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Scarcity and Obsolescence


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Most modern MMORPGs - heck, I'd go so far as to say most games in general - pay no attention to the importance of scarcity and obsolescence in crafting systems.

 

Star Wars Galaxies used these two things to great effect in its earlier days, though the implementation wasn't perfect.

 

Most people I talk to seem to land on one of two sides of the fence on this topic. Either they're a crafter and love scarcity, or they're a combatant and hate it. There seems to be very little middle ground there.

 

To put context around this, here's one way to do scarcity:

 

There is a finite amount of the resource required to make a particular item. The demand for that item far outpaces the supply of the resource needed to make it.

 

And here's a usage of obsolescence:

 

The resource required to repair an item no longer spawns. At all. The item becomes obsolete and eventually falls out of use as newer versions made with different resources become available.

 

Note: this is only one way to use these two concepts in crafting.

 

How do you feel about the idea of using scarcity and obsolescence in crafting systems?

Formerly Scin Karetyr, a native of Chilastra in Star Wars Galaxies

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Because of the built in bottleneck of resources already in place in the game I'm more for obsolescence as a way to keep things moving for crafters.

 

CF seems to be addressing this pretty thoroughly already IMO.

 

-- There's already loot rules in the plans for world rulesets that range from partial loot to full loot.  This means that a lot of gear will be looted in battle and there will be a consistent need for new gear.

 

-- Gear will take damage on death and decay during fighting.

 

-- Export rules are loose to strict and quite a few new campaigns will require new gear to be created as the previous campaign's gear won't automatically get exported.

 

-- Import rules are also loose to strict and again, will cause new gear to be crafted on the new campaigns.

 

I'm against scarcity as an automatic go-to bottleneck.  It's already a reality on the EK's in a major way due to export rules and the RNG.  Making resources scarce in the campaigns seems punishing rather than balancing.

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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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I'm assuming Campaigns will help with this. As you already know Campaigns will have the best resources, which could be two things. They could be simply high quality versions of base materials such as Iron. Or it could be unique resources that can only be found through campaigns. Could be both actually. With the varying rules such as time limit and loot rules, they can use these to control the rarity of materials and their value.

 

If a material exists that is only available through select campaigns it will create scarcity, even if it takes until some time after the campaign is over, the material will eventually dwindle in quantity. Even further, if the material is rare even in that campaign, it will increase it's value even further. Of course the material has to be worth the effort, otherwise most people won't bother with it.

 

The decay of items is another good point that Oridi brought up. All of them eventually have to break, and new ones will have to be made. How much abuse they take is unknown, I imagine strong materials will increase durability, but that's just a wild guess.

 

Overall I'm for scarcity if it's reasonable. I think low quality or even decent quality items shouldn't be too scarce. Common materials such as leather and wood shouldn't be hard to come by, nor should low quality iron. I expect to have to put some work into it to get these, but I also expect it be easier to do, and will produce a lower quality product. On the opposite end of the spectrum high quality versions of iron, wood or even unique resources should be harder to come by and I would expect them to produce high quality items.

 

The idea of scarce high quality resources does sound nice, there is a possible problem with it. Large guilds could end up getting a majority of it, due to their size or area of control. This could be considered a bad thing by some, however that by itself would create some interesting possibilities. If an opposing guild finds out about these resources, they may attempt to find it first or simply fight them over it. They could try to steal the source of the resource, kicking the other guild out, or try to rob them as their transporting the material.

 

This all will have to be balanced and tweaked though.

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Large guilds monopolizing a singular vein of a high-quality resource (that peters out over time) sounds just fine to me as emergent gameplay, even if my business is negatively affected by it. After all, I'd have the opportunity to find a small but rich vein of resources of my own, even if it's not the same one.

 

I agree though, balance will be an ongoing challenge for Crowfall, as it is with any complex system.

Formerly Scin Karetyr, a native of Chilastra in Star Wars Galaxies

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Balance is a much smaller problem in competitive games like CF. If there's only one vein of unobtainium on the map then that just means there'll be a lot more fighting at and near that vein, and that stronghold locations nearby will be more valuable and more highly contested.

Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Because of the built in bottleneck of resources already in place in the game I'm more for obsolescence as a way to keep things moving for crafters.

 

CF seems to be addressing this pretty thoroughly already IMO.

 

-- There's already loot rules in the plans for world rulesets that range from partial loot to full loot.  This means that a lot of gear will be looted in battle and there will be a consistent need for new gear.

 

-- Gear will take damage on death and decay during fighting.

 

-- Export rules are loose to strict and quite a few new campaigns will require new gear to be created as the previous campaign's gear won't automatically get exported.

 

-- Import rules are also loose to strict and again, will cause new gear to be crafted on the new campaigns.

 

I'm against scarcity as an automatic go-to bottleneck.  It's already a reality on the EK's in a major way due to export rules and the RNG.  Making resources scarce in the campaigns seems punishing rather than balancing.

 

Also, there will be repair... but every repair will reduce the durability of the item, so you can only repair just so many times.

 

Balance is a much smaller problem in competitive games like CF. If there's only one vein of unobtainium on the map then that just means there'll be a lot more fighting at and near that vein, and that stronghold locations nearby will be more valuable and more highly contested.

 

+1 You have to remember that CF is a PvP sandbox.  The balance is left up to the players.

> Suddenly, a Nyt appears in the discussion...

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Crowfall's system in crafting has been explained that resources are limited in each campaign... But you will have several characters and options to trade if you are scarce on materials.

 

The system involves having the resources limited for each campaign, but you have the ability to be in multiple campaigns at one campaign per character, if possibly more. These resources you acquire can be shared through your eternal world and other sources if need be.

 

The scarcity is perfect in the system, in the sense that the economy will always have a need for it, and it will always be circulating at an even rate.

 

With the limitations set, there will be a constant requirement for resources. With that requirement, there will be a circulation of materials as long as there are materials needed and provided. 

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Crowfall's system in crafting has been explained that resources are limited in each campaign... But you will have several characters and options to trade if you are scarce on materials.

 

The system involves having the resources limited for each campaign, but you have the ability to be in multiple campaigns at one campaign per character, if possibly more. These resources you acquire can be shared through your eternal world and other sources if need be.

 

The scarcity is perfect in the system, in the sense that the economy will always have a need for it, and it will always be circulating at an even rate.

 

With the limitations set, there will be a constant requirement for resources. With that requirement, there will be a circulation of materials as long as there are materials needed and provided. 

 

I'm not sure I am understanding you correctly here.

 

Crowfall's system in crafting has been explained that resources are limited in each campaign... The system involves having the resources limited for each campaign...

 

I don't think that there's been an announcement that they're actually limiting resources in the campaigns.  I know that they have limits on how much can be exported that are based on the world rulesets but I've not seen anything from the devs so far that says "we're limiting the amount of resources you can have actually in the campaign."

 

Can you point me to where the source for this is?

 

The scarcity is perfect in the system, in the sense that the economy will always have a need for it, and it will always be circulating at an even rate.

 

I think this is one of those ideas that sound great on paper but actually implementing it is another matter, and I'm not sure that CF will actually work this simply.  I think the devs are likely to toss out a few rulesets and see how they balance out.  I'm guesstimating it may take a few campaigns to figure out the right mix of export/import amounts.  Ultimately though the capability to have it balance out well enough for folks to play on both the campaigns and the EK's with the main stressor not being resources is possible.  I think the main stressor in the game should be the other players, not the resources.

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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I think we need a great deal more information about the crafting system  how we gather materials, how we craft in campaigns, how we export materials after campaigns, recipes, so much else!

 

x makes a crafter's list for a later, longer, post x

 

This is a very important topic going forward for all of us who plan to craft. 

Click your profile name>Click Manage Ignore Prefs>Find "Add a new user to my list" at the bottom of the page>Type in a username>Check options>Save Changes>Silence is bliss.

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I think in general we're going to need a lot more information about every game system in order to successfully play the game. Having the detailed docs for every game system is going to be very important to the players who plan to engage that system. Wanting more detailed info isn't at all unique to crafters.

 

Be patient. We'll get it when they are able to give it to us.

Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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