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Regarding the Character Creation screenshot


Dyson
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One thing I've noticed from this screenshot is that this game may plan to feature both a listed weapon damage range (15-25 shown in the screenshot) and the ability to both critically hit and increase the % multiplier of critical hits. Stop reading here if I'm mistaken.

 

One of the absolute failures of Shadowbane in terms of attempting to be a competitive game was the sheer amount of RNG associated with its combat system. Upon swinging a weapon at a person you would first get an attack rating vs defense rating check (in which you'd always have a flat 5% chance to miss anyway), followed by a hit vs passive defense roll (block, parry, dodge), then a roll to see how much damage you would actually do depending on your weapons damage range. In Shadowbane, this could all potentially equate to the difference between swinging at somebody for 1k+ (or 300, depending on your damage roll), or missing a guy that only had a 5% chance to actually evade your attack. While such systems may have simply been the norm in older RPGs, I feel that they should have no place in games that are aiming to excel in its competitive PvP combat offerings. They simply make the game much more passive (go figure) and less consistant. I'd much rather see an active system like actually blocking or rolling to evade.

 

The MOBA genre has shown us that even while including critical hit chance and the ability to increase critical hit power, games can still be both competitive and somewhat consistant. My worry is that adding a damage range into this already proven mix might be too much, and (depending on how that listed damage range actually scales into the end-game) the difference in damage that could potentially exist between a low range non-critical hit, and a high range modified critical hit. I feel like having a damage range was Shadowbanes way of actually giving us some sort of "critical hit" system anyway, so if I may ask, what is the thinking behind featuring both?

 

On the plus side the artwork is lovely, and the character creation system looks to have a very strong amount of depth to it for being "pre-alpha".

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what you appear to think of as a "failure" some might think of as "genius"

 

i'm glad we have the Devs we have, if that is the case....

 

Excelsior

Really? I'd love to meet these people, and discuss the strengths and shortcomings of Shadowbanes combat system with them.

 

Do you know where I can find them?

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Really? I'd love to meet these people, and discuss the strengths and shortcomings of Shadowbanes combat system with them.

 

Do you know where I can find them?

 

nope, no clue...i'd never know such a thing ....who am i to even put the Idea forward?

 

silly olde Doc...

 

Excelsior!

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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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nope, no clue...i'd never know such a thing ....who am i to even put the Idea forward?

 

silly olde Doc...

 

Excelsior!

 

Yeah, I figured as much.

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Yeah, I figured as much.

 

hadn't realized you were not cognizant of who people are as well as sarcasm impaired...

 

soOOOooOOOoOOOooooo...

 

you could try the WP and SBG folks here in the Forum

 

devotees to the spec build wonkery...

 

or, i dunno....meh?

 

see...tho i enjoy me some real time combat, there's something called physics that makes it inherently unfair in a competitive environment...

 

ponder that and then we can Dance if ya like

 

oh...yeah....who the fluffly bunnies are YOU anyway? don't know the Name...it's not a bad thing, but ithought i knew most of the SB folks in one way or another

 

i r from Mourning... (thanx Khal!)

 

Excelsior!

FIQw0eP.png

let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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hadn't realized you were not cognizant of who people are as well as sarcasm impaired...

 

soOOOooOOOoOOOooooo...

 

you could try the WP and SBG folks here in the Forum

 

devotees to the spec build wonkery...

 

or, i dunno....meh?

 

see...tho i enjoy me some real time combat, there's something called physics that makes it inherently unfair in a competitive environment...

 

ponder that and then we can Dance if ya like

 

oh...yeah....who the fluffly bunnies are YOU anyway? don't know the Name...it's not a bad thing, but ithought i knew most of the SB folks in one way or another

 

i r from Mourning... (thanx Khal!)

 

Excelsior!

 

So are you actually going to contribute to the subject at hand in any way or?

 

No, probably not. I'd question your ability to do so anyway.

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i have Questioned it...by postulating your baseline axiom is fallacious, and thus the entire thesis is invalid

 

now, i think you are about accurate on the VERY simplist overview of the formulae involved....others here a much more qualified than myself to talk directly about that...

 

but allow me to expand on my point...

 

the very Variables you seem to despise are there for many good reasons, they are...for the most part, adjustable Factors to take into consideration in the physics simulation when it comes to determining combat outcomes, this is more desirable than pure twitch in this kind of game for many reason that Developers may like...

 

hardware on both client and server side...

 

bandwidth

 

the speed of Light

 

to compensate for such factors, formulae such as the one you deride are utilized to engage Players not only in the geek factor of building their toons, but also to adhere to Design principles of balance and systemics desired by tose in charge of Development...

 

your turn there sparkles....why is your way better?

 

Excelsior!

FIQw0eP.png

let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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Oh dear you don't know that some of the devs making Crowfall were Devs from Shadowbane? Or that there is a whole forum where the SB community has been talking with former  SB Devs such as Ashen Temper or the one of the main makers of Crowfall J. Todd Coleman? Here:

 

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/378-wpsbg-dev-ppl/

Edited by gauis
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i have Questioned it...by postulating your baseline axiom is fallacious, and thus the entire thesis is invalid

 

now, i think you are about accurate on the VERY simplist overview of the formulae involved....others here a much more qualified than myself to talk directly about that...

 

but allow me to expand on my point...

 

the very Variables you seem to despise are there for many good reasons, they are...for the most part, adjustable Factors to take into consideration in the physics simulation when it comes to determining combat outcomes, this is more desirable than pure twitch in this kind of game for many reason that Developers may like...

 

hardware on both client and server side...

 

bandwidth

 

the speed of Light

 

to compensate for such factors, formulae such as the one you deride are utilized to engage Players not only in the geek factor of building their toons, but also to adhere to Design principles of balance and systemics desired by tose in charge of Development...

 

your turn there sparkles....why is your way better?

 

Excelsior!

 

The sad thing is you probably think what you've just wrote amounts to at least some amount of knowledge on the subject. Unfortunately, I'm afraid I'm forced to take your trashbaggery nonsense as a "no".

 

I'd rather not waste any further time with the +1 riff-raff, I'll be back when somebody with a clue responds. Toodles.

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The sad thing is you probably think what you've just wrote amounts to at least some amount of knowledge on the subject. Unfortunately, I'm afraid I'm forced to take your trashbaggery nonsense as a "no".

 

I'd rather not waste any further time with the +1 riff-raff, I'll be back when somebody with a clue responds. Toodles.

 

so you have no response to plain english laid out in the form of a proper hypothesis?

 

thought not...

 

Excelsior!

FIQw0eP.png

let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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I do agree with Dyson to an extent. A degree of RNG is welcome, for obvious reasons. It changes how a situation can play out and relieves some boredom that repetitive combat can produce. But it's absolutely a problem when fights can be a "make or break" situation due to the RNG.

 

 

Shadowbane had that problem. You could nuke someone for 300, or for 2000 on a fury, for example - or you could have a 5% chance to miss for literally no reason. It was absolutely silly for a competitive PvP game.

 

I hope that crit doesn't become like that. For instance, in World of Warcraft gaining crit of 40-60% was possible in the past. It's silly. In League of Legends they actually removed starting small % crit chances like we see in the crowfall screenshot because they swung the gameplay massively outside of the skill and actions of the players involved. That is a problem, and it pushes away serious competitive gamers while convoluting statistics for characters.

 

Dyson's OP didn't say to remove all RNG. It did say that to be competitive having both crit chance and a wide damage range on attacks is a bit silly. Which it is, especially if it's indicative of even more RNG mechanics to follow. Look at Hearthstone. Google RNGStone and you will see just how silly it can be when the results of a competitive game can be so clearly influenced by 50/50 rolls and other RNG crap.

Edited by taroskin

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Guardians of Moonforest fangirl

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I'm hoping they shrink the weapon damage range down some.

 

Was one nice thing about PvP in *gasp* SWTOR.  Your force powers did the same damage consistently unless it would crit and the melee damage range was pretty tight.

 

You'd also chain/proc insta crits or a large enough crit bonus to guarantee a crit.  With stat / gear stacking through crafting you could focus on crit % pretty easily.  If they didn't keep nerfing the **** out of the class trees for PvE the launch PvP builds were a ton of fun.  There were random crits, but for the most part you'd create them from intelligent use of powers. But like all PvE games with PvP they couldn't deal with it.  They were more balanced in beta before the first operation was even playable.

Edited by agelmar

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"Agelmar is King of the Hypocrites and Ruler of the Kingdom of Hypocrytia"

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I do agree with Dyson to an extent. A degree of RNG is welcome, for obvious reasons. It changes how a situation can play out and relieves some boredom that repetitive combat can produce. But it's absolutely a problem when fights can be a "make or break" situation due to the RNG.

 

 

Shadowbane had that problem. You could nuke someone for 300, or for 2000 on a fury, for example - or you could have a 5% chance to miss for literally no reason. It was absolutely silly for a competitive PvP game.

 

I hope that crit doesn't become like that. For instance, in World of Warcraft gaining crit of 40-60% was possible in the past. It's silly. In League of Legends they actually removed starting small % crit chances like we see in the crowfall screenshot because they swung the gameplay massively outside of the skill and actions of the players involved. That is a problem, and it pushes away serious competitive gamers while convoluting statistics for characters.

 

Dyson's OP didn't say to remove all RNG. It did say that to be competitive having both crit chance and a wide damage range on attacks is a bit silly. Which it is, especially if it's indicative of even more RNG mechanics to follow. Look at Hearthstone. Google RNGStone and you will see just how silly it can be when the results of a competitive game can be so clearly influenced by 50/50 rolls and other RNG crap.

Exactly. You should lend that other guy your clue for a bit.

 

Anyway, what I'm looking for here is a response from a design standpoint (you know, from a designer) as to why both systems are in place. They pretty much do the exact same thing on their own, so why go with both? Are we looking to increase the random element of damage numbers? and if so, why?

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ummm does the phrase "probability curve" hold meaning?

 

when looking at a duel, or small engagement...things might indeed seem too random

 

but over the course of the days and weeks and months and years and many many battles....statistical probability does win out...

 

that's the basis of my Point here, i agree things can be tweaked and or made better

 

but that's far different that automatically gainsaying what is obviously already coded,yes?

 

Excelsior!

 

 

FIQw0eP.png

let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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I really hope we can keep our numbers to reasonable amounts. The quoted critical damage from a SB Fury is a just a tad over the top I think we can all agree. One doesn't usually see such a gulf in damage numbers like that in MMORPG's these days.

Why use 2 mechanics that do the same thing? RPG stats, again I emphasize this, RPG stats, when used correctly in most cases are the flavor to the soup. Damage and Health by themselves would make for a pretty boring soup.  

Thomas Blair
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I really hope we can keep our numbers to reasonable amounts. The quoted critical damage from a SB Fury is a just a tad over the top I think we can all agree. One doesn't usually see such a gulf in damage numbers like that in MMORPG's these days.

 

Why use 2 mechanics that do the same thing? RPG stats, again I emphasize this, RPG stats, when used correctly in most cases are the flavor to the soup. Damage and Health by themselves would make for a pretty boring soup.  

 

will you have mah cyberbabies?

 

Excelsior!

FIQw0eP.png

let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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One of the absolute failures of Shadowbane in terms of attempting to be a competitive game was the sheer amount of RNG associated with its combat system.

 

I disagree with your assumption that RNG determines a failed combat system.  Every game has some element of RNG, and sometimes you'll be on the poorly made socks end of it, but other times you will get the crit and be on the better side.  That's just how the dice roll.  Having RNG makes combat MORE dynamic because you can't go in saying "ok I just need 7 hits to kill him so if I miss 1 swing I should run".  That would make the game super stale.  Not to mention this is a small piece of the puzzle that effects combat.

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