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C&C Weekly Discussion/Poll: Coins

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I'm taking a step back from this whole discussion because I've beaten my view like a dead horse. I just want to say that once the game goes live, and there is next to zero bartering, I'm going to say "I told ya so". 3 VIP tickets to the first person that says it to me if there is actually a legitimate bartering system that players participate in now that coins have been introduced. Hold me to it.

You can still barter, it's not removing that option. It means others aren't forced to barter that don't want to.

 

Since I hate wasting time running around trying to trade lumber for Chickens for ore for the item I want, this is a great change


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What I can foresee is this creating two economies based off of value with a conversion rate determined somewhere in the middle.

 

As a "hardcore pvp" community, let's assume we don't try to build an EK, don't care about buildings outside of the basics to house blessings and don't want cosmetics.  The value of coins to our community is effectively whatever that coin is worth melted down into a raw material that can be used for crafting items for use in campaigns.  Assuming there are more communities similar to ours, it would be relatively easy to establish a separate economy based off of resource needs for entering into campaigns.  I'm making the assumption is that things we take into campaigns will have resource costs of lumber/ore/stone/gems/ect.  We'd then be able to barter those for whatever we needed with others within our PVP economy.

 

Now, there will also be the crafters and EK focused people who want to build trading empires.  Often times cosmetics are important in those circles and thus gold coins will be valuable to them as they will be spent on maintenance and building their EK.

 

That could see two separate economies established and then there would be brokering between the two to ensure that PvP'ers aren't paying a ridiculous amount of resources for crafted gear outside of their economy.  The crafters would set the value of coins over time among themselves, but the resource fluctuation based off of campaign success and completion will provide PvP'ers leverage as well when purchasing gear.

 

This is how I envision the game playing out unless ACE finds coin sinks in campaigns at which point, coins will have an artificial value during campaigns and then there will be massive fluctuations at the end of campaigns as the winners bring their rewards out.

 

There will only be one economy outside of campaigns. Completely homogenized with no variation from EK to EK. You're basically going to be playing the load into 50 EKs game and walk from vendor to vendor to see who sells what for the coins the market has valued them as. Inside the campaign past the first initial few, coins will be brought in as a way for Uncle Bob to have a leg up on everyone else by trading coins for resources procured within the campaigns and 'protection' for them to get the coins out safely through the embargo. Like I said, hold me to it and the tickets are yours.

 

Those who enjoy EKs will get shafted by a simple economy, leaving them with just crafting and playing the Sims 5. Those within the campaign will get shafted by Uncle Bob acting like Lannisters, paying people off and acquiring whatever they need because they won't have to worry about making a tactical decision of which resources to bring in the Campaign, just carry the singular currency that has global value.


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You can still barter, it's not removing that option. It means others aren't forced to barter that don't want to.

 

Since I hate wasting time running around trying to trade lumber for Chickens for ore for the item I want, this is a great change

 

As a crafter, you'd likely require the majority of your sales to be in coins as those are easily circulated in your circles, thus forcing people who want to barter to either convert their resources into coins(probably losing out on value) or try and barter them with a crafter who may not need your resources.  Primal's expectation is that people would just get fed up trying to barter due to the lack of crafters willing to accept resources as payment as opposed to coins.

 

I think that's reasonable, unless my scenario above plays out which IMO helps to balance the power of value between crafters and end users.

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wasting time running around trying to trade lumber for Chickens for ore for the item I want

 

The only people who think this would actually happen to any meaningful degree are people who aren't thinking through to the realistic situation that would unfold. Look at Diablo II. Gold was valueless and ineffective as an exchange medium. Yet Diablo II had a vibrant player-created and -run marketplace based entirely on barter. There evolved three currencies: Stone of Jordan, gems, and runes. The preference of currency changed as each floated in supply and therefore derived value, which changed the interchange rates among the three currencies. Everything was organically generated by the players. Indeed, originally there was only one meaningful common currency, gems. Then they were replaced almost entirely by Stone of Jordan. As that became by turns too rare or too common, gems reemerged as an alternative currency, and then runes joined as a third. All of this happened organically, and no one who didn't want to had to "trade lumber for Chickens[sic]".

 

A barter economy is not characterized by a lack of exchange media. It is characterized by organically-chosen exchange media.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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There will only be one economy outside of campaigns. Completely homogenized with no variation from EK to EK. You're basically going to be playing the load into 50 EKs game and walk from vendor to vendor to see who sells what for the coins the market has valued them as. Inside the campaign past the first initial few, coins will be brought in as a way for Uncle Bob to have a leg up on everyone else by trading coins for resources procured within the campaigns and 'protection' for them to get the coins out safely through the embargo. Like I said, hold me to it and the tickets are yours.

 

Those who enjoy EKs will get shafted by a simple economy, leaving them with just crafting and playing the Sims 5. Those within the campaign will get shafted by Uncle Bob acting like Lannisters, paying people off and acquiring whatever they need because they won't have to worry about making a tactical decision of which resources to bring in the Campaign, just carry the singular currency that has global value.

 

Coins will fall under import rules, so I don't expect people to bring them in as their value (as they become more scarce in the campaign) would not change from their value outside of the campaign.  As they aren't currently used for anything in the campaign, you will have coins that you can't do anything with and if someone hordes them all, they'll likely lose because what is valuable inside a campaign will be weapons/armor/fortifications/ect.

 

The only thing they can do to change this is to add coin sinks in campaigns... but I don't see much value in that TBH because even then, the value of coins will be different in campaign than they are outside.

Edited by valor

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I share the concern that I highly predict EK trading will boil down hopping from kingdom to kingdom until there is a vendor that has the item you want. If you can list your kingdom in some sort of public catalogue, I can even foresee people using the title to advertise their goods. This is not how I quite would want EK trading to be. Hopefully there is something more I am missing.

 

If crafting is specialized enough that not everyone can craft Badass Sword of Poorly Made Socks MK-XII, perhaps some people might be able to build up a reputation. Hopefully that is the case.

Edited by Kalsomir

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There will only be one economy outside of campaigns. Completely homogenized with no variation from EK to EK. You're basically going to be playing the load into 50 EKs game and walk from vendor to vendor to see who sells what for the coins the market has valued them as. Inside the campaign past the first initial few, coins will be brought in as a way for Uncle Bob to have a leg up on everyone else by trading coins for resources procured within the campaigns and 'protection' for them to get the coins out safely through the embargo. Like I said, hold me to it and the tickets are yours.

 

Those who enjoy EKs will get shafted by a simple economy, leaving them with just crafting and playing the Sims 5. Those within the campaign will get shafted by Uncle Bob acting like Lannisters, paying people off and acquiring whatever they need because they won't have to worry about making a tactical decision of which resources to bring in the Campaign, just carry the singular currency that has global value.

and before you would have had to load into 500 EKs trying to find the right combo of items to trade. Sounds fun! The market is still set by the players, we determine the value of items and services.

 

Uncle Bob can go amass as much coins as he wants, its not going to help him one bit from those that actually want to win the Campaign.

 

So yeah I think you should do what you said 3 posts ago and step back. You're just making stuff up that has no chance of actually happening.

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I share the concern that I highly predict EK trading will boil down hopping from kingdom to kingdom until there is a vendor that has the item you want. If you can list your kingdom in some sort of public catalogue, I can even foresee people using the title to advertise their goods. This is not how I quite would want EK trading to be. Hopefully there is something more I am missing.

 

If crafting is specialized enough that not everyone can craft Badass Sword of Poorly Made Socks MK-XII, perhaps some people might be able to build up a reputation. Hopefully that is the case.

 

They've talked about wanting an API that you can create exterior listings for EK's and crafters.  This has not been promised or fleshed out.

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Coins will fall under import rules, so I don't expect people to bring them in as their value (as they become more scarce in the campaign) would not change from their value outside of the campaign.  As they aren't currently used for anything in the campaign, you will have coins that you can't do anything with and if someone hordes them all, they'll likely lose because what is valuable inside a campaign will be weapons/armor/fortifications/ect.

 

The only thing they can do to change this is to add coin sinks in campaigns... but I don't see much value in that TBH because even then, the value of coins will be different in campaign than they are outside.

God damnit I said I was going to step back. Import rules won't matter to Uncle Bob's Guild who has acquired so much gold they have no idea what to do with it all. Those that are not massive guilds and need the gold to continue buying their resources and equip (it plans on breaking all the time) to bring into future campaigns will gladly give up their resources. I'm not saying uncle bob will be stupid enough to only come in with gold, but he will easily be able to horde/defend and pay for resources in the middle and (especially the end as players realize their guilds will lose and will gladly exchange whats left of their resources to /kneel and atleast take some gold back with them with protection from uncle bob), further setting them ahead.

 

 

It's a scenario. Might not happen pang. Tolerate my posts and give me the "I told you so" when it doesn't turn out like this and get you 3 months worth of game time...hell I'll even make it 5 for you since you'll probably need 2 to exchange for equip to GoML.


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I share the concern that I highly predict EK trading will boil down hopping from kingdom to kingdom until there is a vendor that has the item you want. If you can list your kingdom in some sort of public catalogue, I can even foresee people using the title to advertise their goods. This is not how I quite would want EK trading to be. Hopefully there is something more I am missing.

 

If crafting is specialized enough that not everyone can craft Badass Sword of Poorly Made Socks MK-XII, perhaps some people might be able to build up a reputation. Hopefully that is the case.

Since they've talked about being able to create search engines criteria, to advertise your Personal Kingdom, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what their vision is. I don't see a problem with it. I'm not sure what you were looking for. Just randomly visiting through hundreds of Personal Kingdoms?

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Since they've talked about being able to create search engines criteria, to advertise your Personal Kingdom, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what their vision is. I don't see a problem with it.

 

Go shop around in Dungeon Defenders and you'll see what this immediately devolves into.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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Early game Campaigns are going to be so interesting! I don't think it makes sense for crafters to accept coins for goods early in the Campaign, when coins are rare. Any discovery of gold ore is going to inflate the coin supply so greatly initially. I think crafters will only accept raw materials until a critical mass of coins exist. When will that changeover occur?

 

Actually, I retract my statement. The market won't instantaneously gain the information that ore was discovered and coins were created. It's probably OK for crafters to accept a single coin for a good, as long as the crafter is active in the economy.

Edited by motstandet

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I really wish people would shut up about import rules.

 

Until we get some confirmation that import rules will be larger than they are, they are currently:

 

-All Currently Equipped Items

-Nothing

 

Those, coupled with the FAQ that says "severely limited import across all campaign worlds," we have little reason to believe otherwise. Sure things could change, but goodness guys... they don't want Uncle Bob scenarios.

Edited by Adall

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As a crafter, you'd likely require the majority of your sales to be in coins as those are easily circulated in your circles, thus forcing people who want to barter to either convert their resources into coins(probably losing out on value) or try and barter them with a crafter who may not need your resources.  Primal's expectation is that people would just get fed up trying to barter due to the lack of crafters willing to accept resources as payment as opposed to coins.

 

I think that's reasonable, unless my scenario above plays out which IMO helps to balance the power of value between crafters and end users.

I understand, and the argument works against its self. Bartering is better but people won't barter because coins are easier... You want to force people to use a more cumbersome, time consuming, annoying system?

 

Or have coins and bartering at the same time... Options are good.


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God damnit I said I was going to step back. Import rules won't matter to Uncle Bob's Guild who has acquired so much gold they have no idea what to do with it all. Those that are not massive guilds and need the gold to continue buying their resources and equip (it plans on breaking all the time) to bring into future campaigns will gladly give up their resources. I'm not saying uncle bob will be stupid enough to only come in with gold, but he will easily be able to horde/defend and pay for resources in the middle and (especially the end as players realize their guilds will lose and will gladly exchange whats left of their resources to /kneel and atleast take some gold back with them with protection from uncle bob), further setting them ahead.

 

 

It's a scenario. Might not happen pang. Tolerate my posts and give me the "I told you so" when it doesn't turn out like this and get you 3 months worth of game time...hell I'll even make it 5 for you since you'll probably need 2 to exchange for equip to GoML.

I think you're misrepresenting what gold coins will be worth during a campaign (Let's assume 3 month campaign for fun).

 

As a group of 50 people (Group A)who can bring in 250 lbs of resources to start a campaign, we choose to bring in 125lbs of food/equipment and 125lbs of gold coins to buy what we need inside the campaign (because we just happen to have tons of gold coins).  We bring in coins because we expect that 125lbs of gold coins to be able to buy hundreds of pounds of resources.  Now, there are 11 10 man guilds(Groups 1-11) who brought in 50lbs each of resources (550lbs total) who then are willing to sell all of those resources for a conversion rate of 1lb of gold coin for 5 lbs of resources. (Resources are valued outside of campaigns at this conversion)

 

Group A: 125lb R + 125lb GC = 250lb total - 125lb GC + 525lb R = 650lb R

Group 1: 50lb R - 50lb R + 10lb GC = 10lb GC

Group 2: 50lb R - 50lb R + 10lb GC = 10lb GC

Group 3: 50lb R - 50lb R + 10lb GC = 10lb GC

Group 4: 50lb R - 50lb R + 10lb GC = 10lb GC

Group 5: 50lb R - 50lb R + 10lb GC = 10lb GC

Group 6: 50lb R - 50lb R + 10lb GC = 10lb GC

Group 7: 50lb R - 50lb R + 10lb GC = 10lb GC

Group 8: 50lb R - 50lb R + 10lb GC = 10lb GC

Group 9: 50lb R - 50lb R + 10lb GC = 10lb GC

 

Group 10: 50lb R - 50lb R + 10lb GC = 10lb GC

Group 11: 50lb R - 25lb R + 5lb GC = 5lb GC (I'm going to pretend these people just gave up and fell apart after this trade)

 

So, now you find that Group A has all the resources they need inside a campaign and a better start than anyone else.  Groups 1-8 however have only gold coins left and no resources at all and then get to start working on building up their foundation.  

 

Those 8 groups effectively HAVE to work for Group A because if they lose, they might only get to take out 2.5lb of GC each (25lb GC total).  As they are now working together with Group A, if they swear fealty, they may only get to take out 5lb GC each IF they win (ASSUMPTION is that losers get 25% and vassals get 50% and winners get 100%)  Thus, their initial sale of goods might only net them 5lbs GC for resources that were initially valued at 10lb GC.  PLUS they are forced to work together.  PLUS they have to win.

 

If you say that Groups 1-11 simply will play other campaigns and just kneel out of this one (don't play and lose), they'd be taking a pretty significant loss unless they marked up the value of those goods 400% when they first sold them.  So, let's do that real quick.

 

525lb R = (125lb GC * 400%) (assuming losers get to take out only 25% of their earnings)

475lb R would then sell for 500lb GC a .95 conversion rate.  Well, Group A only has 125lb GC, so they can only afford 131lb R.

 

To conclude this math problem..... Group A would probably be able to gather more resources in the amount of time they spent trying to trade groups 1-11.

Edited by valor

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Can I at least get a chicken-stamped coin? Someone help me out.

 

I need chicken currency.

 

How about coins with a certain quality, randomly stamped animals on them, and ones a chicken.

 

Then we can all fight over what animals worth the most (chicken) and the least (crows, people don't even pick up crows they're so worthless). Right?

 

I'm onto something.

 

And crafters who make coins and are good crafters boom now they're pumping out chickens and chucking crows.

Edited by Zomnivore

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I understand, and the argument works against its self. Bartering is better but people won't barter because coins are easier... You want to force people to use a more cumbersome, time consuming, annoying system?

 

Or have coins and bartering at the same time... Options are good.

 

I think both systems are good and valuable to the economy... as I stated prior to this post however, I think coins won't hold consistent value from player to player which is why I think Primal should not fear the addition of coins.  Yes, crafters will use coins, but guilds with crafters will be willing to barter resources for gear and have the power to create a separate circle of trade that completely ignores coins for 90% of the transactions.  They will be willing to do that because guilds/communities can feed them the resources they need and they won't have to go out and purchase everything off of the market.

 

Now, a rich crafter in the PvP/guild circles may simply have all the best gear and access to the best recipes ect.  They may be completely unable to buy anything though because they've operated within only a certain segment of the game.  This is unlikely I'd say, and so they'd also have their wares out for public sale and will also operate in the "coin exchange".  This would allow them to do whatever things they wanted within the EK that might benefit their goals.

 

I truly hope to see the economy split like this, as IMO it creates for far more emergent gameplay and helps avoid issues like what Primal has stated within campaigns.

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-snip-

that's a good write up. What I'm referring to is not buying resources that players bring in with them to the campaign, but buying resources as the campaign progresses. Nodes in campaigns are the major source of resources, so if I'm holding my own because I'm a zerg and know how to pick my corner but have so much gold pigeon-holed...I can effectively buy resources/fealty from within the campaign for exponentially larger amounts than what I'm carrying in gold. J Todd already stated it's an easier resource to carry. If LW is getting stamped out by LoTD in the campaigns by "Fall", and you know you're up against Zerg Guild 2,3,4...would you not try to buy out LW's resources, offering them safe passage to their embargo areas, and bolster yourself. If I was LW I'd take it just for the pure fact I won't lose everything and might not even make it to the embargo. This situation would not be as easy if there is no common currency for them to walk out with.

Edited by primal

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