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Combat... 1 vs 1 or Zerg vs Zerg?

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A well organized zerg will always destroy a group of elite navy seal pvp'ers in mass combat. If find yourself outnumbered, you'll need to negotiate with other clans, seek peers and allies, seek safety within a larger nation/alliance, or hire your guild out as mercenaries. 


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

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If the food mechanics are any good, things will scale really well. 1v1 fights will happen over small supply routes, as well as small merchant caravans, group v group (say 5-20 men) fighting will happen during raids for major supply routes, and zerg vs zerg will happen when two armies meet. The more men you have, the greater a pain it will be to feed them, so smaller groups will be more mobile and more able to fight each other, while large groups will only meet for final confrontations when one group runs out of food and is forced to engage an all-or-nothing assault (lest they all starve and waste the entire group).


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A well organized zerg will always destroy a group of elite navy seal pvp'ers in mass combat. If find yourself outnumbered, you'll need to negotiate with other clans, seek peers and allies, seek safety within a larger nation/alliance, or hire your guild out as mercenaries. 

 

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inb4thenavysealcopypasta

 

A well organized zerg will always destroy a group of elite navy seal pvp'ers in mass combat. If find yourself outnumbered, you'll need to negotiate with other clans, seek peers and allies, seek safety within a larger nation/alliance, or hire your guild out as mercenaries. 

 

I would disagree with this statement for a few reasons. (organized zerg I'll call a bunch of pubs being led on TS by a commander of some sort)

 

1. The elite small group wouldn't engage in open field battle because they know the futility of the fight

2. The elite small group would use other tactics to siphon off numbers here and there and use the natural disadvantages of a zerg to weaken it

3. The existing mechanics make this possible: Gear Loss, Gear Deterioration, (hopefully no combat res), collision detection, friendly fire, ect

 

Take all of that and I'd take 15 guys against 100 and while I may get caught a time or two, I bet I could harrass and kill 40-50 people pretty easily without dying.  Add in some siege weapons that can do even more damage to players, I could probably catch their masses in bad positions and slaughter enough to make them want to choose a different mission for the night.

 

Now, a highly trained and coordinated group of 100 people (not a zerg) will always beat a highly coordinated and trained group of 15.  It's just simple probability.  Then the conversation becomes, what within campaigns determines that a group of 100 people are needed to find success.

Edited by valor

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-snip-

Why did you quote me? You obv want it...

 

 

What the custard did you just custard say about me, you little bugger? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the custard out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my custard words. You think you can get away with saying that poorly made socks to me over the Internet? Think again, custard. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re custard dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable bottom off the face of the continent, you little poorly made socks. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your custard tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will poorly made socks fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re custard dead, kiddo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

e: it's hilarious with the word filter.

 

Edited by primal

☆ We are in a positive posting drought, so just post. Be the change you want the forums to be. Go wild. Just follow your positive posting star. ☆
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It won't I reckon. Game of Thrones is an endless cycle of large houses fighting for the throne, so I assume it's the same here. Your "problem" is their goal. They want large scale battles against two or three rival factions by Winter. It is just the progression. 

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Why did you quote me? You obv want it...

 

 

What the custard did you just custard say about me, you little bugger? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the custard out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my custard words. You think you can get away with saying that poorly made socks to me over the Internet? Think again, custard. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re custard dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable bottom off the face of the continent, you little poorly made socks. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your custard tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will poorly made socks fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re custard dead, kiddo.

 

e: it's hilarious with the word filter.

 

Pretty good, I'll have to admit. I do know some people. ;)

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I would disagree with this statement for a few reasons. (organized zerg I'll call a bunch of pubs being led on TS by a commander of some sort)

 

1. The elite small group wouldn't engage in open field battle because they know the futility of the fight

2. The elite small group would use other tactics to siphon off numbers here and there and use the natural disadvantages of a zerg to weaken it

3. The existing mechanics make this possible: Gear Loss, Gear Deterioration, (hopefully no combat res), collision detection, friendly fire, ect

 

Take all of that and I'd take 15 guys against 100 and while I may get caught a time or two, I bet I could harrass and kill 40-50 people pretty easily without dying. Add in some siege weapons that can do even more damage to players, I could probably catch their masses in bad positions and slaughter enough to make them want to choose a different mission for the night.

 

Now, a highly trained and coordinated group of 100 people (not a zerg) will always beat a highly coordinated and trained group of 15. It's just simple probability. Then the conversation becomes, what within campaigns determines that a group of 100 people are needed to find success.

I'd say that in a 15 vs. 100 scenario, the win condition for the "15" is to get out alive with a few kills. The numbers disparity is far to great. Your best bet is to harass them and pick off a few stragglers, but you better have a comparable group of friendlies coming up to meet the enemy in pitched battle after you've disorganized them.

 

I'd define an organized zerg as a large body of players of varied quality and origins, led by a competent core of organizers and battle commanders. Basically, a cadre of leaders who know how to make the most out of their superior numbers, despite being unable to account for the quality of their troops. Look at what the Goons did in EVE if you need an example.

Edited by soulein

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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Just a thought:

 

If you're in a 15 v 100 scenario on a regular basis, you might want to fire your diplomat, Siege commander, or whoever is in charge of making sure you aren't in that situation in the first place.

 

The ideal of a 20 man guild against all odds is romantic, but you're not going to win a campaign with a 20 man guild alone. Ever.

 

If you're not leading or part of a larger coalition power bloc by winter, and you're expecting to own property that is in any way valuable to anyone, or win any conceivable campaign (yes, including bloodstone) by any stretch of the term "win" you wasted a lot of time.

 

Your best bet is to integrate your guilds playstyles and talents in to a force large enough to have a hope of winning.

 

Whether this makes you "part of the zerg" or not is up to you, but the fact remains, armies win wars. Independent highly trained commando teams do not win wars. They complete missions.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Just a thought:

 

If you're in a 15 v 100 scenario on a regular basis, you might want to fire your diplomat, Siege commander, or whoever is in charge of making sure you aren't in that situation in the first place.

 

The ideal of a 20 man guild against all odds is romantic, but you're not going to win a campaign with a 20 man guild alone. Ever.

 

If you're not leading or part of a larger coalition power bloc by winter, and you're expecting to own property that is in any way valuable to anyone, or win any conceivable campaign (yes, including bloodstone) by any stretch of the term "win" you wasted a lot of time.

 

Your best bet is to integrate your guilds playstyles and talents in to a force large enough to have a hope of winning.

 

Whether this makes you "part of the zerg" or not is up to you, but the fact remains, armies win wars. Independent highly trained commando teams do not win wars. They complete missions.

But my men are highly organized...


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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In my opinion splitting up zergs is insanely difficult. As long as it is a valid tactic to steamroll your enemies it is perfectly understandable that MMOs will be played that way. Mechanics like friendly fire or collision detection won't help much because they don't render outnumbering your opponents invalid, it makes positioning yourself only slightly more difficult. Of course, pickup groups will be destroyed because of these mechanics really fast but organized guilds will find a way to minimize the risks of banding together in a large pack soon enough.

 

Also, in my history as a PvP player I have heard so many heroic war tales of these so-called zerg breaker groups but frankly, they usually rely on very sophisticated group builds, wearing the best gear you can possibly get, what makes them able to deliver huge damage spikes that just can't be outhealed. No matter how you put it, zerg or no zerg, it's always about beating your enemies *mathematically*.

 

In addition, I believe that putting more objectives on the map will help is a common misconception. The ESO PvP is a good example why this won't work - or a bad one as a matter of speaking. The number of objectives is quite enough for the people playing on the map (18 keeps per faction, plus three resource camps each, plus the scrolls) but it could be way more or less, I think it does not matter. The strategic value of each point of interest is more or less the same because the only incentive for each player, guild or whathaveyou is simply to gain as much points as possible per time frame. The strategic decisions you make in a system like this comes down to one simple fact and that is how fast can I acquire the amount of objectives I am able to hold with my manpower. So the only valid tactic is to attack the keep that is the most convenient to you which usually is the one that is in the closest proximity to wherever you can spawn.

 

Throwing all your forces at one point of a map would be a bad strategy if you compare that situation to "real" medieval warfare. Let's say you are indeed the leader of a fantasy kingdom. Why would you ever do that if your opponents could take out your capital city in the meantime and end your reign forever? In a game you can always take it back in the same time as long as you outnumber your opponents again. I believe that for starters leaving everything you have acquired so far unguarded should be a huge risk. What will work in my opinion however are mechanics like the bloodstone rule set and the bane circle siege mechanic because these add the strategic depth that many games are lacking. I believe that what you need is a complex system of different *incentives* instead of different *objectives* on your PvP map.

 

That being said, I am pretty confident that Crowfall could deliver a system that has the potential to actually work compared to many if not every RvR system currently on the market. They are claiming that it's in fact a real time strategy game. As an MMO. While that is in theory true even for the ESO PvP the rules of RvR are usually very simple, not to say dumb. I am hoping that Crowfall delivers a challenging rule set that makes the strategic decision what to attack and what to defend much more difficult than in other games. I am actually hoping that over time we will get a "super" campaign with all these rules I have read so far combined with a more complex winning condition than "gather as many points as you can". Time will tell.


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But my men are highly organized...

Oh, well in that case disregard everything I said.

 

I mean I hadn't accounted for people being highly organized.

 

Silly me. Thanks for keeping it real Cirolle~


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GvG 100v100

 

It's a goddamn fireworks show, not a war:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=50&v=1MvopOBdZDI

 

 

It's time to drop the "zerg" mentality. Zerging? Mindless blobbing? nah.

 

An army? Squads moving around for objectives? yes.


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I think this game will be a lot more unorganized than people are envisoning.  Most people who play games generally don't have time to coordinate at night after a busy day at work, will hop on with a vague notion of an objective, and probably will team up into small randomized groups within whatever faction or guild they are a part of to get things done.  True large scale pvp events will be left to organized play, which accounts for a very small fraction of an MMO community.  That small fraction just happens to get a lot of media attention is all.

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GvG 100v100

 

It's a goddamn fireworks show, not a war:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=50&v=1MvopOBdZDI

 

 

It's time to drop the "zerg" mentality. Zerging? Mindless blobbing? nah.

 

An army? Squads moving around for objectives? yes.

Ask the Shadowbane players. We've been in battles on this scale and still managed to coordinate and organize effectively to great effect. We just need a combat system which supports large scale strategic organization, as opposed to point blank aoe madness.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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Don't you worry. Players will find a way to nut cup and ally to crush a Campaign. What you hope for is high drama and meta in order to keep the intrigue and ePeen wagon at full steam which will keep population levels up and facilitate populated Campaigns instead of ghost towns.

 

We have seen it before. You get a Zerg/alliance that doesn't completly suck, they run ruffshot all over the community and then finally get bored without any real resistance and then the zerg/alliance breaks down and the status quo is returned back to quasi balance. Occasionally when a zerg/alliance is on full punk mode, you will get a counter zerg/alliance that tries to set the prior on fire to break their strangle hold on the server.

 

See: DFO in early-mid EU

 

I think this game will be a lot more unorganized than people are envisoning.  Most people who play games generally don't have time to coordinate at night after a busy day at work, will hop on with a vague notion of an objective, and probably will team up into small randomized groups within whatever faction or guild they are a part of to get things done.  True large scale pvp events will be left to organized play, which accounts for a very small fraction of an MMO community.  That small fraction just happens to get a lot of media attention is all.

 

Um, just no. That maybe the case for some, but for those of us who have been members in the same gaming circles for decades now, won't face this scenario most nights. Who do you think most the developers look too when they want real testing and feedback, it sure isn't the casual sock puppet pubbies. Legacy Clans and organized groups get the attention because we usually take the time to be involved in the communities for the games we support. We maybe a smaller portion of the overall MMO community by sheer volumetrics, but our smaller base drives more actionable engagement than the pants on head re-re's or immersion monkey crowd ever can or will.

Edited by tasorin

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Ask the Shadowbane players. We've been in battles on this scale and still managed to coordinate and organize effectively to great effect. We just need a combat system which supports large scale strategic organization, as opposed to point blank aoe madness.

 

I told people to /stuck and /tar a lot though. I was a master tactician.

 

Then they removed /tar

 

Seriously though, less AoE and HoT stacking and more physics based projectiles and cones with friendly fire and i think we might be in the money.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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