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Griefing vs Emergent Gameplay - Where is the line?

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Video game is not place for grieving. When die in video game is not real, you are still life. Have no reason to grieve.

 

F


☆ We are in a positive posting drought, so just post. Be the change you want the forums to be. Go wild. Just follow your positive posting star. ☆
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(¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯) Member of the Pro-ACE Club (¯`’•.¸*♫♪♥(✿◠‿◠)♥♫♪*¸.•’´¯)

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Man, apples and oranges.

 

I started playing Tera today and I started pk'ing a few people as a Slayer. I didn't cry or throw a fit when some bored as custard higher leveled player one shotted me. I knew the design there was seriously flawed when they have safe spots and people running away to the safespots instead of trying to kill you. I netted so much more kills from people just fleeing desperately. It's a PvP server, the custard are you doing, FIGHT ME.

 

They have an infamy system too, which is bad. Any higher level player pks you, has to grind off infamy or he's KoS to anyone. Yea, the PvP is actually a TOGGLE and you have to activate it to pk. It's dumb lol but it's better than playing the PvE side. It's pretty much a WoW clone in most regards except for the really interesting combat, that's the ONLY thing it has going for it.

 

It's only considered griefing if the developers enable people because they are trying to band-aid fix the flaws.

 

DUDE, you have SAFE ZONES, and you can TOGGLE the PVP. So if you get ganked, why are you bitching about it? What the custard? Where's your accountability for your consequences. If you can't handle it, turn it off and go play PvE. There's also like 5 other channels on the same server you can just run away to. Jesus christ~ The bans, please~ What a joke. 4chan /vg/ threads were having a laugh about it and posting .webms of one shotting newbies. It's all because they're bored.

 

Plus if you're trying to compare griefing from an antiquated view point, ofc it's going to seem unfair. higher level players are the uncle bobs already. They're just blocking the line for you, that's the design flaw. If you remove artificial content like leveling and just introduce pvp on a fighting chance ground, then those players don't need to grind arbitrarily to catch up and then gank the high players. Seriously... it's just that simple. Come on. Just kill them back~

 

God forbid you introduce a toggle function to your pvp so you can ninja gank the custard out of those poor bastards mindlessly hacking away at mobs.

Edited by Lastgirl~

The most important thing is to enjoy your life - to be happy - it's all that matters. - Audrey Hepburn “:♡.•♬✧⁽⁽ଘ( ˊᵕˋ )ଓ⁾⁾*+:•*∴
Read more at brainyquote.com/search_results.html#KTJ4dHyeiltlKOTM.99

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The line between griefing and the emergent gameplay, is where players start quitting and the company running the game starts losing revenue. So the line could be totally different for different player strata, and depend on the what type of players it was marketed for.

Edited by rajah

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Man, apples and oranges.

 

I started playing Tera today and I started pk'ing a few people as a Slayer. I didn't cry or throw a fit when some bored as custard higher leveled player one shotted me. I knew the design there was seriously flawed when they have safe spots and people running away to the safespots instead of trying to kill you. I netted so much more kills from people just fleeing desperately. It's a PvP server, the custard are you doing, FIGHT ME.

 

They have an infamy system too, which is bad. Any higher level player pks you, has to grind off infamy or he's KoS to anyone. Yea, the PvP is actually a TOGGLE and you have to activate it to pk. It's dumb lol but it's better than playing the PvE side. It's pretty much a WoW clone in most regards except for the really interesting combat, that's the ONLY thing it has going for it.

 

It's only considered griefing if the developers enable people because they are trying to band-aid fix the flaws.

 

DUDE, you have SAFE ZONES, and you can TOGGLE the PVP. So if you get ganked, why are you bitching about it? What the custard? Where's your accountability for your consequences. If you can't handle it, turn it off and go play PvE. There's also like 5 other channels on the same server you can just run away to. Jesus christ~ The bans, please~ What a joke. 4chan /vg/ threads were having a laugh about it and posting .webms of one shotting newbies. It's all because they're bored.

 

Plus if you're trying to compare griefing from an antiquated view point, ofc it's going to seem unfair. higher level players are the uncle bobs already. They're just blocking the line for you, that's the design flaw. If you remove artificial content like leveling and just introduce pvp on a fighting chance ground, then those players don't need to grind arbitrarily to catch up and then gank the high players. Seriously... it's just that simple. Come on. Just kill them back~

 

God forbid you introduce a toggle function to your pvp so you can ninja gank the custard out of those poor bastards mindlessly hacking away at mobs.

Who are you talking to?

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Man, apples and oranges.

 

I started playing Tera today and I started pk'ing a few people as a Slayer. I didn't cry or throw a fit when some bored as custard higher leveled player one shotted me. I knew the design there was seriously flawed when they have safe spots and people running away to the safespots instead of trying to kill you. I netted so much more kills from people just fleeing desperately. It's a PvP server, the custard are you doing, FIGHT ME.

 

They have an infamy system too, which is bad. Any higher level player pks you, has to grind off infamy or he's KoS to anyone. Yea, the PvP is actually a TOGGLE and you have to activate it to pk. It's dumb lol but it's better than playing the PvE side. It's pretty much a WoW clone in most regards except for the really interesting combat, that's the ONLY thing it has going for it.

 

It's only considered griefing if the developers enable people because they are trying to band-aid fix the flaws.

 

DUDE, you have SAFE ZONES, and you can TOGGLE the PVP. So if you get ganked, why are you bitching about it? What the custard? Where's your accountability for your consequences. If you can't handle it, turn it off and go play PvE. There's also like 5 other channels on the same server you can just run away to. Jesus christ~ The bans, please~ What a joke. 4chan /vg/ threads were having a laugh about it and posting .webms of one shotting newbies. It's all because they're bored.

 

Plus if you're trying to compare griefing from an antiquated view point, ofc it's going to seem unfair. higher level players are the uncle bobs already. They're just blocking the line for you, that's the design flaw. If you remove artificial content like leveling and just introduce pvp on a fighting chance ground, then those players don't need to grind arbitrarily to catch up and then gank the high players. Seriously... it's just that simple. Come on. Just kill them back~

 

God forbid you introduce a toggle function to your pvp so you can ninja gank the custard out of those poor bastards mindlessly hacking away at mobs.

 

There is no PvP toggle. You have a friendly fire toggle that lets you choose whether to damage friendly and neutral players, but you can be attacked by anyone at any time outside of a quest hub.


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Almost anything should be allowed in Crowfall, BUT, your reputation should be duly effected. As such, because of the nature of this game, the ONLY way a player should be able to change their name is by deleting their character and making a new one.

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What? Why would they create a system where they will have to ban you?

If they don't want people to attack their own side at all, turn off friendly fire.

Of they want to discourage it, apply a mechanical punishment.

 

No need to start banning

 

ACE has mooted both options, they want FF to stay on if they can do it.

 

  1. No FF: You can now physics block teammates to troll them and they can't retaliate.
  2. Mechanical punishment: Piss someone off by physics blocking until they shoot you. /lol when they get whatever the punishment is.

 

Case in point, World of Tanks went for option two. Pushing allies off cliffs or parking behind them so they can't retreat are common troll moves. If you shoot back you're the one who gets banned by the automated mechanical punishment for team damage.


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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If your game is designed so that bottlenecks along a linear mandatory path which every new character must follow can be blockaded by malicious players, that's a design failure.

Quoted because its what i wanted to say but you said it better. 

 

When you say when do you draw the line I suspect you mean as a dev or GM when you step in. The first thing the devs and GMs should consider before taking action is instead of just dishing out punishment is there anyway to correct the problem by giving the players more freedom.

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I will let ACE mandate what will be griefing and what won't. That said I expect very few if any events will have cause to be called griefing.

 

CF isn't like many other MMO's that were hybrid PVE questing, raids, etc that bottlenecks could be exploited, and PVP. This is a PVP game. The whole point is to kill the enemy in any fashion possible. In some campaigns, friendly fire is on, and expect asshats to be killing their own, but even that is not griefing, just bad social skills.

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Urban Dictionary has an interesting definition for "Griefer" and Wikipedia has an excellent entry on "Griefing" Minecraft is the real boss of definitions for griefing, as that's the openest of open sandbox pvp games.

 

I see a common element in that griefers grief in a malicious effort to disrupt another player's enjoyment of the game. 

 

Per the current ArtCraft Code of Conduct, we agree not to do many things, including...

  • defame, libel, ridicule, mock, stalk, threaten, harass, intimidate or abuse anyone, hatefully, racially, ethnically or, in a reasonable person's view, otherwise offensive or objectionable;
  • Interfere with the ability of others to enjoy using an ArtCraft Service or take actions that interfere with or materially increase the cost to provide a ArtCraft Service for the enjoyment of all its users.                               
My problem with such blanket statements (ACE's) is that they are open to interpretation on a long spectrum of individuals' personal connotations. Personally, I would like to see a more clearly defined set of terms when Crowfall goes live. Edited by Iridian ShadowWeaver

Click your profile name>Click Manage Ignore Prefs>Find "Add a new user to my list" at the bottom of the page>Type in a username>Check options>Save Changes>Silence is bliss.

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Urban Dictionary has an interesting definition for "Griefer" and Wikipedia has an excellent entry on "Griefing" Minecraft is the real boss of definitions for griefing, as that's the openest of open sandbox pvp games.

 

I see a common element in that griefers grief in a malicious effort to disrupt another player's enjoyment of the game. 

 

Per the current ArtCraft Code of Conduct, we agree not to do many things, including...

  • defame, libel, ridicule, mock, stalk, threaten, harass, intimidate or abuse anyone, hatefully, racially, ethnically or, in a reasonable person's view, otherwise offensive or objectionable;
  • Interfere with the ability of others to enjoy using an ArtCraft Service or take actions that interfere with or materially increase the cost to provide a ArtCraft Service for the enjoyment of all its users.                               
My problem with such blanket statements (ACE's) is that they are open to interpretation on a long spectrum of individuals' personal connotations. Personally, I would like to see a more clearly defined set of terms when Crowfall goes live.

 

Pretty sure its purposefully vague so it can be applied on a situation by situation basis. Meaning if they get too specific then people will try to skirt the rules and claim innocence when the rule doesn't exactly apply to their case. Each situation is different so having it be vague means they can better apply the rule to the specific situation.  

 

Bottom line as always should simply be, don't be a jerk, don't take thing's too far  and you won't have to worry about it.

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Pretty sure its purposefully vague so it can be applied on a situation by situation basis. Meaning if they get too specific then people will try to skirt the rules and claim innocence when the rule doesn't exactly apply to their case. Each situation is different so having it be vague means they can better apply the rule to the specific situation.  

 

Bottom line as always should simply be, don't be a jerk, don't take thing's too far  and you won't have to worry about it.

"Meaning if they get too specific then people will try to skirt the rules and claim innocence when the rule doesn't exactly apply to their case."

 

This is true; it reminds me of raising my teen. He's always ready to talk semantics!

 

"Bottom line as always should simply be, don't be a jerk, don't take thing's too far  and you won't have to worry about it."

 

^^^^^ The golden rule^^^^^

Edited by Iridian ShadowWeaver

Click your profile name>Click Manage Ignore Prefs>Find "Add a new user to my list" at the bottom of the page>Type in a username>Check options>Save Changes>Silence is bliss.

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There is no PvP toggle. You have a friendly fire toggle that lets you choose whether to damage friendly and neutral players, but you can be attacked by anyone at any time outside of a quest hub.

 

Still dumb. But thanks. But that's like a first impression, I had no trouble getting through. The point still stands, toggle friendly fire? You're pretty much in another safe area most of the time. It's another safety mechanism to ninja gank :)

 

the man.

 

Yea, the man. Cos like, he's holding us back and poorly made socks. Power to the players. THE man, that's been holding pvp gameplay hostage for a decade.

 

 

Who are you talking to?

 

Usually in a forum, you throw out an opinion on the subject, it doesn't have to be related to a person. Adding SeventhBeacon to the KoS list btw. What the custard is that about?~ :) You don't know who I'm talking to? bugger, it ain't you either. I ain't talking to anyone but THE man, and you are THE man.

Edited by Lastgirl~

The most important thing is to enjoy your life - to be happy - it's all that matters. - Audrey Hepburn “:♡.•♬✧⁽⁽ଘ( ˊᵕˋ )ଓ⁾⁾*+:•*∴
Read more at brainyquote.com/search_results.html#KTJ4dHyeiltlKOTM.99

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Usually in a forum, you throw out an opinion on the subject, it doesn't have to be related to a person. Adding SeventhBeacon to the KoS list btw. What the custard is that about?~ :) You don't know who I'm talking to? bugger, it ain't you either. I ain't talking to anyone but THE man, and you are THE man.

I was just wondering what the post was all about, since I don't think anyone actually complained about griefing at all. But then I remembered this was the internet. Carry on.

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If something makes me chuckle, I tend to hit the like button reflexively. It's a problem, I know. ;)

 

PvP game is going to have people getting killed a lot. Griefing really has to go above and beyond to destroy a person's day for it to qualify. Just getting killed over and over again in a game that is all about warfare, killing and conquest is not enough to constitute griefing.


"Darken the moon and conceal the stars; our Light will never be extinguished." - The Tome of the First Flame

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The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home. Join us @ http://crowfall.shivtr.com

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As some have mentioned already "griefing" is subjective. IMO exploiting game mechanics for anything outside of their intended use to hinder the progress of another player is the only griefing I feel the developer should acknowledge.

 

Allowing players to bottleneck and choke point low level players in starter zones is terrible design. Employees should have been reprimanded, not players banned. It's grief, but the fault of that developer. Warring guilds creating blockades of trade routes in full PVP zones is NOT griefing.

 

We have to remember Crowfall is just a game. People have their anonymity in tact, and don't have to follow moral standards set by society. It is the job of developer to protect all forms of moral value in their open world games. Give tools to keep both sides balanced. In most games low brow behavior is much more supported than civil behavior.

Edited by 8olphCaesar

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