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Milestone 1: Combat testing - Official discussion thread

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Theme each archetype's gameplay. I think about combat in terms of rhythm. Familiar concepts are rogues whom hit big, cc, and run away briefly to recover, then repeat. That is a rhythm. This isn't easy to get right, but every class should feel distinct. Bonus points for creating new rhythms that aren't common. Another important aspect are shapes. Some classes might have AOE or attack in perfect circles, or focus on single lines at long distances. Wildstar and Diablo 3 really understood how to theme gameplay around shapes.

I actually disagree, partially, about the rhythm thing. I think how a class (or in this case Archetype) works and the pattern of factors with which they achieve things can easily be heavy-handedly intertwined. The simplest example I can think of is "Ohh, this Archetype is great as long as they're 30 yards away from you, but if you get in close, they're dead." Or, the typical Rogue "You hit really hard and incapacitate people, but otherwise, you have to hit-and-run," etc. Now, I'm not saying just let everyone do all the exact same things. But, simply put, there's more than one way to Mage. There's more than one way to Assassin. I think playing a given Archetype should offer as emergent of gameplay/combat as possible.

 

I think each class has a certain instrument, sure, but not a set rhythm. Not ideally.

 

Otherwise, shnazzy post, :)


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I actually disagree, partially, about the rhythm thing. I think how a class (or in this case Archetype) works and the pattern of factors with which they achieve things can easily be heavy-handedly intertwined. The simplest example I can think of is "Ohh, this Archetype is great as long as they're 30 yards away from you, but if you get in close, they're dead." Or, the typical Rogue "You hit really hard and incapacitate people, but otherwise, you have to hit-and-run," etc. Now, I'm not saying just let everyone do all the exact same things. But, simply put, there's more than one way to Mage. There's more than one way to Assassin. I think playing a given Archetype should offer as emergent of gameplay/combat as possible.

 

I think each class has a certain instrument, sure, but not a set rhythm. Not ideally.

 

Otherwise, shnazzy post, :)

 

That was an example to explain what I call a rhythm because that may not be a universally understood term. I agree, a one trick pony isn't a good option. A player needs options, so having a character that is absolutely crippled in most situations is also not that fun. One thing I am always wary of are glass cannons. Because once it is discovered they have no defenses, avoidance is designed into their kit, and became extremely powerful. Some boundaries are really important so characters can contribute(but not dominate) in common situations that don't fit their ideal scenarios. But, games tend to overbalance so I encourage the opposite. This also makes me think about Morrowind, where athletics(run speed) was a stat. Bethesda streamlined Skyrim so that all players would feel adequately quick. It is the difference between making everyone happy, versus making people insanely satisfied because their character's are set apart from other build choices.

 

Thanks

Edited by Approxy

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One thing I would like to see tested and get results on which is tangential to combat is the physics of zergs, ie get a bunch of characters/players clustered together and run some tests on how they interact with the physics system since body blocking is apparently a thing.

 

What happens when a player in the center of the cluster tries to move and the rest of the group does not?

What happens when the group begins to move forward but a player in the center does not move?

What happens when the players push towards the center?

How does varied terrain effect these physics?

What happens when a group of players moves into a funnel that grows too small for them?

What happens when two opposing groups push into each other?  What happens when one side is larger then the other?

 

 

What I don't want to see again in PvP MMO's is zerging where you don't have body blocking and you can have 20million players standing on top of each other all firing away without a care at any smaller group that's unfortunate to get in their way.  Where you don't need any organization at all on the part of each player, or the zerg leaders.  Just mass up and crush via numerical superiority. 

 

Clustering up should have very real risks to it and require organization in order to be effective.  I'd like to see players be able to line up and move in lockstep, like a Roman Legionnaire in an army. Moving as one, shields raised, swords/spears at the ready.  Working as a single well oiled machine, rather then a herd of sheep.

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^ Some of that we already know. They said that different characters will have differing masses, and that Character A will be able to push Character B out of the way, at a rate proportionate to the difference in their masses/strength (a Centaur will push a Frostweaver out of the way much more easily than vice-versa).

 

But, yeah, the effects of zerging should definitely be tested extensively. Go for it, pre-pre-pre-pre alpha testers! 8D!


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What i'm hoping, due to the nature of these tests, is that they are just using them to get the interactions and physics down between characters in everything else.

 

My biggest fear for this game, and a way that it will definitely not make any real waves, is that the combat is too slowed down so that there is not a great skill curve. They need to follow the easy to learn hard to master mantra but that should really mean hard to master. Someone fresh to the game shouldn't feel effective vs the best player in the game, they should get absolutely stomped. Without that skill curve people do not have anything competitive to strive for and will have very shallow attachment to the game.

 

The most important aspect to combat is movement. People spend most of their time moving around, moreso than they do actually fighting as they play a game, and the movement needs to feel fluid, and well-paced. Make it too slow and it will bore most mainstream gamers to death. It's not hard to find a middle ground there and they can build archetypes for more twitchy players and ones for people that don't like being twitchy.

 

I'm confident in ACE though, so far they've made pretty good decisions for what they plan in the game, and I doubt they will truly ruin pvp just because of a few people that may complain really loudly if there are elements that are too skillful for them.

Thanks Sheen, I can always count on you to come post exactly what I want to convey in combat discussions when I'm feeling too lazy/busy to do so.


Member of The BlackHand Order

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I can just see a thousand former ESO players bitching that such and such class needs to be reworked going to tell all their friends this game sucks, simply based on the pre pre alpha testing. Honestly I wouldn't mind you guys doing an NDA for this early testing, that way you don't have morons running around the internet QQing all day.


   Elder Scrolls Online - Templar/Nightblade Mains      Guild Wars 2 - Necromancer/Thief Mains    http://www.twitch.tv/sommazzatore

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I can just see a thousand former ESO players bitching that such and such class needs to be reworked going to tell all their friends this game sucks, simply based on the pre pre alpha testing. Honestly I wouldn't mind you guys doing an NDA for this early testing, that way you don't have morons running around the internet QQing all day.

 

Those 'morons' aren't the target audience for Crowfall anyway. Please remember: This game is not for everyone.

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Just don't let the immersion monkies and white knights shout down fact based analysis that drives progressive maturation.  

 

In short.

 

dont-suck.png

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This might be the most Sapphire-laden thread on the forums.

 

My backer number is decent, but much higher than it would have been, because they launched the Kickstarter project way earlier than they said they were going to :(


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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Those 'morons' aren't the target audience for Crowfall anyway. Please remember: This game is not for everyone.

Yes but these 'morons' can paint a picture that is not representative of the game for other potential 'non-morons' that might not follow closely and be potential customers. Be careful who you upset on the interwebz, the rage floweth like wine, especially when dealing with games.

Edited by Rancalen

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Yes but these 'morons' can paint a picture that is not representative of the game for other potential 'non-morons' that might not follow closely and be potential customers. Be careful who you upset on the interwebz, the rage floweth like wine, especially when dealing with games.

 

If you maintain secrecy and cater to cretins, you get SWTOR. No one wants SWTOR. Make the game, let the testers talk about it, and benefit from the results. Never, ever worry about the incoherent ravings of the irrational imbeciles, or the credulous fools who listen to them.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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So glad that PvP is being used as the basis, not PvE. So many MMO's fall foul of this, PvP can be used as a stable and competitive basis for a good PvE system. That in turn can be developed without the need for the usual powercreep issues that plague PvE systems due to more powerful gear coming along with an AI that cannot adapt or cope with changes.

 

Really looking forward to seeing how this pans out :)

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Do you think they will use the kickstarter or pledge number here on the site ?

 

for example Im around the 10k mark (yes very late :(( ) but I will also upgrade within the next 2 months to sapphire or maybe ruby. So will I be at around 10k or very far back because I upgrade later ?

 

(I dont have a problem if Im at very far back)

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"Having a solid combat experience means we have a GREAT foundation on which we can build the rest of the game. The opposite is equally true: If the combat system sucks, then the rest of the game—campaigns, kingdoms, fealty trees, etc.—won't matter because no one will care."

 

Especially in this game where there will be no real story to follow ingame..

It has little to make up for it,if combat would be nothing to get too excited about.

In Swtor I can easily forgive that combat is nothing new because the story and space missions are sweet.

I like how both empire and republic can choose the light or dark side.

Will characters be bound to their choice for balance,order,chaos?

If so,it might be cool if it has an impact on progression of that character,visually,but perhaps also an impact on the combat behavior of that character.(faction specific combat behavior could be another stretchgoal)

Example,the set of novice skills are the same for all;it is important that players immediately know what they're are getting into before they get invested in an archetype.

Expert skills could already have a few faction path specific skills..

Some master skills can be very specific,like a druid of chaos could have rootrot,a druid of balance could have inner strength,a druid of order could have healing seed.

I think most important though is a sense of visual progression overtime.

 

"Milestone 1 is laser-focused on the core Combat experience: movement, targeting, physics, animations and power chains. Not the content related to these systems or the game balance, just the systems themselves and the player's ability to interact with those systems. This will likely be the first of many such combat tests because it's highly doubtful we will nail it on our first try. (Technically, our second try since we've already rebuilt most of what you saw in the Kickstarter video.)"

 

Visual progression and faction-specific combat behavior would probably belong to "animations" 

Specific combat behavior also to power chains perhaps..

 

Another important thing to see is that players like different things on the battlefield.

When it comes to things like "movement" and "targeting" "physics" ,pretty much all of them,...

There is no right answer for all archetypes.

Each of them could cater to a different preference when it comes to combat.(we all have different preferences on the matter)

It is ok for archetypes to have different movement speeds.

Some archetypes could have greater impact,like a siege golem could cause greater area destruction.

Others might have more elegant physics,like the assassin.

DIfferent people ,different flavours to satisfy.

When thinking about combat its also important to keep unit diversity in mind.

And this is also something swtor does very well in their galactic starfights;each ship players are able to choose to pvp with is different & diverse,has different strengths and weaknesses

 

SWOR_Premium_Ships_02.jpg

otherwise,know that when you go for 1 answer to all when it comes to combat,people will either love or hate it.

Edited by Tipsy

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I'm excited that you're focusing on combat mechanics.

 

"Mark Bourland (senior developer, barely on-screen), MrMike McShaffry (principal engineer), Nicholas McBride (animator), Thomas Blair (design lead) and Tully Ackland (game designer)."

 

I've been able to a bit of research on these people regarding their past experience in game development, but what I'd like to know is which games they take inspiration from as far as design philosophy of combat mechanics is concerned.

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Good to see the game progress at a good speed. GL to the people selected for this test, too bad i'm in group #3 so probably i've to wait more to test the game features.

Anyway if there isn't NDA just made more video as much as possible so i can see how the combat system will turn to be and make a first impression.


Archduchess Alice

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I am concerned over what I think is the targeting method being proposed for the combat systems, which is aim and shoot/hit. I have the beginning stages of Parkinson and have a very difficult time trying to accurately track/target a opponent just using the mouse cursor. Will some provision be made for those people with that sort of disability?


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Hopefully some of those that is picked for testing will stream it, would love to see it in action  B)

 

"Testers will be selected in order. That means that we'll start at the beginning of the list of pre-alpha testers and invite people until we have as many as we need. If we need more, we'll invite more until we have enough and then we'll stop. Testers won't be bound by an NDA so they will be able to talk freely on the forums, in podcasts, etc."

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