movement.  People spend most of their time moving around, moreso than they do actually fighting as they play a game, and the movement needs to feel fluid, and well-paced.  Make it too slow and it will bore most mainstream gamers to death.  It's not hard to find a middle ground there and they can build archetypes for more twitchy players and ones for people that don't like being twitchy. 

 

I'm confident in ACE though, so far they've made pretty good decisions for what they plan in the game, and I doubt they will truly ruin pvp just because of a few people that may complain really loudly if there are elements that are too skillful for them. 

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I don't know if this will be seen, but I'll ask it.

 

 

Let's say we go into these tests and what comes out is "This combat system is really bad, we need to completely overhaul it."

 

Are you willing to put the work in to overhaul the system if that's needed or is it just tidying things up?

 

 

 

I ask this because I've been a part of Alpha/Beta tests before where they told us they wanted our input and we let them know the massive flaws in their combat system, but our pleas were completely ignored, the game shipped, and they're now dead environments.  I don't want that to happen here.

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I don't know if this will be seen, but I'll ask it.

 

 

Let's say we go into these tests and what comes out is "This combat system is really bad, we need to completely overhaul it."

 

Are you willing to put the work in to overhaul the system if that's needed or is it just tidying things up?

 

 

 

If that is *our* assessment, from the combination of our own play and the backer feedback, then we'll do what is necessary. (no matter what we build, some people are going to say it's bad, you know it)  Building from a flawed base is a sure-fire way to fail, and we are here to win with our backers.


Gordon Walton, ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.  [Rules of Conduct]

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

 

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We have a picture of Blair's kittens on the wall. That's the only view we need in life.  :wub:

 

That's all we need! My wife made me that calander for all the kittens we fostered from the shelter last year. I make picture collages of the kittens when they are old enough to be adopted and she turned those collages into a calander. It's super cool to see them all over again. 


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
Follow us on Twitter 
@CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook
 

 

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That's all we need! My wife made me that calander for all the kittens we fostered from the shelter last year. I make picture collages of the kittens when they are old enough to be adopted and she turned those collages into a calander. It's super cool to see them all over again.

 

I can't stress enough how much do we as a community adore and support kittens in all possible kinds and forms. Some members of our community more then others of course. Edited by rajah

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I would really like players doing it comment on how attacks 'feel.' There are some games that might have technically cool moves but it just feels like there is no weight behind them.

 

I also think the same. I remember a FPS I was playing, WarRock created by Dream Execution. They released the game more than 10 years ago I think. Well I can't explain exactly why, but the combat and movement felt perfect to me. The responsiveness, the amount of damage per bullet, the physics (bullet drop, gravity, inertia), camera, freedom of movement, everything was working great together.

 

I really hope I'll get this feeling again during combat in Crowfall.  :)

Edited by courant101

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I also think the same. I remember a game I was playing, it was a FPS named WarRock created by a South Korean company, Dream Execution, and was running on an engine developed by the same company, Jindo Engine. They released the game more than 10 years ago I think.

 

Well I can't explain exactly why, but the combat and movement felt perfect to me. The responsiveness, the amount of damage per bullet, the physics (bullet drop, gravity, inertia), camera, freedom of movement, everything was working great together.

 

I really hope I'll get this feeling again during combat in Crowfall.  :)

 

I remember WarRock... it was fun for a while!

 

Edit: It's been 10 years? Holy crap

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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If you guys want to hire a slave driver, I mean, office manager, I've got a whip, and plenty of experience in interpersonal relations management during the building of the pyramids. Also, I took part in lots of teambuilding workshops on slave ships.

Did I mention I'm from the Southern US of A? *whistles Dixie song*

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That's all we need! My wife made me that calander for all the kittens we fostered from the shelter last year. I make picture collages of the kittens when they are old enough to be adopted and she turned those collages into a calander. It's super cool to see them all over again. 

 

Don't let Primal near your calendar.

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Moment to moment combat is a balance of precision vs. ability selection decision making(selection for short). Generally, games require high precision and low selection, such as an fps where most of the time a player is aiming and deciding whether to use their one attack or not; or they are high selection like WoW and low precision(thanks to tab targeting). RPGs with action elements such as directional aiming or dodge rolling or true projectile avoiding need less selection, but still require supporting mechanics that facilitate interesting/skillful selection. Skillful selection requires mechanics that tie skills together. This might seem obvious, but a shared resource pool for most skills is important. The only reason for something to be on a cooldown is for it to be situational and interesting. Wildstar had some really annoying cooldowns that were a damage buff. Since they were not situational, I had to carefully watch the timer and hit it immediately to be optimal. Please remember that making the optimal way to play annoying is really lame. In ESO most of my skills had no synergy with my other skills. This made combat extremely simple and boring for me. In essence, it was difficult to play skillfully because the game was too simple. If you allow players to choose skills from the same pool, you end up needing to balance every skill against each other skill, resulting in skills that all feel similar in power. Fun builds need skills that are more varied, yes even meaning some skills are weaker so that certain skills feel like they have impact. It is essential that skills feel good to use and have impact on combat above and beyond weaker skills or skills that were used in less optimal situations. Games that have fixed builds, but balance each class against another often feel better to me, specifically concerning that feeling of skill impact. This is why games have ultimates, why games have finishing attacks, it breaks up on the monotony. When each skill isn't required to be balanced individually, skills are free to serve many different purposes. Some are easier to land, but lower damage etc. Every skill should have nuance. This can mean many things, but it always means a skill is better in some ways, and worse in some ways. The skills that get me excited before I even get to play will be the ones I think I can exploit(fairly as part of the game) more than the developers expect me to. Like taking a situational skill and trying to put myself in that situation all the time. It is a fun game to play versus the game designers. Exploiting a skill or some aspect is literally the most fun thing. You put an aoe in the game? Let me group up 100 mobs. Putting in obvious hard restrictions on every skill is just depressing. Please give us freedom to exploit a tiny bit. Overall, try to make skills interesting. Also, theme every class in more than their backstory. Theme each archetype's gameplay. I think about combat in terms of rhythm. Familiar concepts are rogues whom hit big, cc, and run away briefly to recover, then repeat. That is a rhythm. This isn't easy to get right, but every class should feel distinct. Bonus points for creating new rhythms that aren't common. Another important aspect are shapes. Some classes might have AOE or attack in perfect circles, or focus on single lines at long distances. Wildstar and Diablo 3 really understood how to theme gameplay around shapes.

 

Originally, I was really worried about attacks locking me into animations. A lot of games made me feel like I had no control over my character. When I played Aion, unsheathing my weapons was a required animation that had to play in it's entirely before I could attack a target, and my god was that animation slow. I felt like the designers were choking me to death while I played. After hearing about Thomas Blair talk about TERA, I looked into that game and the combat looked really cool because of how quick the animations were. Animation speed is really important. Please champion great gameplay, even if some want to make the game look prettier. Great job so far ACE, you really have my hopes up again even though I have been burned by so many terribly designed games in the past.

Edited by Approxy

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