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Griefing vs Emergent Gameplay - Where is the line?

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I really don't think it'll be a problem at all in Crowfall. But, I'd say the line is where some subset (in this case, people who just happen to be new) of players are being specifically targeted, and there's not really anything in place to stop them from being selectively griefed. In the Tera example, yeah, there were bands of people fighting against the bands of newbie-slayers. But, there were still some newbies who were having a miserable time of things purely because some players wanted to make them have a miserable time of things. That's pretty much bad design, though, because in a level-based game, a newbie has no chance against a veteran. Even a super-skilled "newbie" (new character, not-new player) versus a veteran character controlled by a highly unskilled player. That's just how the game is coded. LvL 70 beats LvL 5.

 

In Crowfall, even if you CAN somehow grief noobs, the game isn't designed such that you aren't able to contribute or take anyone down until you're max level. Sure, an army of newbs versus an army of veterans is going to be no contest. BUT, I bet the newbs will still be able to do some damage before they go down. They might even be able to use attrition-based tactics, and/or other tactics -- basically to make it cost the veterans a lot more than it costs the newbs, even though they "lose." You know, "We'll light our own city on fire, and just focus on trapping you inside, MUAHAHAHA!" Etc.

 

But, you won't really have to worry about players trying to set up gank spots specifically against newbs, for example, because the whole enemy team's goal will be to annihilate everyone on your team. And you won't have to worry about maybe some groups of players on your team going out to fight any enemy groups, because it will be the entire purpose of every combatant on your team. They won't just be like "Screw you, I don't care if they come pillage our city. I just want to go pick flowers. I have the means to get away/not-die, so I don't care if they kill all my teammates."

 

So, I dunno. Beyond reasonable amounts of situational imbalance, I don't think anything'll be extreme enough to be called griefing, beyond bugs or crazy-weird OP early-alpha values that'll be tweaked into submission (like "Oh, it turns out you can get a trebuchet to kill people instantly if you get a bunch of people to push it sideways into them. Also, it won't take any damage while it's doing that!")


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there isnt a line, it all owns

Exactly this game is built on open pvp in the campaigns , plus your items will be looted and take damage. What is probably recommended would be to join a guild immediately or friends so when you enter campaigns you roll around with an entourage instead of being solo........

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Well, in the beginning of Kickstarter they had the discussion about how their game is PVP oriented & that "some people won't like it and they will leave, and thats OK!". Considering those words alone you know that there will be griefing in the game, its just evident.

 

There will be mechanics to make it so you dont respawn in the immediate area of your attacker but if they want to find you constantly then you will be dead... and its a kill or be killed world, which became more evident when they introduced the hunger aspect of the game.

 

All and all, the individuals who prefer "easy leveling" and "dungeon raid to win" gameplay simply wont like this game, its mechanic and vision simply doesnt support that. It supports breaking edge pvp, and thats what we are all here for.


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+1 OP, totally agree with Emergent Griefing.


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Given that this is a skill-based MMORPG and respawns will likely be within city walls, there will be no griefing potential. If you die, it's because you suck. Get better or go home. 


The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

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Given that this is a skill-based MMORPG and respawns will likely be within city walls, there will be no griefing potential. If you die, it's because you suck. Get better or go home. 

 

"Get good or get got"


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I think this is where the concept of campaigns really shines in Crowfall.  In other games that have a mix of PvP and PvE you have two different player bases that have different ideas about what is fun, and what their objective is while playing.

 

You think picking a fight while questing is a great time, while that person just wanted to finish a quest before logging out and gets their jimmies rustled. The solution that was presented was a binary choice of PvP/PvE server rules that left most people half satisfied. That's like having an ice cream store with only 2 flavors. Everyone wants to play on their terms, but the flexibility/choices weren't really there. 

 

That's where campaigns seem like they hit that sweet spot. It sounds like there's plenty of choices for campaigns to cover a real wide range of player comfort zones. If you're having a bad time, you're probably playing in a campaign with a rule set that doesn't fit you. 

 

tldr: Crowfall has 32 flavors

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I'd rather see the combat and power scheme designed to naturally counteract certain behaviors, but everything's contextual, the solution is dependant on the setting.

 

I'm more concerned about the raw gameplay elements and that their designed to directly improve experiences.


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Players will solve some of these problems anyhow. You get griefed, then you get an invite to run with an unskilled zerg that finds safety in numbers like Lantern Watch. Then when Lantern Watch gets owned by a skilled guild, they call in a skilled zerg like PAX. Then when PAX runs around zerging, the other guilds form a counter zerg. And blah blah, so on and so forth, campaign wipes, rinse and repeat.

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The GM's eventually stepped in and started banning people who were killing masses of lowbies and not allowing them to progress. I understood why, but felt like it was a missed chance for more interesting gameplay. I'm curious where the feelings of the ArtCraft crew land on similar matters.

 

 

 

Wooow they really did that? What a poorly made socksty game, lol. I'm glad i never played that crap, haha. 

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That's where campaigns seem like they hit that sweet spot. It sounds like there's plenty of choices for campaigns to cover a real wide range of player comfort zones. If you're having a bad time, you're probably playing in a campaign with a rule set that doesn't fit you. 

That is exacly my point that i made in my last post. There should be plenty of other things to do if you are stuck in one place because of griefers. And that also explains the problem that OP mentioned in Tera - players were stuck in that quest that was linerar and had nothing else to do at that time. I would be frustrated too if i were in their place.

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Depends entirely on the campaign.

 

Step into the Dregs and you want to fight someone, go for it. Get wrecked? Too bad.

 

Godsreach is different, attack or harass people on your faction and expect ACE to eventually ban you.

 

IMO the outer two rings are obviously going to generate far more support issues than the inner two. There are always going to be losers too soft for actual PvP who want to troll their team. If you want to try blocking people or being a pest with physics in the Dregs you're just going to get stabbed. So all of those types will migrate further out and 'hilariously' grief their teammates. Bonus points for abusing the friendly fire prevention system that ACE was spitballing about to get the victim banned.


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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Depends entirely on the campaign.

 

Step into the Dregs and you want to fight someone, go for it. Get wrecked? Too bad.

 

Godsreach is different, attack or harass people on your faction and expect ACE to eventually ban you.

 

IMO the outer two rings are obviously going to generate far more support issues than the inner two. There are always going to be losers too soft for actual PvP who want to player their team. If you want to try blocking people or being a pest with physics in the Dregs you're just going to get stabbed. So all of those types will migrate further out and 'hilariously' grief their teammates. Bonus points for abusing the friendly fire prevention system that ACE was spitballing about to get the victim banned.

What? Why would they create a system where they will have to ban you?

If they don't want people to attack their own side at all, turn off friendly fire.

Of they want to discourage it, apply a mechanical punishment.

 

No need to start banning


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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PAX

Pax

 

 

As to answer OP's question...

 

The amount of griefing that will be tolerated will largely depend upon the games success in it's allowable state.  If griefing becomes such of an issue that it drives mass amounts of players away causing financial problems for ACE then it will be cleaned up.  If it becomes accepted as part of the game and people get used to it while still continuing to play then it'll be tolerated.

 

If you doubt my answer, look at the things that have been policed here on the forums, and the reasons for them being policed.


[@--(o.O)@]

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We probably need better terminology though.  People hear different things when you say "griefing" and it leads to misunderstanding.

 

Griefing means I made you and the baby jesus cry.

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Per some comments above, there should be near-zero griefing in Crowfall.  EK rulers will have admin-level powers that allow booting of undesireables.  What is left?  The campaign worlds?  Griefers do not fare well in settings where their "victims" are heavily-armed PVPers and the combat system is not level based (e.g. the griefer doesn't get to be a level 80 running around killing level 10s).  It is likelier griefers will be the ones to /ragequit and head back to [insert name of flawed MMO that provides better opportunities to grief].

 

A lot of what people are calling griefing is not.  Getting chased around and killed repeatedly?  Get strong and fight back.  Getting called names?  If it bothers you, turn on /ignore for that person.  Your tiny guild massacred by the server horde?  That's how the cookie crumbles.  If you don't want to take on the challenge (or see things as hopeless - no shame in that), you can move to another campaign - Uncle Bob can't be everywhere (hopefully).

Edited by cemya

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