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Coin of the realm - Official discussion thread

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I hope the thing that in every other mmo happens won't happen here to a high degree - it's called Inflation.

In normal mmo's this is only annoying, because the numbers get higher and higher. In Crowfall where the Currency will be an Inventory Item I don't want to end up having to carry so many Coins that my Inventory is clustered with them just to buy some simple thing.

This has to be kept in mind, since alpha and beta won't last that long to simulate one or 2 months of players stacking up on those Coins -

so create high enough coin sinks, that this scenario wont end up happening.

If they raise the sinks (EK stuff) with inflation, it will make it really difficult for new players coming to the game.


 

This game looks like a larger scale version of marvel heroes so far with forts.  - nephiral marts 7 2015

 

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so create high enough coin sinks, that this scenario wont end up happening.

 

Fortunately this can be done at any time.  If the value of gold is dropping they can add something new that requires gold.

 

Also, if people need to carry more wealth than is feasible with gold, due to weight, there could be coins made from rarer materials.


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The reason governments mandate unitary currencies for public debts is to give them control over the money supply. ACE does not have that motivation. Instead, by doing this, by creating a fiat currency, they've created for themselves the extra burden of having to manage the economy. Whereas with no fiat currency, the relative values of various commodities float, organically, according to the vagaries of the market and the individual value perspectives of economic participants, ACE is now establishing hard, absolute value indices. No longer does the economic value of a commodity float; it is now indexed against the fiat currency. Not only has the game's economy lost the majority of its potential for emergent behaviors, but ACE has now required themselves to make sure the supplies of every other commodity don't rise or fall too far.

 

I am thinking they are going to have to do this if they want their VIP tickets to work. People are going to need the VIP tickets to pay taxes (unless they win in campaigns, or if taxes can be paid directly in the shop) and to do this they need a currency that is a commodity they have some control over.

Edited by Mytherceria

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I think having a liquid currency is a great way to counter-act the amount of work it would take to set up an exchange UI with every item in the game that you could possibly want to trade.

 

If I'm selling a sword for 100 chickens and the guy next to me is selling his sword for 100 logs or 100 mushrooms or 100 of any of the other 500,000 items in the game, you'd have to put all of those items into a GUI so vendors could trade them. It's not only a lot of work for the development team but, it's messy and complex in-game.

 

Having coins in the game doesn't prevent you from bartering with other players, it just means you're not forced to barter.

 

The only downside that I see with coins is, coin currency tends to stabilize exponentially faster than barter systems.

 

An example would be if the community decides that a sword is worth 100 copper and as a crafter, you decide to sell your sword for 105 copper, nobody will ever buy it because it's too expensive. If everybody is selling swords for 100 chickens and you put your sword up for 105 chickens, chances are that player doesn't know the going rate for sword to chicken conversion because it's more abstract. 

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Before you could have face to face only if the other player was there. You can still do this and offer to trade or haggle.

 

You can turn that around.

 

If there is no reason to trade face-to-face, there is much less reason to stay in your EK and barter with other travellers. Granted, this is only fun in somewhat larger EKs. 

 

What I fear is not so much that I can't sell my hundreds of ore face-to-face anymore. I fear that coins being tied to tangible real money (through ingame-shop, VIP tickets) the value of coins will be extremely static, in turn allowing high valued items to be traded without player interaction. Bottomline, I want there to be a need to interact with other players to sell my super awesome sword.

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This thread grows faster than I can bloody read it!

 

I am disappointed, I will not be using coins as currency myself.  If this screws me over so that I can't trade with anyone, so be it.  I'm damned well going to play in Hard Mode, and try to gather stuff that's worth so much people will choose to trade with me regardless.

 

That said, the explanation makes sense.  I don't agree with it, but I really do appreciate that there's an explanation and what looks like a fair bit of thinking going into it.


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We need coins.

 

That being said nothing is stopping people without coins from bartering with other goods.  Guilds will need raw resources just as much, if not more so, than coins.

 

Whoa watch out, reason and logic are dangerous beasts ;)


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I hope the thing that in every other mmo happens won't happen here to a high degree - it's called Inflation.

In normal mmo's this is only annoying, because the numbers get higher and higher. In Crowfall where the Currency will be an Inventory Item I don't want to end up having to carry so many Coins that my Inventory is clustered with them just to buy some simple thing.

This has to be kept in mind, since alpha and beta won't last that long to simulate one or 2 months of players stacking up on those Coins -

so create high enough coin sinks, that this scenario wont end up happening.

 

Inflation happens in barter systems too. The TF2 market has been inflated over the last few years--your keys buy more scrap metal now. Inflation is simply an increase in the supply of money. Price changes are a reaction to that. The more free goods in the market (currency), then the higher prices will go. 

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The reason governments mandate unitary currencies for public debts is to give them control over the money supply. ACE does not have that motivation. Instead, by doing this, by creating a fiat currency, they've created for themselves the extra burden of having to manage the economy. Whereas with no fiat currency, the relative values of various commodities float, organically, according to the vagaries of the market and the individual value perspectives of economic participants, ACE is now establishing hard, absolute value indices. No longer does the economic value of a commodity float; it is now indexed against the fiat currency. Not only has the game's economy lost the majority of its potential for emergent behaviors, but ACE has now required themselves to make sure the supplies of every other commodity don't rise or fall too far.

 

This scenario looks all too realistic. I hope ACE have some people in their team that actually understand how economic theory works. 

 

In my opinion, economy is just as important as combat, since it drives the longterm goals of players.

Edited by Kalsomir

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I am thinking they are going to have to do this if they want their VIP tickets to work. People are going to need the VIP tickets to pay taxes (unless they win in campaigns, or if taxes can be paid directly in the shop) and to do this they need a currency that is a commodity they have some control over.

 

The best way to price a VIP ticket in in-game commodities is dynamically to price them according to the state of the market. This can be done with much less data analysis than many seem to suppose. In this way, no matter what happens in the game's economy, they can set the in-game "price" of a VIP ticket to the same relative level across all time. Because they also sell VIP tickets for real money, this gives them the very effective ability to undercut RMT farmers. However, if they do things the wrong way around, as they're currently on track to do, they have a whole host of knock-on obligations they have to manage. They have to adjust the economy, by brute force, reactively to make sure their arbitrary pricing doesn't crash the market.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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The reason governments mandate unitary currencies for public debts is to give them control over the money supply. ACE does not have that motivation. Instead, by doing this, by creating a fiat currency, they've created for themselves the extra burden of having to manage the economy. Whereas with no fiat currency, the relative values of various commodities float, organically, according to the vagaries of the market and the individual value perspectives of economic participants, ACE is now establishing hard, absolute value indices. No longer does the economic value of a commodity float; it is now indexed against the fiat currency. Not only has the game's economy lost the majority of its potential for emergent behaviors, but ACE has now required themselves to make sure the supplies of every other commodity don't rise or fall too far.

 

You are suggesting that fiat currency causes commodities prices to stagnate? Why does indexing Stone against Silver Coin instead of Chickens suddenly require careful control of the prices?

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You are suggesting that fiat currency causes commodities prices to stagnate? Why does indexing Stone against Silver Coin instead of Chickens suddenly require careful control of the prices?

 

Because silver coins have a real money value, whereas chickens do not.

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I think having a liquid currency is a great way to counter-act the amount of work it would take to set up an exchange UI with every item in the game that you could possibly want to trade.

 

If I'm selling a sword for 100 chickens and the guy next to me is selling his sword for 100 logs or 100 mushrooms or 100 of any of the other 500,000 items in the game, you'd have to put all of those items into a GUI so vendors could trade them. It's not only a lot of work for the development team but, it's messy and complex in-game.

 

Having coins in the game doesn't prevent you from bartering with other players, it just means you're not forced to barter.

 

The only downside that I see with coins is, coin currency tends to stabilize exponentially faster than barter systems.

 

An example would be if the community decides that a sword is worth 100 copper and as a crafter, you decide to sell your sword for 105 copper, nobody will ever buy it because it's too expensive. If everybody is selling swords for 100 chickens and you put your sword up for 105 chickens, chances are that player doesn't know the going rate for sword to chicken conversion because it's more abstract. 

 

Coinage does not eliminate arbitrage opportunities. Players won't suddenly have perfect market knowledge of every asking price of a sword. 

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The best way to price a VIP ticket in in-game commodities is dynamically to price them according to the state of the market. This can be done with much less data analysis than many seem to suppose. In this way, no matter what happens in the game's economy, they can set the in-game "price" of a VIP ticket to the same relative level across all time. Because they also sell VIP tickets for real money, this gives them the very effective ability to undercut RMT farmers. However, if they do things the wrong way around, as they're currently on track to do, they have a whole host of knock-on obligations they have to manage. They have to adjust the economy, by brute force, reactively to make sure their arbitrary pricing doesn't crash the market.

 

I'm pretty certain players won't be able to buy VIP tickets for in-game items from ACE. VIP tickets will only be created via $$ and then injected into the game where other players will trade for them.

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I'm pretty certain players won't be able to buy VIP tickets for in-game items from ACE. VIP tickets will only be created via $$ and then injected into the game where other players will trade for them.

 

I think it's just simpler to set the price of a VIP ticket in coins as opposed to chickens, but it is also limiting because coins is just one thing, where as "chickens" can be anything.

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What? How does a Silver Coin in game have real money value when Chickens do not?

 

Because you can buy store items with both coins and dollars.

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The reason governments mandate unitary currencies for public debts is to give them control over the money supply. ACE does not have that motivation. Instead, by doing this, by creating a fiat currency, they've created for themselves the extra burden of having to manage the economy. Whereas with no fiat currency, the relative values of various commodities float, organically, according to the vagaries of the market and the individual value perspectives of economic participants, ACE is now establishing hard, absolute value indices. No longer does the economic value of a commodity float; it is now indexed against the fiat currency. Not only has the game's economy lost the majority of its potential for emergent behaviors, but ACE has now required themselves to make sure the supplies of every other commodity don't rise or fall too far.

They have the burden to manage the economy anyway, because this is a game not only about economic simulation, but about PvP too (and probably some more things like decorating etc.) To allow the people who don't play the economic game as their main game to have fun too, ACE has to manage the economy or many at the losing side of the economic game won't be very happy.

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