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Griefing vs Emergent Gameplay - Where is the line?

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I've been logging a lot of time in Tera, waiting for CF testing to begin. Yesterday they released a new class, and a large number of players on the PvP servers marked the new class as KoS. So there were large groups flagged for PvP, waiting at all of the early choke points.

 

What made it interesting, though, was that other groups came out to attack the griefers. So there was conflict at all of the choke points between people trying to kill lowbies and people protecting them, and the ones just trying to quest. Add to that the low levels flagged for PvP and killing each other anyway.. it was mayhem, and ridiculously fun.

 

That kind of thing is why I want to be on a PvP server.. Random fights while doing my daily stuff can be fun, but large-scale, server-wide conflict is so much better.

 

The GM's eventually stepped in and started banning people who were killing masses of lowbies and not allowing them to progress. I understood why, but felt like it was a missed chance for more interesting gameplay. I'm curious where the feelings of the ArtCraft crew land on similar matters.

 

Where do you draw the line between something that's a problem, and something that is an opportunity for conflict and emergent gameplay?

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If your game is designed so that bottlenecks along a linear mandatory path which every new character must follow can be blockaded by malicious players, that's a design failure.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

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Ask 10 people and you'll get 10 different answers.

 

For me the line is when the attacked player has no recourse to fight back or avoid the behavior. As always though the Dev is the one that's really sets where the line is.

 

Besides most stuff that some might see as fun gameplay is just bad game design IMO.

 

Also the "fun" is very subjective. Sure it might be fun the the greifer but not so much for the greifee. So when most say how fun that stuff is they are only looking at it from the greifer pov.

Edited by pang

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Some comments were made about ACE stance on griefing here:  Player Experience & Self-Policing Suggestion Thread

 

Killing people is not griefing in Crowfall, so the example you mentioned with Tera would not be considered "griefing" and it would not result in bans.

I think the more important point to make though is not having a game designed that poorly that allows that behavior. There are no lvls in this game, no starter zones, so you won't be able to grief lowbies to begin with.

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I think it is a bit silly to say there is "no line."   Of course there is.  If you violate the code of conduct you'll have crossed it.

 

But the good news is that the "emergent gameplay" mentioned in the OP is welcomed in this game. That behavior would not be considered griefing here.  There are lots of things that people casually call "griefing" that will not be against the code of conduct here.  So the concept of a "line" makes some sense.

 

We probably need better terminology though.  People hear different things when you say "griefing" and it leads to misunderstanding.


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Killing you over and over is not crossing the line. Calling you a noob is not crossing the line.

 

Making a personal attack is crossing the line. Cheating is crossing the line.

 

Rules simplified.

Edited by CheckYoSelf

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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Some comments were made about ACE stance on griefing here:  Player Experience & Self-Policing Suggestion Thread

 

Killing people is not griefing in Crowfall, so the example you mentioned with Tera would not be considered "griefing" and it would not result in bans.

 

Valid point, but I'm not asking specifically about killing. This was a design flaw in the game that was being exploited, and around that exploit an entire system of conflict emerged between 3 massive groups of players. And then it got shut down, just when it was interesting.

 

I fully expect that CF will encourage this type of conflict, I'm just curious if there are thoughts on where the line between broken and unexpected lands. Is it a bug or a feature?

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Valid point, but I'm not asking specifically about killing. This was a design flaw in the game that was being exploited, and around that exploit an entire system of conflict emerged between 3 massive groups of players. And then it got shut down, just when it was interesting.

 

I fully expect that CF will encourage this type of conflict, I'm just curious if there are thoughts on where the line between broken and unexpected lands. Is it a bug or a feature?

If there is a strategic advantage in the design of the game why would it be considered griefing? Edited by CheckYoSelf

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

SWrkfdj.jpg

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 The GM's eventually stepped in and started banning people who were killing masses of lowbies and not allowing them to progress.

That's abuse of power. Think of how much time and money was probably put into those characters. Why would a GM do that without warning them. Glad I got bored of tera because you can glitch out of literally every zone.

 

That's a bad move. Ganking, although scummy, should not lead to a ban...


[TB] The Balance
Nation of Equilibrium

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I'm not sure where the line for briefing is.

Somewhere between autocorrect and self correct.


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

SWrkfdj.jpg

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That's abuse of power. Think of how much time and money was probably put into those characters. Why would a GM do that without warning them. Glad I got bored of tera because you can glitch out of literally every zone.

 

That's a bad move. Ganking, although scummy, should not lead to a ban...

They were warned. After a certain point, high levels in that area flagged for PvP got banned.

 

Beside the point though.

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They were warned. After a certain point, high levels in that area flagged for PvP got banned.

 

Beside the point though.

 

What offense were they banned for?


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