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Combat Chat - Official discussion thread

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Really enjoyed talk about mechanics like combat.

 

I was a little unnerved by the comments that everything combat has pretty much been done in other games.... and essentially emulating for the sake of risk mitigation is a goal, and what other games have done is a guiding star.

 

No.

 

A different take on bland, dried up MMOs is why people are backing this project, and combat is at the heart of that.

 

Go for the innovation.  It's all over every other aspect of this title.

 

Godspeed Crowfall.  Cannot wait to start testing what you have brewing.

 

I couldn't agree more. Copying combat mechanics from games that have failed to serve the niche PvP community shouldn't be emulated. Tera, Wildstar, and DC Online are not games that many of us would play. So why borrow any unique mechanics from them? I'm sure the combat system is going to go through lots of iterations, and nothing is set in stone. It would just be nice to see some original mechanics instead of theory-crafting which ideas to copy from other games.


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Many thanks for finally sharing this with us, I can't wait until we get to read and watch more about combat!

 

I am glad you are taking it so seriously, it will be a key part of the game :)

 

 

I'm really loving the path you're taking with limited slots, more powers getting available through combo chains, this sounds awesome!

 

You will have to commit to a particular chain of abilities in order to use a particular finisher for either it's unique effect, high damage, etc... which means people will be able to see it coming and will have to react.

 

 

I am really glad to hear you're getting rid of these telegraphs, aside for very specific abilities!

 

 

Please keep these combat news and videos coming, pretty please  :D


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Just throwing out a thought here. An understanding of required secondary powers can be an excellent tool for figuring out secondary or alternative uses of abilities. Confessor is casting a giant fireball? Okay, but where does that energy come from? Maybe he has to use a source of fire, and casting the spell removes that fire from its current location, which would be good for putting out fires on your own group's stuff. Frostweaver needs to freeze something? She does it by pulling heat out of the object and absorbing it into her own body, staving off the effects of winter cold.

 

You can have a LOT of interesting effects from a limited number of abilities. What about variations on the ability if you hold down the key or rapidly press it? IMHO a small set of abilities with a wide variety of contextual effects would be amazing. Also, I would prefer to keep my fingers on the WASD keys as much as possible and not have to reach over to hit the 9 key all the time. That's pretty annoying for action combat.

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Really enjoyed this piece, please keep doing more. Combat is my #1 concern. I'm just going to react to every part of the video.

 

  • Game will be more action based
    • This is my definite preference
  • Combos system
    • Combos concern me because I feel strongly that certain abilities that are meant as emergency or immediate reactions to opponent behavior play and feel best when they happen immediately. Things like interrupts, defensive cooldowns that are meant to be used when near death. However, combos could also be really fun too. I am also worried that players will easily avoid the final parts of combos if the game is too sluggish. DCUO benefited from melee attacks moving the player towards the enemy automatically.The timing will be extremely important to get right so that combo finishers feel like they can be landed, but not all powerful. My experience in DCUO was overall positive, but the combos weren't all that important to the design in my opinion. So, the early integration in Crowfall with archetype powers sounds promising. Lastly, DCUO did an incredible job with time windows for input, making chaining combos together not prone to minor errors in timing, also with freedom to exit out of combos.
  • Ability Bloat
    • I am mostly concerned about the ways in which ability bloat will be handled. The worst thing is to have 2 hotbar modes with some exceptions. Elder Scrolls was a nightmare for me, I hated the weapon swap. To add an additional input to reach most of my skills is extremely disappointing, and every class was affected by this mechanic. WoW never had this problem because the modes were part of the gameplay. I am referencing warriors, rogues and druids. For the most part, warrior stance dancing wasn't needed that often, and was a specific choice to have access to a particular skill or change the passive bonuses. Stealth gameplay worked because it made logical sense and players didn't need to dance with those hotbar modes. I suppose as long as the modes make sense for an archetype, and stance switching is minimized, it can work, but I would rather avoid it all together. Combos are a fair idea, but watching Skyforge gameplay, I feel that those combos were forced specifically to avoid ability bloat rather than only creating combos that enhance gameplay. Please consider what skills make sense in combos and which ones won't. I am hoping for somewhere around 20-24 skills on a bar, but it really depends. As long as it isn't something crazy low like 10 or less I will survive.
  • Mass
    • Can't wait to see this. I hope there are lots of skills that deal with mass. I'd even love to see skills that add weight and slow down players and generally can make large mass a weakness sometimes. Maybe mass should be tied into how much a player can carry too? Should heavily armored characters have more mass? I'm excited to see how much can be done with this.

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Perhaps something like "Welcome to Crowfall Combat Chat, where we chat about Crowfall's combat system" might sound smoother?

Those flashcards just made it all the more professional here.

You could have a third person behind Blixtev and offscreen present the questions on a flipchart, to ease Tully's stagefright without the audience seeing the cards.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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I couldn't agree more. Copying combat mechanics from games that have failed to serve the niche PvP community shouldn't be emulated. Tera, Wildstar, and DC Online are not games that many of us would play. So why borrow any unique mechanics from them? I'm sure the combat system is going to go through lots of iterations, and nothing is set in stone. It would just be nice to see some original mechanics instead of theory-crafting which ideas to copy from other games.

 

Ah, this is where you're wrong though, because many of us have played them.  "Action combat" is what entices us to play these types of MMOs... to distance ourselves from tab-target combat rails.

 

...

I am mostly concerned about the ways in which ability bloat will be handled. The worst thing is to have 2 hotbar modes with some exceptions. Elder Scrolls was a nightmare for me, I hated the weapon swap. To add an additional input to reach most of my skills is extremely disappointing, and every class was affected by this mechanic. 

 

I like the weapon slot mechanic and perhaps it comes down to how I have my keybinds.  Anyone who plays alts efficiently will know how to set their keybinds so they work across the various classes without having to remember what key does what.  

 

ESO (and other MMOs) weren't perfect by any means, but they were 100x better than tab-targeting WoW.  We've all graduated way beyond combat rail systems and want the freedom and skill that action combat provides.  Every action combat MMO has attempted to get action combat right.  They're not going to please everyone, but they are at least making an effort to break the WoW mold, which deserves credit in that regard.

 

Weapon swap should allow players to easily swap between a melee and a ranged weapon... each with a similar mechanic (offense, defense, cc, escape), although executed differently and with different ability names of course.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Ah, this is where you're wrong though, because many of us have played them.  "Action combat" is what entices us to play these types of MMOs... to distance ourselves from tab-target combat rails.

 

 

I like the weapon slot mechanic and perhaps it comes down to how I have my keybinds.  Anyone who plays alts efficiently will know how to set their keybinds so they work across the various classes without having to remember what key does what.  

 

ESO (and other MMOs) weren't perfect by any means, but they were 100x better than tab-targeting WoW.  We've all graduated way beyond combat rail systems and want the freedom and skill that action combat provides.  Every action combat MMO has attempted to get action combat right.  They're not going to please everyone, but they are at least making an effort to break the WoW mold, which deserves credit in that regard.

 

Weapon swap should allow players to easily swap between a melee and a ranged weapon... each with a similar mechanic (offense, defense, cc, escape), although executed differently and with different ability names of course.

Easily yes, but not too quickly. Dropping the readied weapon or shield on the ground should cut the time to swap in half.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Easily yes, but not too quickly. Dropping the readied weapon or shield on the ground should cut the time to swap in half.

 

At least we don't have to open up our inventory and character screen and manually swap out weapons.  This was the worst part of playing a sorc in GW2.


> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Depends on the cooldown interval. If they made it as you said people would QQ extremely hard because say I'm a Stalker class & I do as you say and I'm on Whispering Forest Combo 3 Last hit/ Whispering Forest Combo 4 and I see the Knight roaming around.

 

 

 

Oh no I didn't mean it that way. I mean that you'll still rapidly be hitting your combos back to back, but say the target is a few feet away, or maybe you have to turn a bit to the side or whatever. Instead of waiting until your target is in attack range to start your chain and risking that they get a chance to run away before you get off your biggest move, start your chain as your making your way into attack range (but still close enough so that the forward swing animation of each attack takes you into perfect range by the 3rd or 4th hit, without any abnormal delay between skills) so that by the time you get to that 3rd or 4th hit, you can actually hit them. No wasting your time on small hits while your target continually kites away, or uses some CC, or whatever.

Edited by Leiloni

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Perhaps something like "Welcome to Crowfall Combat Chat, where we chat about Crowfall's combat system" might sound smoother?

You could have a third person behind Blixtev and offscreen present the questions on a flipchart, to ease Tully's stagefright without the audience seeing the cards.

 

Haha no, you need to watch Inside the Actor's Studio. It's a tv show, I'm not sure if it's still on. But the entire video, including the index cards, will make so much more sense after you do. 

 

 

I like the weapon slot mechanic and perhaps it comes down to how I have my keybinds.  Anyone who plays alts efficiently will know how to set their keybinds so they work across the various classes without having to remember what key does what.  

 

 

 

While this is definitely true, it doesn't really make weapon swapping any less annoying. The act of swapping takes time, but more than that I just want to see all my skills on my UI at the same time. And one problem that was ESO specific was if you had toggleable abilities like pets or that crit aura thing, they only worked when the skillbar they were slotted on was active. So if you swapped, they turned off - unless you wanted to waste a slot by putting them on both bars. Beyond that, I really don't see any need for weapon swapping mid combat. Classes can be built around one weapon and still be great. You don't need to be able to do everything all the time and they've already said they don't want that in Crowfall. People will specialize and they will be weak in certain areas - that's why you have friends and teammates.

Edited by Leiloni

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Really enjoyed talk about mechanics like combat.

 

I was a little unnerved by the comments that everything combat has pretty much been done in other games.... and essentially emulating for the sake of risk mitigation is a goal, and what other games have done is a guiding star.

 

No.

 

A different take on bland, dried up MMOs is why people are backing this project, and combat is at the heart of that.

 

Go for the innovation.  It's all over every other aspect of this title.

 

Godspeed Crowfall.  Cannot wait to start testing what you have brewing.

 

I have seen many teams in my time strike out for something completely new and staying away from known models (it was much easier back in the day when less stuff had been tried and budgets were smaller). Usually what ended up happening is what I like to call "Wander in the desert for 40 years and end up on the scrapheap of MMO's who never shipped" syndrome. It is not a pleasant thing to watch. It has happened to many, many projects.

 

Guiding Star doesn't mean wholesale copy a game down to the last bit. There will be mechanics that are new and fresh, physics alone is already fun in ways we can't predict. I saw a knight jump today, use his block midair and because his mass was increased by his block he fell faster. It was very subtle and took a second for me to realize it, but I was like holy crap that is cool. This is going to lead to even more aspects we haven't realized yet. 

 

Ignoring known models and developer experience is not a path to success, especially when you have people who have funded you. If you think our goal is crank out a bland combat system, well, you haven't been paying attention. 

 

 

 


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Hah! Loved the humor and the outtakes. Those are always fun.

 

I like the idea of combat chains, as long as my eyes don't have to be glued to hotbars, and it seems to address just that in the questions too, so that's fantastic! Situational awareness is easier when you can practice without having to keep an eye on lots of UI information that can pull you out of the game experience. Looking forward to seeing these in action!


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The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home. Join us @ http://crowfall.shivtr.com

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I have seen many teams in my time strike out for something completely new and staying away from known models (it was much easier back in the day when less stuff had been tried and budgets were smaller). Usually what ended up happening is what I like to call "Wander in the desert for 40 years and end up on the scrapheap of MMO's who never shipped" syndrome. It is not a pleasant thing to watch. It has happened to many, many projects.

 

Guiding Star doesn't mean wholesale copy a game down to the last bit. There will be mechanics that are new and fresh, physics alone is already fun in ways we can't predict. I saw a knight jump today, use his block midair and because his mass was increased by his block he fell faster. It was very subtle and took a second for me to realize it, but I was like holy crap that is cool. This is going to lead to even more aspects we haven't realized yet. 

 

Ignoring known models and developer experience is not a path to success, especially when you have people who have funded you. If you think our goal is crank out a bland combat system, well, you haven't been paying attention. 

 

 

 

Raising his mass in midair shouldn't really make the knight fall faster, because air friction wouldn't slow his fall much over a short distance anyway.

It would make him hit the ground or an opponent under his weapon point harder though.

 

Edit: TB stated that the knight multiplies his mass when he shield blocks (with magic). This would indeed make him fall noticeably faster.

The other effects of a huge density increase will also be awesome;

  • He will make a crater when he hits the ground.
  • He will do tremendous damage to an opponent under him (death from above?).
  • His armor (and skin) should become more damage resistant by a factor of the density increase.
Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Really enjoyed talk about mechanics like combat.

 

I was a little unnerved by the comments that everything combat has pretty much been done in other games.... and essentially emulating for the sake of risk mitigation is a goal, and what other games have done is a guiding star.

 

No.

 

A different take on bland, dried up MMOs is why people are backing this project, and combat is at the heart of that.

 

Go for the innovation.  It's all over every other aspect of this title.

 

Godspeed Crowfall.  Cannot wait to start testing what you have brewing.

 

 

Word for word, I agree with all of this. I have faith we can break, then suggest how to make better what you create for our combat system, but please don't do what is safe, please don't start with the goal of you are going to copy everyone else and make it slightly different or a little bit better. 

 

I too eagerly await testing.

Edited by Kleric

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There will be mechanics that are new and fresh, physics alone is already fun in ways we can't predict. I saw a knight jump today, use his block midair and because his mass was increased by his block he fell faster.

 

That doesn't physics...

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because his mass was increased by his block he fell faster.

 

So your physics engine doesn't believe Galileo either, eh?

 

Any other "physics" rules we should expect to behave completely differently from Earth normal?


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