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Dyson

Regarding the Character Creation screenshot

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One thing I've noticed from this screenshot is that this game may plan to feature both a listed weapon damage range (15-25 shown in the screenshot) and the ability to both critically hit and increase the % multiplier of critical hits. Stop reading here if I'm mistaken.

 

One of the absolute failures of Shadowbane in terms of attempting to be a competitive game was the sheer amount of RNG associated with its combat system. Upon swinging a weapon at a person you would first get an attack rating vs defense rating check (in which you'd always have a flat 5% chance to miss anyway), followed by a hit vs passive defense roll (block, parry, dodge), then a roll to see how much damage you would actually do depending on your weapons damage range. In Shadowbane, this could all potentially equate to the difference between swinging at somebody for 1k+ (or 300, depending on your damage roll), or missing a guy that only had a 5% chance to actually evade your attack. While such systems may have simply been the norm in older RPGs, I feel that they should have no place in games that are aiming to excel in its competitive PvP combat offerings. They simply make the game much more passive (go figure) and less consistant. I'd much rather see an active system like actually blocking or rolling to evade.

 

The MOBA genre has shown us that even while including critical hit chance and the ability to increase critical hit power, games can still be both competitive and somewhat consistant. My worry is that adding a damage range into this already proven mix might be too much, and (depending on how that listed damage range actually scales into the end-game) the difference in damage that could potentially exist between a low range non-critical hit, and a high range modified critical hit. I feel like having a damage range was Shadowbanes way of actually giving us some sort of "critical hit" system anyway, so if I may ask, what is the thinking behind featuring both?

 

On the plus side the artwork is lovely, and the character creation system looks to have a very strong amount of depth to it for being "pre-alpha".

We have no idea what combat is like. If it's faster pace action skill oriented I might be willing to agree with you (in terms dodge/parry, crit can be stupid but people like big numbers).

 

If the combat is more traditional a little bit of RNG might not be a bad thing.

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I disagree with your assumption that RNG determines a failed combat system.  Every game has some element of RNG, and sometimes you'll be on the **** end of it, but other times you will get the crit and be on the better side.  That's just how the dice roll.  Having RNG makes combat MORE dynamic because you can't go in saying "ok I just need 7 hits to kill him so if I miss 1 swing I should run".  That would make the game super stale.  Not to mention this is a small piece of the puzzle that effects combat.

See, personally RNG has always been an issue to me myself in PVP based games, I dislike when I can just "get lucky" and left click an enemy one time and crit for an instant kill in games. There's a lack of anything involved other than some randomly generated chance granting this unlucky sod a death and me a kill. Games such as Street Fighter / Tekken and BlazBlue all thrive without the need for RNG to keep their game fresh, as long as you provide both sides with a decent amount of things they can do re-actively you won't need RNG to keep your game "fresh". Just give people options against things and make the game equal for both sides with room for outplays and  having a lack of RNG doesn't necessarily mean that a game will boil down to stale gameplay.

 

If crits are to be fed into the game, a system like "every X (successful?) attack" would be way better than "every attack has a % to". That way players could prime crits and give the game some more depth to it.

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What people completely fail to realize that having RNG, even to the amount of Shadowbane isn't completely based on luck. Sure, your character can perform massively different if you get absolutely unlucky, or destroy something in a few seconds if you get extremely lucky (procstalker scoring maximums twice in a row for instakill, heh). But that's not how you deem a build. As Doc has previously argued in this thread, that apparently many players overlook are things like probability curve, raw value averages and so forth. If your characters damage range is 1-25, you can't by any chance rely that he keeps dealing +20 damage per hit, you can at best rely on him dealing +10 damage per hit. Take that into consideration when you build your character. If you build a proc toon, you don't build the character purely based on the procs if the proc chance is 5%, there's a chance you won't proc even once during the entire fight. You build a character that is mediocre without proccing, but if it procs it'll be a beast. For few individual encounters RNG may seem completely luck based, but a characters efficiency isn't hindered by RNG. Stating that RNG is completely luck based overlooks the depth of RNG and the variables included.

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An interesting read on the topic: http://keithburgun.net/randomness-and-game-design/

 

I don't agree with all of his conclusions, but he makes some pretty good points against RNG.

 

Concerning Crowfall I wouldn't mind weapon damage range and crit multiplier that much as long as a best case hit doesn't do much more than 2 times the damage of a worst case hit. With the stats of the released screenshot it's 25*1.25/15= ~2.01 so that'd be pretty okay for me. However, crit damage is probably going to increase so I'd be happy to see a smaller weapon damage range. Or non at all.

And please no random "100% attack damage and its effects"-ignoring dodges. These really have the capability of deciding a battle just by a few dice rolls.

 

A bit unevenness in damage curves, fine.

Turning fights around due to dodges completely negating high damage attacks or important and rightly timed CCs, no-go for me.

Edited by silinsar

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This is what I am getting from the screen shot of Character Creation. 

 

A. It looks to be something you would see in a MOBA or DIablo style game. 

 

B. It looks like its going to be a top down view.

 

C. I hope I am wrong about A&B because I don't want either game styles for this Title.

 

So hopefully they are just taking a new approach to character creation. In that case it looks good. Of course this is Pre Alpha so its all subject to change.

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Gonzo makes it difficult to understand him since he basically dances around the subject for no reason.  But he's more or less correct.

 

"Statistics wins out over a period of time."  

- RNG in small fights will lend itself to the better built characters.  The more 1v1s you do, the more RNG is evened out.

- Statistically speaking, a large fight can be seen as more of a "hundred small 1v1s at once", where character RNG is not important, as it is inherently evened out.

 

"But why is RNG good?"

- It removes the "staticness" from every fight.  Like I mentioned before, it doesn't actually change anything over a long period of fights; however, it makes every specific fight still interesting.

- It gives people who suck SOMETHING.  Sure, a boxer may lose 99/100 fights to a better boxer, but there will be that ONE fight where he gets a lucky hit and KOs.  This keeps him interested in the game.  No one wants to lose 100%, and when it's a pure math environment with no chance, the better player will basically win every time.  Games can't be made entirely for the "better player".

- More stuff to think about in character building.  As long as you can say, "you know what, I want a stable damage, and I'll give up max damage for much more minimum damage", it is good.  The problem, of course, is it needs to be not mathematically wonderful to do so (like it was on shadowbane).  

- It still does a better job than other systems for online games.  It makes a more realistic/smooth approach, since right now, any game with precision aiming/blocking pretty much ****s the bed in a very large scale environment.  Darkfall was silly.  Mortal online is silly.  The games just play/feel awkward and have few cerebral aspects to them.  Chivalry probably did it the best - they realized it got boring fast, and made an arena out of it for casual play.

 

"It makes things interesting".

There's a reason so many bad players would flock to things like "elf mage channies" in Shadowbane.  It's because even though, statistically, they were horrible players, when they DID get a few absurd aoes that killed 7 people at once, they would instantly reassure themselves with how good they are.  Most people don't take an objective stance on everything that occurs to them and say "well that's great, but I died 27 times in yesterdays siege and only got 7 kills, so I'm technically still not doing well.  They just say "omg i'm so good!".  They need that.  Let them have it.

Edited by frobobo

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IMHO, I wouldn't mind if they put most of the combat calculations "under the hood" and just give players an approximation.  For example, that they are "strong, very strong, herculean" or that their chance to deliver a crit is "good, excellent, outstanding" etc.  Flatten the curve and keep the break points variable.

 

The reason is that once the PVP number crunchers get to work, they seem to suck all the adventure and spontaneity out of combat.  You end up with a series of FoTM "must have" builds and cookie-cutter characters.  Look at Elder Scrolls Online where early on everyone was staff/cloth magic blasters.

 

I realize E-Sports is very popular these days.  But if it all ends up being an exercise in XL spread sheets and key-binding, it just sounds like drudgery.

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Coming at the RNG thing from a MOBA standpoint- look at World Of Tanks.

 

Here is the SIMPLIFIED explanation of how it works.

 

There is a huge amount of RNG involved, yet it is all based on very detailed calculations of trajectories and such based on the skill of the player pulling the trigger.

 

In other words, where you point the gun vs. how the target tank is oriented (both player decisions) greatly affects the outcome.  You might do no damage at all with a giant gun, or if your tiny gun struck the one weak point in the armor and managed to cook the ammo... BOOM!

 

These can FEEL purely random to some players, but they are actually based on things like mapping vital locations and armor thickness overlain with randomness to reflect things like gunner skill.

 

Similarly, the RNG element in FRPG combat is intended to shorthand this kind of realism.  Frankly, it is now possible to abandon that model in favor of actually mapping armor coverage and vitals.  I support this.  However, even such a system requires a great deal of randomness to work effectively.

 

Such a RNG system also provides an effective way of "leveling" characters without the astronomical power differences that most MMOs suffer from.  Instead of inflicting 10,000 damage, the high-level character is more likely to hit exactly what he's aiming at.

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Gonzo makes it difficult to understand him since he basically dances around the subject for no reason.  But he's more or less correct.

 

"Statistics wins out over a period of time."  

- RNG in small fights will lend itself to the better built characters.  The more 1v1s you do, the more RNG is evened out.

- Statistically speaking, a large fight can be seen as more of a "hundred small 1v1s at once", where character RNG is not important, as it is inherently evened out.

 

"But why is RNG good?"

- It removes the "staticness" from every fight.  Like I mentioned before, it doesn't actually change anything over a long period of fights; however, it makes every specific fight still interesting.

- It gives people who suck SOMETHING.  Sure, a boxer may lose 99/100 fights to a better boxer, but there will be that ONE fight where he gets a lucky hit and KOs.  This keeps him interested in the game.  No one wants to lose 100%, and when it's a pure math environment with no chance, the better player will basically win every time.  Games can't be made entirely for the "better player".

- More stuff to think about in character building.  As long as you can say, "you know what, I want a stable damage, and I'll give up max damage for much more minimum damage", it is good.  The problem, of course, is it needs to be not mathematically wonderful to do so (like it was on shadowbane).  

- It still does a better job than other systems for online games.  It makes a more realistic/smooth approach, since right now, any game with precision aiming/blocking pretty much ****s the bed in a very large scale environment.  Darkfall was silly.  Mortal online is silly.  The games just play/feel awkward and have few cerebral aspects to them.  Chivalry probably did it the best - they realized it got boring fast, and made an arena out of it for casual play.

 

"It makes things interesting".

There's a reason so many bad players would flock to things like "elf mage channies" in Shadowbane.  It's because even though, statistically, they were horrible players, when they DID get a few absurd aoes that killed 7 people at once, they would instantly reassure themselves with how good they are.  Most people don't take an objective stance on everything that occurs to them and say "well that's great, but I died 27 times in yesterdays siege and only got 7 kills, so I'm technically still not doing well.  They just say "omg i'm so good!".  They need that.  Let them have it.

 

Eh, this is a bit overanalysing. You're ignoring that he's not saying "RNG is bad, remove it all". He's saying "yes, RNG has its place. But it needs to be implemented properly and deviation shouldn't make or break engagements". This is a good time to look at league of legends - there is RNG involved, but it's highly competitive. They reformed their crit system because it was causing distorted results for literally no reason. Let me know when "it all evens out over enough games, matches, duels or fights!" matters when a world tournament is lost because a dice roll hit the 3% crit chance to deal 380 damage instead of 150 at level 1. That's an extreme example - but a real one in terms of league of legends. That's why it was changed.

 

Instead of having small crit chances building incrementally, they moved to a system where characters didn't get crit chance immediately. You had to spec for it. This removed the global RNG at super small 1-5% chances that swung fights for literally no reason. But it kept the interest in RNG there by allowing items and specs to increase it in consistent amounts (20% chance for example), instead of rare 1-hits (3%) or fight turners.

 

There is literally no reason talking about why RNG is good here because no one is saying that it's bad. The point being made is that when implemented poorly, or too much of it, can be terrible. Especially in competitive environments - because it doesn't matter how it "evens out" over a duration if a single important match, engagement or defining moment is lost to a dice roll.

 

Frankly, it's a bit curious to have damage number ranges and low-rare-chance crit chances. They are almost the exact same mechanic, but stacking the foundations of the combat system on a double-RNG roll from the getgo, with ridiculously low chances to reduce consistency (5% in the screenshot, for example). It's kinda poor, especially if there are passive defense systems (block, evasion, parry, etc) to follow to further exacerbate just how many "rolls" there are in a simple attack. But we'll have to see if those things exist.

 

Saying it "adds flavour to the soup" is a bit aggravating and condescending honestly. Everyone here knows that it's supposed to add flavour by producing variable scenarios that players need to respond to. You don't have to have 5 different RNG systems doing the same thing to achieve that, for example. You can still have RNG and consistency, and LoL & DoTA are living proof of that.

 

The point of this conversation I think is essentially "please don't let this be telltale of many more heavily variable RNG mechanics, because SB was plagued by that and it's crap. It is not modern, competitive or interesting to have so many very small % chance variations define gameplay, look at X Y Z games which have had this issue and resolved it", and seeking a resolution to that worry. I do not want 5% chance to crit, 3% chance to proc, 25% chance to be blocked, 5% chance to be parried, 15% chance to miss on top of a 10-25 damage range and 200% crit rate. I do also hope that there'll be a modernised RNG system being used (Shadowbane was hard-RNG. 5% chance, period.) - many games use this now, if you have a 5% chance for something to happen, and it doesn't, it will increase by X% chance until it does happen, whereupon it resets down to 5% again. This increases consistency and is used in pretty much every major competitive game with RNG - even world of warcraft, League of Legends, DoTA.

 

This is what we're looking to speak about! Not the "soup" explanation for the twelve year olds, hehe ;)

Edited by taroskin

Crazy Talk co-co-co-gl

Guardians of Moonforest fangirl

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As much as I tend to get screwed over by RNG in terms of dice rolls for loot, I personally feel it belongs in combat.  No one will swing the exact same way, hitting the exact same spot, every single time.  Now, granted, I don't feel the range should be huge, but variation makes sense.  Does a baseball player hit the same pitch every single time?  No.  If he knows it's coming?  Well, that's more likely.  Does a boxer always dodge a jab?  No.  If he knows it's coming?  Again, more likely.  There should be SOME variation, SOME chance...  but I don't feel it should be a make or break.  I've been equally lucky in a chance dodge or parry as a chance crit landing me on my ass.

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If crits are to be fed into the game, a system like "every X (successful?) attack" would be way better than "every attack has a % to". That way players could prime crits and give the game some more depth to it.

Except if you do that, skilled players will go attack a mob for X minus 1 attacks and then go PvP with a loaded weapon ready to crit.

 

Since you brought up fighting games, I'll bring up SSBM.  Peach can pull a stitch, Luigi can missfire, Game n Watch's Hammer, having RNG doesn't make those moves suck.  Peach can still use turnips, Luigi can still side B to recover, and GnW can still use the hammer for damage.  The point is sometimes you don't rely on the RNG but you know it's there to help you.

 

Even if you have a percent chance to crit, it will still average out to one every X attack.


HfLOYLH.png

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RNG is another form of risk and reward. Effectively, you are trading damage over time for burst damage. Here's an example.

 

You have three players. P1 hits consistently for 3 damage. P2 has 3 armor. Whenever P1 hits P2, he does 0 damage. Enter P3. P3 has a 1/3 chance of hitting, but he does 9 damage when he hits. He still does the same average damage as P1, but he can actually damage P2 for 6 damage if he hits. So who is the better fighter?

 

The answer is that P1 is a better fighter against unarmored opponents, while P3 is a better fighter against armored ones. One is not necessarily "better" than the other: they're just better suited to different situations. The problem occurs when the game is balanced in such a way that it generally favors one over the other.

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I really hope we can keep our numbers to reasonable amounts. The quoted critical damage from a SB Fury is a just a tad over the top I think we can all agree. One doesn't usually see such a gulf in damage numbers like that in MMORPG's these days.

 

Why use 2 mechanics that do the same thing? RPG stats, again I emphasize this, RPG stats, when used correctly in most cases are the flavor to the soup. Damage and Health by themselves would make for a pretty boring soup.  

*struggles to contain himself*

 

GAAAAAAAAAAH why is it always STATS 

 

*broods*


#CrowFallBata


~Sweet Sensations~


puppy punch Count: 28

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"Oh this game has crits, WHY? Crits are RNG! RNG is BAD! I want a skill based game, not an RNG based game!"

 

Consider a combat in a magical game with no RNG at all. Attacks always hit, always do the same damage.

 

Your opponent hits you for 6 damage. You have 20 hp.

 

You hit him for 7 damage, you know he also has 20 hp.

 

You fight to the death, and since you are such a skilled player you win after 3 rounds!

 

 

Enter, the power of RNG!

 

Your opponent hits you for 6 damage still, and you still have 20 hp.

 

You hit your opponent for 7 damage still, and he also has 20 hp.

 

First round he hits you for 6, you have 14 hp, you hit him for 7, he has 13 hp.

 

Second round, he hits you for 6 damage, you have 8 hp, and you miss him! Damn RNG!

 

Third round, he crits you for 12 damage. Damn stupid RNG! Now you lost a fight which by all rights you should have won, because you are a skilled player.  You were just robbed of your kill by the evil RNG, which removes all skill from the game and lets stupid newbs win fights easily. This is probably the worst MMO ever!

 

If only there was a way to turn the RNG in your favor.  Like, if there was a way to retreat when a battle is going poorly, to flee away, heal, and return to fight again. Or if there were abilities you could use to mitigate the effects RNG, to heal up from a nasty crit, or to hit your enemy more effectively and avoid misses. But hey, you are a skilled player! A skilled player like you shouldn't have to actually think and use strategy, you should just be able to go and kill people, without RNG getting in the way.

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