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Coin of the realm - Official discussion thread

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What ArtCraft establishes, by imposing even a partially-mandated currency, is an expectation among players that that is the medium of exchange. Humanly speaking, they create the standard exchange medium. This occurs for many reasons, with the primary reason being that most people simply don't understand what currency represents, and they literally think that all things are valued in units of that currency, as if there's some magical accountant in the sky. The end result is that a tremendous amount of the game's trade will occur denominated in that currency.

 

With that established, the farmers now have a potential market population that includes nearly the entirety of the game's population. People will be incentivized to purchase that currency for real money because they can be confident it will be convertible to whatever items they want to purchase in-game.

 

So to answer your question: you can buy effectively anything for coins in Crowfall, just like you can buy effectively anything for ISK in Eve.

Do you buy things from NPCs in Eve? Edited by Cirolle

 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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I don't really have a preference over a predetermined currency vs. bartering. However with the recent ACE statement about 3rd party commercial services and this announcement of coin currency + coins in monsters + coin exchangeable in Cash Shop, I'm a bit concerned about the risk for gold selling services.

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Do you buy things from NPCs in Eve?

 

When I played, yes I did, though most of what I purchased was listed on the market by other players. Every one of the purchases I made on the market paid tax, in game-mandated currency, to the game. So in that regard, everything I bought on the market was at least partially bought from "NPCs".


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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I don't really have a preference over a predetermined currency vs. bartering. However with the recent ACE statement about 3rd party commercial services and this announcement of coin currency + coins in monsters + coin exchangeable in Cash Shop, I'm a bit concerned about the risk for gold selling services.

 

Yes, a valid point, m8. I thought more practical about it like melting valuable ores to coins
for weight issues in campaigns, and it's easier to bring back to EK for instance.

MQfHl7c.png

Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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When I played, yes I did, though most of what I purchased was listed on the market by other players. Every one of the purchases I made on the market paid tax, in game-mandated currency, to the game. So in that regard, everything I bought on the market was at least partially bought from "NPCs".

OK.

 

Lets go.

 

I don't think you understand everything.

 

The effect of having the campaigns and the EKS decided up is huge.

Add to that, that the campaigns are not permanent.

 

The way you get resources, with actually having to play the game to get to the real resources (pois) makes a difference also.

 

I would like you to give me an example of someone buying power with gold and who they are buying this from.


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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I don't really have a preference over a predetermined currency vs. bartering. However with the recent ACE statement about 3rd party commercial services and this announcement of coin currency + coins in monsters + coin exchangeable in Cash Shop, I'm a bit concerned about the risk for gold selling services.

 

Same as you I don't have a preference as well, but the gold selling services will be real. If they want to control the supply that's fine but I haven't heard a statement about the max amount of currency that will ever be created so that it doesn't get devalued with time. I've tweeted this to them before because this game seems prime for it, but since they seem interested in using an in-game coin to pay for things in the game as a well as for an online cash shop, they really should look into using Bitshares as their backend. It has an internal exchange where everyone can keep track of the total amount of currency issued, and at the same time they can create their own currency using the mechanic for user-issued assets which could be used in the game and on their website, the code is open source. Either way it would allow AC to be in control while allowing players to run the economy in real-time.


Me and my buddies are always looking for friendly people to game with. Are you that type of person? Then look us up @ www.seireitei.info ;)

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Also, has any thought been on the potential third-party 'currency' sellers?  Is Crowfall going to be full of mining bots [albeit cash cows for pvp mind you] with chat spam such as '~~~ ATTN CROWFALL ORENS 1/2 OFF - BESTEST PRICE IN LAND, 100-10$US, BUY,BUY,BUY~~~'?

I would presume (and I really do hope this is the case.) That spammers will not have a safe place to sit and camp. Thus you'll simply have to hunt them down, and gank 'em. Also make if impossible to type in chat while dead. Most annoying custard mechanic I've met that spammers have used. Death should = silence. Not Death=easy way to continue to spam for 30+ min in chat before almost everyone mutes you.

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To add to this, gold sellers don't need to win Campaigns. They can simply gather the resources or coins, and sell those to whomever else in the Campaign, winners or losers. Most of it will go up in a puff a smoke at the end; all except the dollars in the sellers' pockets.

 

True but people will still pay to win in campaigns if allowed to do so, even if it doesn't last. The win is all they want. I am pretty confident though that gold selling won't exist too much in the dregs, unless it's coming from one of the established or winning guilds. As long as the dregs are zero import and full loot,  they will remain largely encapsulated from this problem. Gold selling will, however, have the opportunity to wreak substantial havoc on the God's Reach and EK economy, and it will attract people who want to spend real life money in that direction, which (hopefully) will keep it out of the dregs.

Edited by Mytherceria

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Eve's chokepoints mean that huge swaths of nullspace can be effectively secured by just a few dozen players on gate duty, leaving all the space behind them almost completely safe for hundreds or thousands of macroers. I don't think we have any reason to suspect the same phenomenon will be observed on Crowfall maps which will be both much smaller and much less chokeable than Eve's map.

Lets not forget if you want to get to a resource all you have to do is get the element of surprise. Esseintially if you have no way to track a digger, whats to stop me, you or some schmuck from digging under a choke point to get somewhere? holed up with a mountain on two sides and a deadfall for a chokepoint so that when I dig, I get stuck? I'll just go through the damn mountain. I personally love conflict, but I love getting into places/areas where I shouldn't/should be impossible to be. A lot of these concerns can be side stepped with a bit 'o player-self policing and ingenuity.

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True but people will still pay to win in campaigns if allowed to do so, even if it doesn't last. The win is all they want. I am pretty confident though that gold selling won't exist too much in the dregs, unless it's coming from one of the winning guilds. As long as the dregs are zero import and full loot,  they will remain largely encapsulated from this problem. Gold selling will, however, have the opportunity to wreak substantial havoc on the God's Reach and EK economy, and it will attract people who want to spend real life money in that direction, which (hopefully) will keep it out of the dregs.

Actually gold would be a rare commodity on the lower band worlds. How rare is yet to be seen, but the real cash to be made easily will be in the Dregs and Shadow bands. I.e. just bot and kneel in one instance.

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Actually gold would be a rare commodity on the lower band worlds. How rare is yet to be seen, but the real cash to be made easily will be in the Dregs and Shadow bands. I.e. just bot and kneel in one instance.

 

I am pretty sure they will try but I don't know how far they will get if they (and perhaps their banks) are killed and looted repeatedly. The only way this could happen is if the gold sellers were part of an established guild and it went unnoticed. You have a good point about the kneeling mechanic, though, and it brings up potential problem with kneeling early and being able to take stuff out. The kneeling mechanic will probably have to be a lot stricter than that.

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God, bartering has been custard awful in all the games that haven't had established currency, no npc vendors would be less bad but still a major pain in the balls. It effectively cripples the gaming fun for everyone but a few players that like to indulge in that kind of masochistic behaviour.


Member of The BlackHand Order

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The similarities between EVE and Crowfall, despite the announced currency, are going to be minimal based on a few key decisions;

 

  1. The largest is no centralized market place. EVE utilizes region-based market searching, limiting your markets to regions of about the equivilant of a regular server population in any MMO. Obviously players created a priority market destination (system name: Jita) to allow for easier trades. Crowfall won't have this. EVE's market is in a protected space that prevents player versus player combat, except ganking (which almost always ends in the attacker being blown out of the sky by NPC guards). This means that in Crowfall establishing a centralized market is highly unlikely (EK's will be useless in the middle of campaigns where most trade will occur).
  2. Despite an established currency, without a market to establish base prices, the value of raw resource is always going to be in flux. Players will have no idea what the value of a block of stone is, until they try to buy one. It will make setting the cost of a city siege (Players lose city worth $10,000 USD) almost impossible unless we guess-estimate the value of every resource that was lost during a battle.

Effectively the Crowfall system is much closer to bartering, despite a currency, because of point one. While I enjoyed, historically, the trading that occurred in Everquests Eastern/Western Commonlands (back in the day), it doesn't mean I wanted to have that replicated in today's gaming market. Still a currency is a win. Though I suppose you can still be goat traders if you really want to.

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God, bartering has been custard awful in all the games that haven't had established currency, no npc vendors would be less bad but still a major pain in the balls. It effectively cripples the gaming fun for everyone but a few players that like to indulge in that kind of masochistic behaviour.

Exactly, if I just want to login and buy some gear and then get in a Campaign asap. Doubt many would want to let their playtime be limited by having to spend hours tracking down various resource's and items just to make what should have been a simple transaction. I want to buy Helm of Uber, I have some coin, I search a few places to find the best price, buy it and I'm off into the gameplay I want. Not sure how that is a bad thing, adding some archaic annoyance doesn't add much in the way of fun and compelling gameplay.

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I am pretty sure they will try but I don't know how far they will get if they (and perhaps their banks) are killed and looted repeatedly. The only way this could happen is if the gold sellers were part of an established guild and it went unnoticed. You have a good point about the kneeling mechanic, though, and it brings up potential problem with kneeling early and being able to take stuff out. The kneeling mechanic will probably have to be a lot stricter than that.

Kneeling doesn't mean you get to quit the campaign and take half your embargo vault deposits with you that day.

Kneeling means you swore fealty to another guild. 

I would like for that decision to stand until the end of the campaign, since the victor will likely grant the vassal some quarter for sparing him, but it doesn't seem to be binding even during that campaign.

Campaign hopping still means no loot for the toon that leaves the campaign, and maybe a long-duration debuff as well.

 

 

16. WHAT IS TO PREVENT PEOPLE FROM NON-STOP CAMPAIGN HOPPING?

 

Campaigns are not intended to be transitory. Our design goal is for players to pick a Campaign and stick with it until the end.

We have a number of ideas to enforce or encourage this, from hard rules (i.e. characters are locked to a Campaign) to soft rules (if you quit a Campaign early, you lose all rewards and pay a penalty.)

This is one that we’re still debating, though – and we’d love to hear your thoughts! On the good side, it’s also a decision that we can easily change, if we try something and we don’t like it.

 

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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I would like you to give me an example of someone buying power with gold and who they are buying this from.

 

I don't understand this question, or at least I don't understand its relevance to the discussion at hand. Would you care to restate?


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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It's an interesting topic, but not something I think the game can mechanic.  We used to do this sort of thing in Asheron's Call.  Every server world you went to had different currencies because the economy there decided what items would be their base units.

 

For example, at one time all trade was dictated by [# of Pyreal Ingot] = [# of Trade Notes] = [# of Diamond Scarabs].  Often you could pay with any of the three, but the price of the item was determined by value of one of the 3.  Those 3 items were different on different servers because the players said so, not because of a game mechanic.

 

Items are only valuable if a player wants them, which changes with time.  It's best to create the base system, gold coins, and let the market and players flesh the rest out.

 

 

Good, and common, game player economies are essentially a combined Currency/Barter system.  They'll be a standard currency, but inevitably the players will direct the economy and what's of value.

 

Yes to carrying your loot-able currency.

No to built-in VIP/currency conversions.

Yes to currency embargo rules.

Yes to currency/base material conversion rates (alchemy).

Edited by toteofmagik

"Where there is unity there is always victory." -- Publilius Syrus

"If there weren't luck involved, I would win every time." -- Phil Hellmuth
"A good soldier does not fight because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." -- G. K. Chesterton

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  1. The largest is no centralized market place. EVE utilizes region-based market searching, limiting your markets to regions of about the equivilant of a regular server population in any MMO. Obviously players created a priority market destination (system name: Jita) to allow for easier trades. Crowfall won't have this. EVE's market is in a protected space that prevents player versus player combat, except ganking (which almost always ends in the attacker being blown out of the sky by NPC guards). This means that in Crowfall establishing a centralized market is highly unlikely (EK's will be useless in the middle of campaigns where most trade will occur).

 

With a mandated currency, there is tremendous incentive for the less-enterprising players to use it as the standard exchange currency. This usage will span all campaigns and the Eternal Kingdoms. To the degree that trade occurs anywhere, this currency will be the most-used. To the degree that trade occurs anywhere, farmers will be able to acquire the currency and sell it for real money out-of-game and transfer it in-game. Any mechanical restriction on their ability to do this equally restricts all trade in the first place. So to the degree that trade occurs, farmers can participate and profit. They will have to manage their various pools of currency and the segregated markets for that currency, but again, they will always be vastly more effective at managing that efficiency and finding margins than you or ArtCraft will be at eliminating margins, because they have the balance of incentives in their favor.

 

  1.  
  2. Despite an established currency, without a market to establish base prices, the value of raw resource is always going to be in flux. Players will have no idea what the value of a block of stone is, until they try to buy one. It will make setting the cost of a city siege (Players lose city worth $10,000 USD) almost impossible unless we guess-estimate the value of every resource that was lost during a battle.

 

Because human beings are inertial, they will presume that prices transfer, at least by default, across campaigns. At minimum, they will have expectations of general pricing that they will take with them from campaign to campaign. Furthermore, because the currency is used for Eternal Kingdoms, with fixed pricing for the goods the currency can buy from ArtCraft, there is an external imposition of time-derived currency value that will severely influence, if not entirely overwhelm, the in-campaign markets using that currency. Even if there were no direct market value connection between campaigns and the Eternal Kingdoms, human beings will still harbor singular expectations by nature, and take them wherever they go. However, there are direct market value connections between campaigns and the Eternal Kingdoms, because currency will flow in and out of at least some campaigns, as will the items that the currency converts to and from. This creates an external value imposition on items in the game, across campaigns. Even campaigns with zero ingress rules still have egress, which ties their markets to the overall marketplace, even if trade itself is sometimes segregated.

 

You can not ignore the reality of human beings and their natures and hope to understand, much less mastermind, economics. Everything about this game's economy must account for the incentives that drive human actions. A mandated currency will drive up the incentive for farming, and the real money implications of that incentive will drive farmers to outsmart ArtCraft.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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I really like the way they chose to handle this, making gold more of a specialized commodity than a true currency. Once all the big guilds have their stockpile and demand tapers off, the value of the coins will plummet, then it'll go back up once upkeeps have been going for awhile. Meanwhile the crafters will remain more concerned about mats than they will about gold.

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I really like the way they chose to handle this, making gold more of a specialized commodity than a true currency. Once all the big guilds have their stockpile and demand tapers off, the value of the coins will plummet, then it'll go back up once upkeeps have been going for awhile. Meanwhile the crafters will remain more concerned about mats than they will about gold.

 

There is a full loop here.  The basis for my AC post above was also that fact that the pyreal coin was essentially worthless, there was just too much money in game.  The fact that these coins can be smelted and applied to crafting will help substantially with the currency loop.


"Where there is unity there is always victory." -- Publilius Syrus

"If there weren't luck involved, I would win every time." -- Phil Hellmuth
"A good soldier does not fight because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." -- G. K. Chesterton

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