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Pann

Combat Chat - Official discussion thread

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which always felt to me as one single move rather than three separates.

Exactly. It makes combat feel fluid and fun, but it's basically smash the same button 3-4 times for 1 long skill because you don't want to lose that Skill IV DPS. Being able to stop in the middle does nothing if it means you can't go back to it, it's the same as not being animation locked in other games and just being able to hit [dodge] [parry] w/e before the skill completes.

 

Creating branching skills is a HUGE undertaking for the animation devs, but it would be the best of both worlds. I'm hoping since they locked archetypes for budget reasons, as they get more funding this is the final vision they have. Maybe they have better ideas planned, who knows.


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As for combos, they way they explained it seemed similar to GW2 skill-chains. If they are the same (skill 1.a -> skill 1.b -> skill 1.c -> skill 1.a etc) then they are great for fluidity and animations and definitely make combat look cooler, but they don't add any tactical element. I think this is important to realize because they talked about combos replacing multiple abilities to reduce ability bloat. The problem is that not only do you reduce bloat, but also tactical depth. Say in WoW you have three damaging abilities of which you can use any which suits the heat of the battle, this is not true for the GW2 skill chains, which always felt to me as one single move rather than three separates.

 

Combos are great for combat feel and fluidity, but offer less tactical depth than if the abilities were separated. My concern is that they are counting on the combo system to also add tactical depth, but they need to be more than they explained for them to do that.

 

That's more GW2's fault than chained abilities' fault. Some of the combo "steps" in GW2 are a lot more significantly different than others. One of my favorites, for example, is the Thief's shortbow ability that fires an explosive arrow (can't remember what it's called -- we'll just call it BoomBoom Arrow for kicks here). It was a radius-based ground-targeted AoE damage dealing ability, but, how far away you targeted determined the arc on the arrow (the closer it was, the lower the arc, the farther away, the higher the arc and the longer the flight time). Then, after you fired the shot, that ability slot on your hot bar morphed into a detonation trigger, to detonate the arrow. If you let the arrow actually just sail all the way to its target and hit without detonating it in the air, it made a relatively small explosion but functioned as a Blast-type finisher for ability combos (and I think it applied an effect? Hobbled, maybe? I can't remember). BUT, if you detonated the arrow in the air, it exploded into 3 smaller bomby bits, spreading at a certain rate and striking things in a potentially much-larger radius. Depending on how far away your target was (and thusly how high the arrow went), you could either AoE damage a lot of things in a huge circle with less per-target damage, or you could wait 'til it got really close to the ground to detonate it, so the 3 bomby bits would barely separate much at all before they struck the ground -- smaller radius, but much more focused damage than just letting the arrow hit by itself.

 

That's three things you could do with just one simple ability, all utilizing the same-slot combo method:

 

1)Small AoE damage + effect + combo finisher

2)Small AoE high damage

3)Larger AoE moderate damage

 

And the size of the AoE and focused of the damage was completely modular. It's not like it just jumped from a 3m circle to a 9m circle, and back. It wasn't binary. You could detonate the arrow 4 feet off the ground instead of 3. Or 5, or 6, or 7, or 8.

 

Needless to say, I'm a huge fan of the whole multi-step-same-slot combination abilities when they're actually used to provide significant tactical options. But, some of the other ones in GW2 were 90% "Look at this cool triple-hit animation!" and 10% tactical significance. That's just a lesson in what not to do. :)

 

Also, I very much implore Team TALON (crows have talons, right? Basically? This is my submission for the combat strike team's codename) to keep in mind branching, so that everything isn't just a standalone combo (even though just that'd be prettycool). Maybe step III of any given ability flows well into step I of a different ability? Or maybe step II of any ability causes a state that allows for step I of other abilities to be skipped? Something like that. You don't want it to become "make it all the way to step III, or bust!". I'm sure you know that, because you had enough sense to cenceptualize this game in the first place, so... BUT, the topic said to discuss combat, so that's what we're doing. Just in case it's useful, :)

 

(T_T I can't watch the video 'til later. No access to Youtube...)

 

EDIT: The only other thing I'll add is... SOMEtimes, it might be prudent to wish to simply make a stage I attack again, instead of a stage II attack, depending on the differences in effect/attack speed/etc. of each stage of the combo. I don't really know how that would be handled, though, without separate hotbar buttons, which... BLOOOAAAAT...

Edited by Lephys

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-anip-

 

That example has indeed excellent tactical depth, it has multiple uses and there is skill and player choice involved.

 

Like you said most of the GW2 chains offer no choice and no multipurpose. 

 

If the combat team can enrich the combos, then I think they can indeed be properly used to avoid ability bloat while keeping the tactical options the same.

Enriching could be:

- multi-use

- requires player skill to use effectively

- involves player choice

- increasing risk as the combo advances

- etc

 

A good example of a melee combo I think is where the combo steps have increasing animation times and increasing body exposure, but also more damage/effectivity. If the player then feels that during the combo he exposes themself too much and leaves themself open to attack, he can break and use a defensive manoeuvre instead. This is an example that involves risk and choice. 

 

Combos that don't offer this kind of depth cannot be used to trim ability bloat. The majority of the GW2 chains fall in this catagory, but GW2 doesn't use chains to reduce ability bloat. The best way (on our part) to ensure this is to offer detailed reports on each of the combos during the testing phases.

Edited by Kalsomir

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I definitely prefer action combos rather than 20+ ability buttons on bars.  But, if it's just a single linear build.... it can get a little boring.

 

I fully support branching, but make the choices a bit different.  For example, say I mapped Q, E, R, X to combo chain slots that had risk vs reward meaning behind them:

 

Q = defensive ability (e.g. block)

E = offensive ability (e.g. increased attack... like Onslaught II)

R = cc ability (e.g. stun, trip, knockdown, etc...)

X = escape ability (e.g. jump back)

 

Not all combos may have these options, but for those that do, we have a choice on where to go next based on the combat situation.  You can still have increased power additive to the ability path if you stay on it, or it reverts to Onslaught I if you chose to go with a non-offensive ability.

 

This is just an example of a possible scenario and perhaps we're getting closer to Black Desert combat style:

 

maxresdefault.jpg


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Pann, Tyrant, etc

 

i will pay like $10 for an option to be unbanned ala Something Awful

 

make it happen

 

Now may be the perfect time to point out an interesting little factoid, just FYI: My favorite word is "believe". Gordon's is "no". LOL


Valerie "Pann" Massey, Director of Community
 

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Behind the scenes: I was running a high fever when we filmed this and was really distracted by the puppies playing outside the window behind Blair. 

Puppies you say? Don't bring those puppies in or else we will never see a finished crowfall product ^^

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This is fantastic! Thanks for the update I am really excited to see how the abilities look and that bad ass feeling of getting off my 3rd  combo and killing my enemies ^^.

 

One question I have is will CC attacks be hopefully the first ability in combos? or will there be non combo abilities as well?


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Varius - Veteran Member of LG

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My Question: What you think about re-use timers on skills? Will it be a traditional hard cap (say every 4,5 minutes you may press this button) or will it be a soft cap like in Black Desert where you can press the button but it will be less effective or cost more (would prefer cost more (high risk high reward))?

 

My Thoughts: Just make the caining like in fighting games! Due to may (recently) high playtime in MK10 I would really see that fit: you can press a secence of buttons but will always be able to cut it of. Depending on which buttons you press (ex: first press / last press) the result will be different. A short little example: you have 3 skills, 1 is your filler, 2 your offence, 3 your defence. 111 Is a normal left slash,right slash,thrust. But when you know press 112 your character will make a destructive (although not practical) spinning attack in the end of the combo dealin massive damage but locke in animation. When you know press 113 instead your original thrust will become a push with the pummel, knocking your opponent away (or what not). What you thin about this?

 

Regarding nameplates.. Thomas, why don't you just show them when players are being aimed at?

Then you could see them from far away and/or just spin in circles to spot somebody and/or spot somebody hiding in like a bush and when it only shows your target when close you can make it in-combat anyway

 

Tullyyyyyy & Blair !!!!!!  :wub:

Not creepy not at all  :ph34r:

 

One question does pop into my head that is straight logistics.  I've played some games where the different steps of a chained set of skills required that each step have its own button on the hotbar.  For example I'd need to slot Onslaught I on my hotbar, Onslaught II on my hotbar and Onslaught III and then they'd become available to use when the prerequisites are met.  Other games have had the upper skill in a chain simply replace the existing lower skill button so it's the same slot on the hotbar regardless of what level I'm at in the chain.  Which approach is CF taking?  If the aim is to avoid hotbar bloat the latter may be more useful.

They said (pretty direct) that you will press on button and then will be able to press a button again and then you a skill on assinged to your interface before, for a short period of time though.

Edited by IamMe

 

I AM ME!
I love you all.

 

 

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Two more thoughts, regarding ability chaining:

 

1) An ability that simply serves as a prerequisite for another ability -- think counter-attack. If one ability is simply Block, then successfully "hitting" with a block (blocking a strike) could allow you to, say, follow up with your Onslaught II or III, instead of just blocking, then starting a fresh ability chain.

2) A secondary resource in the "background." Think casters on this one (just for example). Imagine you have an elementalist, who uses the four elements. So, you cast an earth spell, and you build up 1 Earth Rune. You cast a fire spell, and you build up 1 Fire rune. Etc. Then, when you have 3 of them, depending on the combination, one of your abilities "mutates" into a different version. Maybe it'd be something useful but simple, already (so you could actually use it before building up 3 Rune charges). But, that could be pretty interesting. Or maybe your Firestrike I builds up a different amount of fire charge than Firestrike II, etc. Then, an ability can consume a certain amount of Fire charges or something like that.

 

Just, multi-layered chains and combos, really. Just brainstorming. 8P


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Really enjoyed talk about mechanics like combat.

 

I was a little unnerved by the comments that everything combat has pretty much been done in other games.... and essentially emulating for the sake of risk mitigation is a goal, and what other games have done is a guiding star.

 

No.

 

A different take on bland, dried up MMOs is why people are backing this project, and combat is at the heart of that.

 

Go for the innovation.  It's all over every other aspect of this title.

 

Godspeed Crowfall.  Cannot wait to start testing what you have brewing.

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Can we get more Tully in videos please. K thanks.

 

:ph34r:

 

 

I definitely prefer action combos rather than 20+ ability buttons on bars.  But, if it's just a single linear build.... it can get a little boring.

 

I fully support branching, but make the choices a bit different.  

 

 

 

Vindictus and Blade and Soul also had some interesting takes on combos. And at least with the way Vindictus does the keybinding, you can switch combos around pretty easily and not be stuck in the "this key does these 4 skills every time" thing (that reminds me of Aion actually). Of course you then run into the problem of potentially too many different keybind combos to memorize which is almost as bad as the ability bar bloat.

Edited by Leiloni

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Pause,

 

I dont know if we discussed this further in the video but, what what Crowd Control? In this combat system, how many second interval do I have between say "onslaught 1 and 2" and how will say.... A Massive Guild v Guild War affect it?

 

Because if we have prolonged CC within the game, combo combat suffers dramatically because getting to say... Onslaught 3-4 is virtually impossible, and if you did manage it (especially as a Melee like a knight) I'd hope it be very powerful to make it worth while.


You're hilarious dude, you deserve awards for your degree of wit and intelligence, you truly do.

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Pause,

 

I dont know if we discussed this further in the video but, what what Crowd Control? In this combat system, how many second interval do I have between say "onslaught 1 and 2" and how will say.... A Massive Guild v Guild War affect it?

 

Because if we have prolonged CC within the game, combo combat suffers dramatically because getting to say... Onslaught 3-4 is virtually impossible, and if you did manage it (especially as a Melee like a knight) I'd hope it be very powerful to make it worth while.

 

Well you don't necessarily have to, nor want to, hit the first two parts in the chain every time. If you have a moving target, or have to move yourself, you might just hit Onslaught 1 and 2 at nothing (just spam them really quickly) and then the big hitters, 3 and 4 when you can reach your target. You can do this in Vindictus pretty easily.

Edited by Leiloni

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Tully forgot to ask the really important questions:

 

 
  • What is your favorite word?
  • What is your least favorite word?
  • What turns you on?
  • What turns you off?
  • What sound or noise do you love?
  • What sound or noise do you hate?
  • What is your favorite curse word?
  • What profession other than your own would you like to attempt?
  • What profession would you not like to do?
  • If heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates?

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But that

 

Well you don't necessarily have to, nor want to, hit the first two parts in the chain every time. If you have a moving target, or have to move yourself, you might just hit Onslaught 1 and 2 at nothing (just spam them really quickly) and then the big hitters, 3 and 4 when you can reach your target. You can do this in Vindictus pretty easily.

 

Depends on the cooldown interval. If they made it as you said people would QQ extremely hard because say I'm a Stalker class & I do as you say and I'm on Whispering Forest Combo 3 Last hit/ Whispering Forest Combo 4 and I see the Knight roaming around.

 

I hit him with the last hit, does major damage. He doesnt know where I am because of nameplates not showing up until I'm really close so he cant throw up his shield in my direction, meanwhile I take the opportunity to get combo 4 of and since I'm crit based he's at least down to 20% health or dead by the time he sees me. Doesn't like a good start.


You're hilarious dude, you deserve awards for your degree of wit and intelligence, you truly do.

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Now that the Combat Strike Team has had some time to work, we can talk about what they have been building. 

 

FULL NEWS ARTICLE

 

Will there be a possibility for combos with multiple requisite abilities? Using the Onslaught as an example, if you use Shield Slam before Onslaught I, Onslaught II will instead be Shield Spin.

 

That'd have a unique opportunity for further branching combat, imo.

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