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Griefing vs Emergent Gameplay - Where is the line?

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They were warned not to play the game within the design of the game? Devs are at fault here, not the player. They should've designed their game better. One of the hardest parts of Shadowbane at launch was getting ganked just oustide of the safeholds after leaving newbie land. High rank players would spend their whole day trying to gank you over and over again, waiting in stealth for you to leave a safehold. No one got banned. That's the way the game was made. If the devs on that game don't want that to happen, sounds like they need to increase the safezone.

 

If these devs do anything like this, I'm out.

Edited by headlight

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They were warned. After a certain point, high levels in that area flagged for PvP got banned.

 

Beside the point though.

Well that kind of answers your question though. In that case the line was clear, It was crossed and punishment was given out. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

But yeah poster above was right about terms. Need to figure out what you mean before can discuss properly. Greifing, exploiting, ganking all those have different definitions to almost everyone so need to be clear as to what we are talking about here.

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They were warned. After a certain point, high levels in that area flagged for PvP got banned.

 

Beside the point though.

I see that as lose of revenue... still dumb.

 

 

In my opinion ganking is simple a tactic.. camping a spawn point is griefing only if its pointless killing. Which in Tera's case it was kind of senseless violence.

 

Banning is harsh for griefing.

Edited by Kiro Elmarok

[TB] The Balance
Nation of Equilibrium

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What offense were they banned for?

You have this thing about being super specific.

 

The exploit at that time was that there's a line of progression you have to follow which eventually forces players into choke points, and large enough groups of over-leveled PK'ers there were able to stop the progression of a great many players. It was an issue of game design.

 

IMO there were ways around most of it, but obviously there was enough crying that GMs got involved.

 

I have no idea what reason they gave for the ban.

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Tera sounds like a horrible game.

Edited by CheckYoSelf

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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well I guess strategic camping and spawnkilling will be a thing here too. It's just that ganking will be a lot harder (if ACE implements things the way they say) and the fact that you can lose your stuff at death makes it also less desirable. 

 

Also Tera is not a good example how to handle PvP & PvE zones. Everything besides the combat system (which is a good try but not a perfect one) is standard level or worse. Had potential. After many months the same old thing remains and nothing evolves or w.e. 

 

And to add something: currently there is no "line" you could cross. And I hope there will never be a line we can cross regarding ganking & such. I was ganked many times in many different games. The contra thing was I ganked the one who ganked me with a few friends. So what?

 

If a GM/Dev/or w.e. clearly put up borderlines then you have them. And if you cross them - prepare for punishment. 

Edited by Thyr

You get the wolves...lots of wolves...and sheep that wear armor and have developed an appetite for blood soaked grass - dubanka

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Tera is definitely not a good example - but it points to a general issue. The question is not "should you ignore a GM who says leave"?

 

It's at what point a GM should have the power to push the gameplay like that, even if unintended. When it happens in the game, it's already too late to talk about the issue.

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Tera is definitely not a good example - but it points to a general issue. The question is not "should you ignore a GM who says leave"?

 

It's at what point a GM should have the power to push the gameplay like that, even if unintended. When it happens in the game, it's already too late to talk about the issue.

Well its their game. If something is happening that they didn't intend and don't want to happen either by poor design or oversight and they tell you to stop the behavior it has caused then why should that be an issue. Just stop, move on until they can tweak and fix that part of game and don't exploit it. If they ban you after warning and telling you to stop that's on you. Seems simple to me.  

Edited by pang

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Exploit every advantage you have. Crush the enemy and present their severed heads to the GM and say, "Do something mother custard"


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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It should be entirely on the players to dictate what they want to do, if a player is griefing let the population / server deal with him not a GM, they got better things to do.

Agree 100%. Emergent gameplay is created when the players dictate their own actions, not when the GMs do.


"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.. and gerbils on crowcaine."

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Yeah, banning the players on that Tera situation was just stupid, let people kill each other. I'm glad Crowfall is PvP focussed so there is no such line. Getting owned? Walk it off.


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Guild Leader/ High Elder

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I agree that was a design problem. Too many players had nothing else to do to walk to that choke point and too many high lvls had nothing better to do than camping them. If the game is more open and there are many objectives to focus on many different lvl caps ( more than one thing to do at low, mid and high lvls ) then that kind of situation could happen but wouldnt last for long ( people would get bored, guild leader could call them to do something usefull etc. ).

 

GMs should never intervene, especially in open world pvp centric mmo.

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Comments like there are only going to get worse guys; once everyone realizes they lose their armor/inventory and what wasn't lost gets degraded every time they kill.

I promise being griefed until you're naked will be a thing. That will probably be the stopping point for most.


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I see that as lose of revenue... still dumb.

 

 

In my opinion ganking is simple a tactic.. camping a spawn point is griefing only if its pointless killing. Which in Tera's case it was kind of senseless violence.

 

Banning is harsh for griefing.

 

The loss of revenue though will be slightly higher when players getting griefed leave the game. 1 higher ranked/level/whatever player can wipe the floor with multiple lower players and they typically do so. As a company you chance the loss of many instead of the removal of a few. This being a game without levels will have this somewhat curbed but can still happen as in some campaigns i believe you may/could drop into the world without anything to aid you. Griefers will most likely roam to find helpless new players to pick on as the campaign progresses. I am unsure if there has been any information regarding how spawning after death takes place. If you have to run back to your corpse via graveyard then corpse camping will ensue.

 

I already know what will be said about my first sentence "Huh, then they shouldn't be playing a pvp game" to them i say way to justify your harassment of others /golfclap

Edited by wolfuse

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I have said numerous times.  My guild will play as hard in alpha and betas as it does on release.  We will be looking for these "game flaws".  We will report these flaws and exploits to the appropriate people.  If CrowFall does not fix what we consider "game flaws" or "exploits" we will consider them game mechanics and use them on release. 

 

Way back in my early UO days we were allowed to macro afk.  It was actually an allowed behavior.  UO got bought out and a "tyrant" started running it.  Over night they make it against the TOS to macro afk to get rid of being red.  I am in hopes that communication will be handled better by the "tyrant" in this game.  I do not want all of my accounts to get banned because of poor game designs.

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Somewhere between autocorrect and self correct.

I was going to say the line is about the waist.

Edited by Rancalen

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