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Griefing vs Emergent Gameplay - Where is the line?

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Griefing in a game without vertical levels is kinda silly. Exploits and cheats sure, they need to be punished, but grieving honestly is part of the package deal of being able to do anything you want to another player, its simply not gonna support a thriving political scene if you are limited in your actions because of some arbitrarily defined concept.

 

Just an opinion.

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killing people is (will be) part of the game.

 

killing them to the point they become demoralized, is (or should be) part of the game.

 

killing to the point their their level of demoralization causes them to abandon their current campaign and find a campaign where they might suck less...is, or should be, part of the game.

 

in various points of view, any of the above could/would be considered griefing...the in the environment i hope we find ourselves in, i would hope that none of them are.

Edited by dubanka

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Griefing in a game without vertical levels is kinda silly. Exploits and cheats sure, they need to be punished, but grieving honestly is part of the package deal of being able to do anything you want to another player, its simply not gonna support a thriving political scene if you are limited in your actions because of some arbitrarily defined concept.

 

Just an opinion.

 

This is why I felt it was a question worth asking. At some point there will be an issue, and mass-crying will ensue. There will be pressure from many paying customers for the game company to take action. Artcraft is not unaware of this, the Eternal Kingdom design isn't an accident. They know people can be griefed out of a game, even if it's about PvP from the beginning.

 

I figure it's worth talking about early.

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This is why I felt it was a question worth asking. At some point there will be an issue, and mass-crying will ensue. There will be pressure from many paying customers for the game company to take action. Artcraft is not unaware of this, the Eternal Kingdom design isn't an accident. They know people can be griefed out of a game, even if it's about PvP from the beginning.

 

I figure it's worth talking about early.

I was wondering when someone would mention the EKs


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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To be honest, Tera is a bad example. A lot of games are bad examples of how to handle PvP because there is nothing quite like Crowfall out there. Tera is PvE based and level based, NOT the same thing as Crowfall at all. There will be no linear quest lines or "high-level PKers" in Crowfall. If there were an apples to apples comparison that would be one thing, but I can't think of anything that's on an equal playing field.

 

When I think griefing, I think of the generic example of a "classic" MMO. As we know Crowfall is not a classic MMO; therefore, we need to change how we think about things like griefing.

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Griefing is abusing other players outside the terms of service. There is no other line.

 

exactly this.

 

People need to get it in their head, that just because someone is ruining your fun, it doesn't automatically mean that that person is griefing you.

Edited by freeze

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The loss of revenue though will be slightly higher when players getting griefed leave the game. 1 higher ranked/level/whatever player can wipe the floor with multiple lower players and they typically do so. As a company you chance the loss of many instead of the removal of a few. This being a game without levels will have this somewhat curbed but can still happen as in some campaigns i believe you may/could drop into the world without anything to aid you. Griefers will most likely roam to find helpless new players to pick on as the campaign progresses. I am unsure if there has been any information regarding how spawning after death takes place. If you have to run back to your corpse via graveyard then corpse camping will ensue.

 

I already know what will be said about my first sentence "Huh, then they shouldn't be playing a pvp game" to them i say way to justify your harassment of others /golfclap

Take off the huh and you got an exact quote, then again thats the current mind set of the crowfall community. Which will be constantly changing as "MMO hoppers" come in, its bound to happen. At least you can feel the pulse of the current community. ;)

Edited by Kiro Elmarok

[TB] The Balance
Nation of Equilibrium

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exactly this.

 

People need to get it in their head, that just because someone is ruining your fun, it doesn't automatically mean that that person is griefing you.

 

It makes plenty of sense, but seems like wishful thinking to me. Just given what I've seen happen so far.

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'Griefing' is a term people use after they've been told a tactic employed against them is not an exploit or unintended part of play intended to shame the 'griefer' in to agreeing to some community imposed rule they have no obligation to abide by.

 

Simply put, if you can do it, it's a legitimate tactic, unless it's obviously outside the normal scope of play. If it's obviously outside the normal scope of play, that falls under exploits you should be reporting.

 

The anecdote of a game that actually banned people for engaging in PvP in a ruleset that allowed them to kill those lowbies in the first place is hilarious. That's not some esoteric bug or exploit. That's literally how they designed the game.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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The GM's eventually stepped in and started banning people who were killing masses of lowbies and not allowing them to progress.

a. You can't ban out of bad game design

b. Any game that bans for PvP, in any form, is a carebear title not worth my patronage

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To me, griefing is when you act to prevent others from playing the game in such a way that they can't do anything avoid it or overcome it.
It's almost always a result of poor game design.

 

In EQ you respawned at your bind point naked with low health and no mana. Anyone who found your spawn point could bind camp you and there was nothing you could do except stop playing the game. Bad game design combined with an obnoxious child to ruin the gameplay experience of others. It's the textbook case of griefing.

 

In Shadowbane, you always respawned either at a safe location (at least as safe as your guild could make it) or at a random location that couldn't be predicted and camped. I never felt like I was being griefed in SB except on newb island where you had no recourse because other players were invulnerable. There wasn't an insurmountable level gap that made the high level invulnerable and let the low level get one shot. You also had the option to go elsewhere in SB because the leveling path wasn't lenear. That leads to fights, strategy and politics. When bad intentions meet good game design emergent gameplay occurs.

 

In the Tera example, you had grieing because of bad game design. A narrow corridor that low levels have to follow to advance because they can't reach any content for their level without going through it. High level players are invulnerable to low levels and one shot them. There is no PvP or gameplay there; only griefing.

 

In Crowfall there shouldn't be any way to grief people. You respawn at your guild or faction's base surrounded by walls and allies. There's no linear progression path or insurmountable gear/level advantage, and the world isn't a corridor funneling players from one batch of content to the next. Like Shadowbane, you have good game design and so there isn't any actual way to grief people.

 

I see that as lose of revenue... still dumb.


In my opinion ganking is simple a tactic.. camping a spawn point is griefing only if its pointless killing. Which in Tera's case it was kind of senseless violence.

Banning is harsh for griefing.

 

Banning people who are running hundreds of customers out of your game is an excellent business decision.

 

Tera sounds like a horrible game.

 

Tera is like GW2. An awful game with amazing combat that makes people want to play it anyway.

Edited by caffynated

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If your game is designed so that bottlenecks along a linear mandatory path which every new character must follow can be blockaded by malicious players, that's a design failure.

 

I disagree.

 

Guilds exist for a reason.

 

These are social games for a reason.


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