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Griefing vs Emergent Gameplay - Where is the line?

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What is “Griefing?” Every mmo I've played everyone is always fond of talking about it, how much of a problem it is... and yet they all have a very different idea of what it actually means.

 

Its different in everyone's mind. Thats the problem with this human flaw we call "emotion", it just skews absolutely everything.


You're hilarious dude, you deserve awards for your degree of wit and intelligence, you truly do.

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I would say that we'll work out the terms of griefing in Crowfall as we alpha and beta test. Just like game play, griefing behavior will be emergent, as potential griefers try out various means of exploiting other players in this new environment. 

 

'twill be interesting to see it all unfold in all its turgid glory.


Click your profile name>Click Manage Ignore Prefs>Find "Add a new user to my list" at the bottom of the page>Type in a username>Check options>Save Changes>Silence is bliss.

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I don't even think griefing in the way you might find it in something like WoW will be relevant in Crowfall.  It's a game centered around PvP so killing people is expected and not an aberration.  Take something like planetside, you simply cannot complain people are killing you in a game of this nature and it's mechanics, being centered around PvP, make it pretty impossible to "grief" in that manner.  

 

If you've never played an MMO centered around PvP before perhaps a better analogy would be a PvP battleground in something like WoW or SWTOR where within the battleground instance you can't really "grief" anyone.  (*personally I dislike this analogy as Crowfall campaign are pretty different from a battleground.  It's simply for illustration purposes)

 

Now, that said there are some areas that perhaps are more harassment than griefing like doxing someone and calling their home or threatening to kill/harm them... but that's not really griefing.  

 

Perhaps team killing in factional rule sets would be the only sort of griefing I could see but most games will have some mechanic to limit this.  Take planetside again as an example.  If you teamkill people too much your weapons get disabled for a period of time.  If you continue it to an extreme you can get banned from the game. Obviously though, in a campaign rule set like the dregs even this isn't really griefing though.

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Griefing in a PvP centric open pvp rule set is pretty narrowly defined. Pretty much blatant violations of the CoC, knowingly utilizing bugs/glitches that allow you to perform feats never intended and out right hacking/cheating via any number of ways (think packet dropping, pixel sniffing, duping, teleporting, ect. ect). Those are the things when utilized to in effect "cheat' the game mechanics for advantage should get you banned. As should being a social neckbeard and continuously and egregiously violating the CoC..

 

Corpse camping someone over and over and over and over and over and over again, is not griefing. Hunting a choke point and roflstomping pubbies is not griefing. Infiltrating a clan, only to gain intel, sow dissension and fundamentally steal their bank, is not griefing. Some individual(s) telling you in open chat to "L2P or GTFO" after stomping you and/or your group over and over again (as long as it's not against the CoC), is not griefing.

 

Getting the idea? 

 

edit: Sunday drinking and typing.

Edited by tasorin

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Griefing is what noobs call making them unhappy and unable to do "X" in a game.  That can be not letting them level up, not letting them farm, not letting them leave their city, hunting them down while they are looking for rare spawns, not letting them use trainers in special locations.  Anything that someone can cry about being done to them to anyone who will listen is griefing.

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Will it be griefing when someone is trying to export and they keep getting robbed?


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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Embardo Areas aka Camping Park camping campers are laughing

 

Taking items to the safespot bank in War Z aka Infestation was the most funny (not) poorly made socks to do

 

1 little child running with his backpack full to enter the safespot and suddently 1 guy starts shooting, 2 guys, 5 guys, after a while we all realize there were like 10 crawling camping bastards all over the place waiting for that little dove.

 

A mini war was created, last man standing takes everything.

 

It's not griefing, its war boy!  :D no really, it can be fun (untill aimboters break the game).

Just don't attach yourself too much with the damm items.

 

Fight-Club-Quotes-3.gif

Edited by mazh

2whf87a.jpg

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I don't even think griefing in the way you might find it in something like WoW will be relevant in Crowfall.  It's a game centered around PvP so killing people is expected and not an aberration.  Take something like planetside, you simply cannot complain people are killing you in a game of this nature and it's mechanics, being centered around PvP, make it pretty impossible to "grief" in that manner.  

 

If you've never played an MMO centered around PvP before perhaps a better analogy would be a PvP battleground in something like WoW or SWTOR where within the battleground instance you can't really "grief" anyone.  (*personally I dislike this analogy as Crowfall campaign are pretty different from a battleground.  It's simply for illustration purposes)

 

Now, that said there are some areas that perhaps are more harassment than griefing like doxing someone and calling their home or threatening to kill/harm them... but that's not really griefing.  

 

Perhaps team killing in factional rule sets would be the only sort of griefing I could see but most games will have some mechanic to limit this.  Take planetside again as an example.  If you teamkill people too much your weapons get disabled for a period of time.  If you continue it to an extreme you can get banned from the game. Obviously though, in a campaign rule set like the dregs even this isn't really griefing though.

 

I agree, the only issue being is that we really cant compare CF to PS2 as the mechanics for PS2 inherently let you get the heck out of dodge by being able to deploy to a different base/map/sunderer when need be. Even if you are getting farmed at a specific base its easy to move along to another. It will interesting to see what mechanics there are for CF as that will determine where the "griefing" comes in at. It is true the game is PvP centric but I doubt the devs want people to be death camping players. Hopefully they thoughtabout this and have a plan to side step that issue.

 

Like most MMOs I am more than fine with getting murdered by players that are higher level than me(which wont be an issue in CF) or who out skill me (cause i suck  :D) but i rather not be camped.

Edited by wolfuse

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The problem with PvP server in PvE games (or at least ones with a central leveling mechanic) is that game requires you to normally do PvE content to advance to a competitive state.  Sure community can band together to rally against them, but that is other high-levels enjoying themselves still at your expense.

 

Crowfall is PvP-centric, and the campaigns are there strictly for PvP.  You do not rely on PvE content for leveling, and (supposedly) the power curve it not going to be as tremendous as you find in level-based games.

 

Because of this, Griefing is not a thing.  It is kill or be killed.  The only thing dev should do is make areas where players can enter freely or respawn and have a chance for survival.  But as I said, that is THE DEVS doing that with the aim of keeping people interested.  Otherwise, you do what you need to to support your side.  Camping the gates where your enemies come out is not griefing, its an old term called sieging.

 

"Unfair" is the battlecry of the dead or dying.

 

Edit: I will add one counter-point.  In a game, a wise person beats down the enemy in a way they will come back for more.  A child camps an enemy until they rage-quit and then cries when no one wants to play.

Edited by thestarsareright

Entropy is not what it used to be.  I am a servant of The Nothing.. The Hunger!

 

https://38.media.tumblr.com/c8b3da04c46297fe112a98ab12ad8e09/tumblr_n5l2imj4NF1qzm5g7o1_500.gif

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brb gotta find my copy of art of war

Only problem is Sun Tzu wants you to eliminate/demoralize the enemy.  In a game, you want to beat the enemy in such a way that they come back for more.


Entropy is not what it used to be.  I am a servant of The Nothing.. The Hunger!

 

https://38.media.tumblr.com/c8b3da04c46297fe112a98ab12ad8e09/tumblr_n5l2imj4NF1qzm5g7o1_500.gif

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They want their game to be similar to Eve Online in some ways, and in Eve you will loose your ship ( items in Crowfall case ) if you go to do stupid things. Just think about your gear as it is your "ship" and its fine.

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Oh, there will be griefing in this game and there will be cries of griefing when it's not warranted too. No amount of rules set up by a dev team is going to stop that. I prefer they keep the rules loose and vague and let the community deal with as much as possible.

 

But, there will always be those that are either bored, or no good at the game as it's intended, and will find a way to annoy other players or hinder their experience beyond what should be allowed. Hopefully we will see a number of these in beta and the dev team can code as much as possible out of the game. So, free license to be your worst in the beta, people.

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ACE has mooted both options, they want FF to stay on if they can do it.

 

  1. No FF: You can now physics block teammates to player them and they can't retaliate.
  2. Mechanical punishment: Piss someone off by physics blocking until they shoot you. /lol when they get whatever the punishment is.

I pick door number 3.  Leave FF on, and when someone starts attacking his teammates, the rest of the team proceeds to kill him and camp his spawn point over and over again until he leaves.  

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I pick door number 3.  Leave FF on, and when someone starts attacking his teammates, the rest of the team proceeds to kill him and camp his spawn point over and over again until he leaves.  

 

Leaves to do it in a different campaign on an alt. You aren't special, trolls will just go find a soft target. Meanwhile you have a bunch of forces corpse camping one guy, thats not how you win a war. This actually increases the value of their actions as far as the troll is concerned.


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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