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Pann

Coin of the realm - Official discussion thread

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Thank you for not allowing us to mint different coins for each guild that aren't interchangeable.

 

Hopefully a coin is just the smallest unit of pure metal (or alloy) and we experience no loss of the resource when we melt them down to craft an item or material.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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I definitely like it. This is needed to address a lot of the economy issues, since we are going to be relying solely on each other for trade. With only player owned vendors, trying to shop via trade-only would be a nightmare. I've got 6 leather hides and want a battleaxe, now I have to not just find a vendor selling a battleaxe, but also find one that will accept 6 leather hides in trade. That's not fun. It could almost work if it was all actual people and you could haggle, but when you plop down a Thrall NPC to be your vendor you can't program him to haggle for you. A universal currency is definitely the best way, IMO.

 

Also, love that it's lootable. Smashing people over the head and taking their money is always fun.

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I'm kind of disappointed to be honest. I loved the idea of the barter system, and I've seen it work in games before. I know you say it's not fun, J Todd, but it was probably the most fun I have had trading...it made trading more interactive in and of itself. I never spent more time engage in economics or felt more rewarded than finding those perfect barter deals or interacting with a large amount of people, seeing what they had, and maybe finding something interesting yourself you hadn't seen before in the process.

 

I also feel like this takes a decent chunk away from the EK's. If the point is to have hundreds and hundreds and each have their own unique vendors and player driven economies, this basically stamps a lot of the emergent gameplay out by introducing common currency (which we have seen in basically every MMO). Feels like a cop out, and [at worse, but not suspected] hopefully not a path to leading to ACE monetizing in game currency on top of VIP tickets.

 

I can see why it's hard to implement the barter system, though. Players would eventually settle on something(s) that would represent that base currency (otherwise you don't know what you should bring to the market to trade, and it's a hassle to find another player that wants That Thing in trade for This Thing when they have listed This Thing for Those Things in the vendor they set up.) This is just taking that step and adding some ease to it. Now we know that the thing you will likely trade is converted ore.

 

Considering that ore is also used to craft things, this also gives everyone a nice base value to work from for most armor types.

 

This also allows easy selling of land and other EK goodies for coins (giving you in-game means of acquiring those items) without the system having to 'guess' at what the market value is; and also easily solves the taxes issue. With coins as taxes, it isn't 'weird'. Otherwise you might've had to hunt down specific items to be tax items (depending on what the system set) and if those were static, they would sorta be the defacto currency anyway. Solves a lot of design issues.

 

With players populating the items for sale in vendors, there is still a lot of interesting things to do for spending gold and having the economy be player driven. The only static coin sinks would be for EK items that players cannot make, perhaps? Everything else would be made or sold by players.

 

An interesting thought is that some crafters can take the very money they earn from selling items and turn that into materials to make more things! And since ore can be armor/weapons, and those are destroyed in battle, it really acts as a money sink. I'm sure there are quite a few balancing factors needed (depending on how lossy various conversions are) but definitely something that can be tweaked, even when the game is live.

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I think the idea is solid. I never understood how there could be no defined currency.  Gives a whole new value to gathering and prospect towns :)

Players will still have to agree on exchange rates between metal coins, unless ACE (knowing the scarcity ratio built-in) states an exchange ratio between coin types in the shop.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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I know but every mmo game has this barter system and i just like how we can just trade raw materials and items instead of just giving them currency to pay off. i think its more unique economy system. I rather trade a shield that i have found during the campaign and trade it for a sword i can use instead of farming up currency to pay for things. It reminds me the good old days of diablo 2 =D

 

It takes it from being an economy of "Do they have what I need?" and "Do I have what they need?", to "Do they have what I want for the coins I have"...which is a basic rehash of every MMO with a vendor system. There will always be a player-driven set currency (Gold bars, a certain sword, an enchantment stone), but it usually changes with whatever new items ACE introduces, so it makes the economy more dynamic. If you want to be good, you have to have a finger on the pulse of what precisely players need at that time. That can be just as big of game play as crafting and spying.

 

All the players who say they don't understand how it would work have never played a game with a system like this. I never played the market game, but in barter systems I loved it.


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I'm kind of disappointed to be honest. I loved the idea of the barter system, and I've seen it work in games before. I know you say it's not fun, J Todd, but it was probably the most fun I have had trading...it made trading more interactive in and of itself. I never spent more time engage in economics or felt more rewarded than finding those perfect barter deals or interacting with a large amount of people, seeing what they had, and maybe finding something interesting yourself you hadn't seen before in the process.

 

I also feel like this takes a decent chunk away from the EK's. If the point is to have hundreds and hundreds and each have their own unique vendors and player driven economies, this basically stamps a lot of the emergent gameplay out by introducing common currency (which we have seen in basically every MMO). Feels like a cop out, and [at worse, but not suspected] hopefully not a path to leading to ACE monetizing in game currency on top of VIP tickets.

 

 

I'd rather play the game than play the economy anymore than I have too. I know some people live and die for playing the economy but the majority of people I feel would rather just play the game. A bartering system means that I could end up spending hours or even days looking for someone willing to trade some BS for another. 

 

This system is also a bit of the best of both worlds. Currency isn't safe, it can be looted, caravans can be taken. You also need to make a choice with a material that can become scarce, do you turn it into currency or items? If you turn it into an item you can revert it back to raw ore and into currency BUT at a loss. 

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It takes it from being an economy of "Do they have what I need?" and "Do I have what they need?", to "Do they have what I want for the coins I have"...which is a basic rehash of every MMO with a vendor system. There will always be a player-driven set currency (Gold bars, a certain sword, an enchantment stone), but it usually changes with whatever new items ACE introduces, so it makes the economy more dynamic. If you want to be good, you have to have a finger on the pulse of what precisely players need at that time. That can be just as big of game play as crafting and spying.

 

All the players who say they don't understand how it would work have never played a game with a system like this. I never played the market game, but in barter systems I loved it.

 

I think there will still be plenty to barter however as from what I can tell, gold will have little real world value outside of what players set it as.  You have to remember that there is no AH, or standardized monetary system with set prices for specific items.  If they tie the value of currency to something like VIP however, that is where your assumptions would be 100% correct and I'd agree with your concerns.

 

Otherwise, I'd expect the best of both worlds by introducing the ability to create coins.

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This also allows easy selling of land and other EK goodies for coins (giving you in-game means of acquiring those items) without the system having to 'guess' at what the market value is; and also easily solves the taxes issue. With coins as taxes, it isn't 'weird'.

Exactly, it makes the economy easy mode and that's the reason it has mass appeal right now. It appeals to the lowest common denominator of solo driven mass-appeal MMO economic markets, instead of forcing you to actually collaborate with someone that has a skill in marketing...just like as a PVPer who doesn't want to craft, they find a crafter.


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It takes it from being an economy of "Do they have what I need?" and "Do I have what they need?", to "Do they have what I want for the coins I have"...which is a basic rehash of every MMO with a vendor system. There will always be a player-driven set currency (Gold bars, a certain sword, an enchantment stone), but it usually changes with whatever new items ACE introduces, so it makes the economy more dynamic. If you want to be good, you have to have a finger on the pulse of what precisely players need at that time. That can be just as big of game play as crafting and spying.

 

All the players who say they don't understand how it would work have never played a game with a system like this. I never played the market game, but in barter systems I loved it.

Not sure how you can honestly say its a rehash, when the coins have to be made by players using ore we acquire and there are no NPC vendors that spit out coins when you sell junk to it. Its all player run, its still a barter system. They also take up inventory space and can be dropped upon death. Can probably only list on one hand other MMOs that have that and certainly not "every" one.

Edited by pang

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A Question for Artcraft:

 

Will coins, in any way shape or form be tied to VIP or be allowed to purchase things from the cash shop?


If you do this, IMO, it could devastate the entire "player driven economy" by establishing value based off of cash shop items.

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Another amazing post from you guys! I am really liking what I have read so far and can't wait to try out some of these ideas in Alpha.

 

But sadly, no Tully interview! :(


"Kansas City Shuffle - When everybody looks right, you go left."

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Do you guys think that we kill enemy players we can get a portion of coins from looting their corpses? or capturing their caravans so we can loot the coins and items from their pack pigs?

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I was hoping for this.

 

One really good thing about this, is the effect it will have on the EK vs Campaign people war (Yes I know. It is my pet project).

 

Now, the people that mainly focus on EKs have the option to join a campaign, gather stuff, sell it to the people that need that stuff and export the coins to spend on their EKs.

I am assuming that people IN a campaign with a guild, will have little use for coins between them, so it should be a new valid playstyle.


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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Exactly, it makes the economy easy mode and that's the reason it has mass appeal right now. It appeals to the lowest common denominator of solo driven mass-appeal MMO economic markets, instead of forcing you to actually collaborate with someone that has a skill in marketing...just like as a PVPer who doesn't want to craft, they find a crafter.

I think I see where you are coming from with this.  You would find value in there being middle men who go out and effectively do the bartering for clients who need "x amount of this" and are willing to pay "y amount of this".

 

This simplifies the trade system to some degree, but the availability of coins might also help sustain a barter system as will the lack of coins being tied to any "Gold Standard" as with the US currency.  It is all relative to what people are willing to accept as payment.  Coins might become worthless based off of their in game value to the player experience.

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Exactly, it makes the economy easy mode and that's the reason it has mass appeal right now. It appeals to the lowest common denominator of solo driven mass-appeal MMO economic markets, instead of forcing you to actually collaborate with someone that has a skill in marketing...just like as a PVPer who doesn't want to craft, they find a crafter.

 

I meant 'easy' for a coding/ACE perspective, more so than a player perspective. Sure, it's easier for players, but designing a system that can tax players and offer players land for a set price that doesn't have currency? That's complicated to design; waaaay more effort than they should spend on that aspect of the economy. Coin abstracts those values enough, but I feel the system is still complex (due to the reasons others have stated, with the coins still not being safe and weighing the value of the coins versus the value of the armor).

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It takes it from being an economy of "Do they have what I need?" and "Do I have what they need?", to "Do they have what I want for the coins I have"...which is a basic rehash of every MMO with a vendor system. There will always be a player-driven set currency (Gold bars, a certain sword, an enchantment stone), but it usually changes with whatever new items ACE introduces, so it makes the economy more dynamic. If you want to be good, you have to have a finger on the pulse of what precisely players need at that time. That can be just as big of game play as crafting and spying.

 

All the players who say they don't understand how it would work have never played a game with a system like this. I never played the market game, but in barter systems I loved it.

 

Well, I have played in barter games, but it doesn't really work with the model they are doing here for Crowfall, IMO. Consider your comment about needed to have  "a finger on the pulse of what players need". OK. In a barter system game, if you really want/need an item and you don't have what the other player wants for it, you can go out and try to get it. I don't know if I think it's as fun as you are making it out to be, but it works. It's almost a kind of player generated quest.

 

Problem is, in Crowfall, that only works in campaigns. If you are shopping in the EK and the other player wants a resource you didn't embargo...tough luck. Try again in a few months after your next campaign.

 

A currency, that could be used in both environments, was one of the missing ingredients connecting the EK to the Campaign, IMO.

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I'm kind of disappointed to be honest. 

 

I guess they could still run campaigns without coins. Just ban imports, don't place any gold/silver/copper ore, and ban alchemists or something.


 

 

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A Question for Artcraft:

 

Will coins, in any way shape or form be tied to VIP or be allowed to purchase things from the cash shop?

If you do this, IMO, it could devastate the entire "player driven economy" by establishing value based off of cash shop items.

 

Players for sure will find an equivalent amount of currency to trade VIPs for... but I do agree that making a direct link with VIP and cash shop is bad.

 

wrong

fool.

 

wrong again

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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