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Coin of the realm - Official discussion thread

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I'm kind of concerned that everyone in the game just became a miner.

and then what happened?

 

Don't leave me hanging, it's not nice.

 

What happened after everyone became miners?


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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Maybe we have all been given these potentially big EKS, so we will be tempted to keep building, enlarging the upkeep to such an amount, that inflation will never happen.

 

"Yeah man, things are bad after we lost the last 3 campaigns. I had to take buy 6 months of vip and sell it just to pay my upkeep"

Funny that things work out that way ;)

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The system will be used as a way to extend power.  Large, well organized guilds or alliances will be able to grow wealth as they can set the price.  Wars will be fought over this and the campaign world may become secondary to the need to wage an economic war against your rivals.  I am looking forward to how this works out and who gains what kind of power out of it.  It is also interesting so see what value  "coins" will have.  Rarity of the ore they are made of put the value on coins, but the items they buy do not have a value but the resources it takes to make them.   Hard to get ore could be very pricy, as again only the strong will have those items.  Also as the game ages, do resources go away or does an older guild enjoy continued wealth?   I understand character items wear out so to speak, but eternal kingdom items do not.

 

Interesting indeed

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Keep them 1 denomination, say gold only or some lore specific name, and be done with it.

 

We don't need gold, silver, bronze, whatnot to make things 1g 25s 300br so we can still use bartering as a 'piecemeal mechanic' in trading.  

 

"How much for that Uber Sword?"

"That's 2g for the fine craftsmanship.."

"How about 1g and 32 chickens?'

"Done.."

 

Also, has any thought been on the potential third-party 'currency' sellers?  Is Crowfall going to be full of mining bots [albeit cash cows for pvp mind you] with chat spam such as '~~~ ATTN CROWFALL ORENS 1/2 OFF - BESTEST PRICE IN LAND, 100-10$US, BUY,BUY,BUY~~~'?

Edited by ictinike

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Keep them 1 denomination, say gold only or some lore specific name, and be done with it.

 

Also, has any thought been on the potential third-party 'currency' sellers?

 

Cognitive dissonance reigns supreme. Please understand that your recommendation and your question are at odds with each other. Establishment of mandated currencies, especially unitary currencies, is a tremendous boon to currency sellers. The more you guarantee that players will be trading in a specific exchange medium, the easier it is for farmers and sellers to focus their activities, drive up their profits, and bring more of their kind to the game. You're giving the farmers and sellers a hand-crafted market, full of participants who have had the incentive for RMT delivered to them on a platter.

 

So let me ask you: in that environment, do you think we're going to have bot spam?


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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People will barter if they have items to exchange.

People will trade in coins if they do not.

 

Put all the economic philosophy you want in it.  People can completely ignore the system by going into campaigns with no import rulesets.  Now those so-called empires and controls are mute.

 

Bartering is wasted time to those that want to play a PvP game.


Entropy is not what it used to be.  I am a servant of The Nothing.. The Hunger!

 

https://38.media.tumblr.com/c8b3da04c46297fe112a98ab12ad8e09/tumblr_n5l2imj4NF1qzm5g7o1_500.gif

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I don't think gold farmers are going to  be a serious concern in Crowfall. The amount you can farm in an EK will be trivial compared to what you can earn in the campaigns if playing actively (if there's any coin to be found in the EKs at all), but bots and dedicated farming characters will be nothing but loot pinatas in campaigns. Plus, you only get a decent export if your faction wins, and a faction weighed down with a bunch of gold farmers probably won't.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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I don't think gold farmers are going to  be a serious concern in Crowfall. The amount you can farm in an EK will be trivial compared to what you can earn in the campaigns if playing actively (if there's any coin to be found in the EKs at all), but bots and dedicated farming characters will be nothing but loot pinatas in campaigns. Plus, you only get a decent export if your faction wins, and a faction weighed down with a bunch of gold farmers probably won't.

 

Jihan is right.  There will be gold farmers... there always are, but the price of buying gold from them will be so high due to scarcity and difficulty of getting it out of campaigns that most people will just do it themselves.

Also, gold coins are really only valuable to people wanting to buy things for their EK, thus it will have little effect on campaigns regardless.

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So at this juncture I think it's instructive to observe the reality of farming in Eve. See, all of the arguments that suggest farming will be of little concern in Crowfall were also made about Eve, at various times. The popular thinking went like this: farmers won't be able to farm effectively because all of the good ore is in null sec, and that space is controlled by player alliances, so the farmers will only be able to farm in high sec which will be unprofitable.

 

Let's see what we've got here:

  • Human beings in control of game resources
  • Human beings wanting to collect resources to turn them into real money

It should already come as no surprise, whatsoever, that yes, in fact, many major alliances had or have real life contractual agreements with farming/RMT companies to grant those companies protected access to their ore fields in exchange for real money. Let me make sure you understand what I just said: it is routine for Eve alliances to sell farming rights for real money to gold farmers.

 

So now you're thinking, "Well, that can't happen in Crowfall, because campaigns aren't persistent and <blah blah blah>". It's just a different set of parameters. The ultimate reality will be the same: there will be campaigns of sufficient duration with organizations of sufficient size and power to control resource spigots for sufficient time that selling access rights to farming companies will be a very real and very profitable motivation. You may object that organizations in campaigns can't afford to give away resources that they'll need for winning or that the farmers can't get the resources back out of a campaign, and I say bologna. The protectors can sand bag to prolong a campaign. They can do this in loser-takes-40% campaigns. The farmers can sell to fellow faction members within long-running campaigns. They can find an endless number of numeric efficiencies that make this behavior profitable. When we're talking about real money and endless legions of farming company employees who work for subsistence, it is guaranteed that they will exert tremendous effort to find the loopholes that make it profitable, and it is guaranteed that they will find loopholes far faster than ArtCraft can plug them, because the balance of incentives favors them.

 

So if you want to make their job easier and more profitable by having mandated currencies, especially a unitary currency, just keep on going down this path. Yes, of course, they can always sell commodities and items. If they have to compete in an open barter economy, however, their proposition becomes much less easy to make profitable, quite likely to the point of impossibility. Their value proposition is not market smarts. Their value proposition is delivering sheer quantity of tedium in order to profit on the margin. If they have to manage a complex economic environment where any commodity can become devalued by their actions and replaced as an exchange medium (aka organic currency) at any time by any other commodity, their fundamental value proposition disappears.

 

Up to you.

 


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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Eve's chokepoints mean that huge swaths of nullspace can be effectively secured by just a few dozen players on gate duty, leaving all the space behind them almost completely safe for hundreds or thousands of macroers. I don't think we have any reason to suspect the same phenomenon will be observed on Crowfall maps which will be both much smaller and much less chokeable than Eve's map.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Eve's chokepoints mean that huge swaths of nullspace can be effectively secured by just a few dozen players on gate duty, leaving all the space behind them almost completely safe for hundreds or thousands of macroers. I don't think we have any reason to suspect the same phenomenon will be observed on Crowfall maps which will be both much smaller and much less chokeable than Eve's map.

 

Focusing on one detail of the scenario and dismissing it is missing the forest for the trees. They are incentivized to find the minute margins that will never, ever occur to you, and exploit them. If you think they can't find a way to farm the materials that turn into mandated currency, you're exercising willful naiveté.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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Jihan is right.  There will be gold farmers... there always are, but the price of buying gold from them will be so high due to scarcity and difficulty of getting it out of campaigns that most people will just do it themselves.

 

Also, gold coins are really only valuable to people wanting to buy things for their EK, thus it will have little effect on campaigns regardless.

You don't think there will be trading in campaigns?


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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So at this juncture I think it's instructive to observe the reality of farming in Eve. See, all of the arguments that suggest farming will be of little concern in Crowfall were also made about Eve, at various times. The popular thinking went like this: farmers won't be able to farm effectively because all of the good ore is in null sec, and that space is controlled by player alliances, so the farmers will only be able to farm in high sec which will be unprofitable.

 

Let's see what we've got here:

 

  • Human beings in control of game resources
  • Human beings wanting to collect resources to turn them into real money
It should already come as no surprise, whatsoever, that yes, in fact, many major alliances had or have real life contractual agreements with farming/RMT companies to grant those companies protected access to their ore fields in exchange for real money. Let me make sure you understand what I just said: it is routine for Eve alliances to sell farming rights for real money to gold farmers.

 

So now you're thinking, "Well, that can't happen in Crowfall, because campaigns aren't persistent and <blah blah blah>". It's just a different set of parameters. The ultimate reality will be the same: there will be campaigns of sufficient duration with organizations of sufficient size and power to control resource spigots for sufficient time that selling access rights to farming companies will be a very real and very profitable motivation. You may object that organizations in campaigns can't afford to give away resources that they'll need for winning or that the farmers can't get the resources back out of a campaign, and I say bologna. The protectors can sand bag to prolong a campaign. They can do this in loser-takes-40% campaigns. The farmers can sell to fellow faction members within long-running campaigns. They can find an endless number of numeric efficiencies that make this behavior profitable. When we're talking about real money and endless legions of farming company employees who work for subsistence, it is guaranteed that they will exert tremendous effort to find the loopholes that make it profitable, and it is guaranteed that they will find loopholes far faster than ArtCraft can plug them, because the balance of incentives favors them.

 

So if you want to make their job easier and more profitable by having mandated currencies, especially a unitary currency, just keep on going down this path. Yes, of course, they can always sell commodities and items. If they have to compete in an open barter economy, however, their proposition becomes much less easy to make profitable, quite likely to the point of impossibility. Their value proposition is not market smarts. Their value proposition is delivering sheer quantity of tedium in order to profit on the margin. If they have to manage a complex economic environment where any commodity can become devalued by their actions and replaced as an exchange medium (aka organic currency) at any time by any other commodity, their fundamental value proposition disappears.

 

Up to you.

An excellent post. People arguing usability and facilitation of an economy are perhaps not recognizing that the usability is a critical factor to gold farmers.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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So at this juncture I think it's instructive to observe the reality of farming in Eve. See, all of the arguments that suggest farming will be of little concern in Crowfall were also made about Eve, at various times. The popular thinking went like this: farmers won't be able to farm effectively because all of the good ore is in null sec, and that space is controlled by player alliances, so the farmers will only be able to farm in high sec which will be unprofitable.

 

Let's see what we've got here:

  • Human beings in control of game resources
  • Human beings wanting to collect resources to turn them into real money

It should already come as no surprise, whatsoever, that yes, in fact, many major alliances had or have real life contractual agreements with farming/RMT companies to grant those companies protected access to their ore fields in exchange for real money. Let me make sure you understand what I just said: it is routine for Eve alliances to sell farming rights for real money to gold farmers.

 

So now you're thinking, "Well, that can't happen in Crowfall, because campaigns aren't persistent and <blah blah blah>". It's just a different set of parameters. The ultimate reality will be the same: there will be campaigns of sufficient duration with organizations of sufficient size and power to control resource spigots for sufficient time that selling access rights to farming companies will be a very real and very profitable motivation. You may object that organizations in campaigns can't afford to give away resources that they'll need for winning or that the farmers can't get the resources back out of a campaign, and I say bologna. The protectors can sand bag to prolong a campaign. They can do this in loser-takes-40% campaigns. The farmers can sell to fellow faction members within long-running campaigns. They can find an endless number of numeric efficiencies that make this behavior profitable. When we're talking about real money and endless legions of farming company employees who work for subsistence, it is guaranteed that they will exert tremendous effort to find the loopholes that make it profitable, and it is guaranteed that they will find loopholes far faster than ArtCraft can plug them, because the balance of incentives favors them.

 

So if you want to make their job easier and more profitable by having mandated currencies, especially a unitary currency, just keep on going down this path. Yes, of course, they can always sell commodities and items. If they have to compete in an open barter economy, however, their proposition becomes much less easy to make profitable, quite likely to the point of impossibility. Their value proposition is not market smarts. Their value proposition is delivering sheer quantity of tedium in order to profit on the margin. If they have to manage a complex economic environment where any commodity can become devalued by their actions and replaced as an exchange medium (aka organic currency) at any time by any other commodity, their fundamental value proposition disappears.

 

Up to you.

 

To add to this, gold sellers don't need to win Campaigns. They can simply gather the resources or coins, and sell those to whomever else in the Campaign, winners or losers. Most of it will go up in a puff a smoke at the end; all except the dollars in the sellers' pockets.

Edited by motstandet

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Focusing on one detail of the scenario and dismissing it is missing the forest for the trees. They are incentivized to find the minute margins that will never, ever occur to you, and exploit them. If you think they can't find a way to farm the materials that turn into mandated currency, you're exercising willful naiveté.

 

You post a big long example of how Eve's system enables gold farmers and so Crowfall's will to. I posted a simple deconstruction of your argument explaining why Eve's example isn't relevant to Crowfall's situation. You then reply that.... your point is valid even though the example you offered to support your point has been dismissed. If your argument didn't need the supporting example then you shouldn't have gone to all the trouble of offering one.

 

If you want to make the argument that gold farmers, like life, will "find a way" regardless of the game design, then by your own premise there's no point doing anything at all to fight them. They could just as easily seek out and exploit minute margins in the stone, metal, and wood markets even absent a primary currency.

 

I maintain my stance that Crowfall campaigns will be too chaotic, dangerous, and unreliably profitable to make gold farming a serious issue.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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So at this juncture I think it's instructive to observe the reality of farming in Eve. See, all of the arguments that suggest farming will be of little concern in Crowfall were also made about Eve, at various times. The popular thinking went like this: farmers won't be able to farm effectively because all of the good ore is in null sec, and that space is controlled by player alliances, so the farmers will only be able to farm in high sec which will be unprofitable.

 

Let's see what we've got here:

  • Human beings in control of game resources
  • Human beings wanting to collect resources to turn them into real money
It should already come as no surprise, whatsoever, that yes, in fact, many major alliances had or have real life contractual agreements with farming/RMT companies to grant those companies protected access to their ore fields in exchange for real money. Let me make sure you understand what I just said: it is routine for Eve alliances to sell farming rights for real money to gold farmers.

 

So now you're thinking, "Well, that can't happen in Crowfall, because campaigns aren't persistent and <blah blah blah>". It's just a different set of parameters. The ultimate reality will be the same: there will be campaigns of sufficient duration with organizations of sufficient size and power to control resource spigots for sufficient time that selling access rights to farming companies will be a very real and very profitable motivation. You may object that organizations in campaigns can't afford to give away resources that they'll need for winning or that the farmers can't get the resources back out of a campaign, and I say bologna. The protectors can sand bag to prolong a campaign. They can do this in loser-takes-40% campaigns. The farmers can sell to fellow faction members within long-running campaigns. They can find an endless number of numeric efficiencies that make this behavior profitable. When we're talking about real money and endless legions of farming company employees who work for subsistence, it is guaranteed that they will exert tremendous effort to find the loopholes that make it profitable, and it is guaranteed that they will find loopholes far faster than ArtCraft can plug them, because the balance of incentives favors them.

 

So if you want to make their job easier and more profitable by having mandated currencies, especially a unitary currency, just keep on going down this path. Yes, of course, they can always sell commodities and items. If they have to compete in an open barter economy, however, their proposition becomes much less easy to make profitable, quite likely to the point of impossibility. Their value proposition is not market smarts. Their value proposition is delivering sheer quantity of tedium in order to profit on the margin. If they have to manage a complex economic environment where any commodity can become devalued by their actions and replaced as an exchange medium (aka organic currency) at any time by any other commodity, their fundamental value proposition disappears.

 

Up to you.

What can you buy for is in EvE vs what can you buy for coins in CF?


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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You post a big long example of how Eve's system enables gold farmers and so Crowfall's will to. I posted a simple deconstruction of your argument explaining why Eve's example isn't relevant to Crowfall's situation. You then reply that.... your point is valid even though the example you offered to support your point has been dismissed. If your argument didn't need the supporting example then you shouldn't have gone to all the trouble of offering one.

 

If you want to make the argument that gold farmers, like life, will "find a way" regardless of the game design, then by your own premise there's no point doing anything at all to fight them. They could just as easily seek out and exploit minute margins in the stone, metal, and wood markets even absent a primary currency.

 

I maintain my stance that Crowfall campaigns will be too chaotic, dangerous, and unreliably profitable to make gold farming a serious issue.

 

I didn't accept your dismissal. I simply acknowledged that you made it. I disagree that there is any fundamental game design that we know of so far in Crowfall that will prevent domination of specific resource depots. They may reveal stuff later, but at this juncture, we have no reason to suspect one organization won't be capable of controlling a particular gold mine for the entirety of a campaign.

 

Entirely beyond that, however, my response to you pointed out that, while you may think a particular vector for farming is not possible in Crowfall, the farmers will find vectors that will never enter your imagination. So shooting down one vector and saying "Problem solved!" does not solve the problem, due to the multitude of other vectors you haven't even considered.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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What can you buy for is in EvE vs what can you buy for coins in CF?

 

What ArtCraft establishes, by imposing even a partially-mandated currency, is an expectation among players that that is the medium of exchange. Humanly speaking, they create the standard exchange medium. This occurs for many reasons, with the primary reason being that most people simply don't understand what currency represents, and they literally think that all things are valued in units of that currency, as if there's some magical accountant in the sky. The end result is that a tremendous amount of the game's trade will occur denominated in that currency.

 

With that established, the farmers now have a potential market population that includes nearly the entirety of the game's population. People will be incentivized to purchase that currency for real money because they can be confident it will be convertible to whatever items they want to purchase in-game.

 

So to answer your question: you can buy effectively anything for coins in Crowfall, just like you can buy effectively anything for ISK in Eve.

Edited by hamopeche

I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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